Talk:Halloween

Moved section on "Hindu Halloween"

This article is about Halloween as it is traditionally observed in the West - meaning a specific holiday. This material didn't really belong here; I'd suggest creating a wholly new article if sources are available. For now, I've moved it to Halloween around the world under the "India" subheading. DigitalHoodoo (talk) 19:59, 6 October 2010

Where is Halloween celebrated?

The current article is largely void of information on where Halloween is celebrated. The infobox reads "Observed by: Around the world" which could mean Central African Republic, Bhutan, or anywhere else. I'm not advocating a geobiased approach but the holiday is obviously more substantial in some parts of the world than others and this should be reflected in the article. A cursory look at the Halloween around the world article reveals that only 3 or maybe 4 countries widely and currently celebrate a holiday called Halloween on 31 October (i.e., not 2000 years ago, not like Halloween but on a different date, and not only by twentysomethings in urban nightclubs). This information should be noted in the article as well. — AjaxSmack 01:44, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

The article is written very much from a US perspective. The section called Around the world might just as well be called Not here in the USA. As an older Australian, I had never heard of it as a kid, but Aussie kids now annoy other people at Halloween because they saw it on American TV programs here. They ahve no idea what it's about. And we defintiely DON'T call it a holiday. HiLo48 (talk) 06:38, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, what's the best way to remedy this? It's mainly an Anglo-Irish-American holiday (though I'm happy it's spreading elsewhere), so it seems fitting that the article is a bit US-centric; maybe we just need to state where it is celebrated clearly in the head? I'll make a change and see what happens. DigitalHoodoo (talk) 15:11, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Is "holiday" even the right word? I would say it's a "day", or even a "festival". But it's certainly not a "holiday": It is not a public holiday in any country I know of, and anyone who celebrates it for religious reasons will refer to it by one of the other names. Can we please use a more appropriate name? Christmas, Eid, Hanukkah, Samhain = religious holidays. Depending on which country you're in, Bastille Day, American Independence Day, Nationalisation of Oil Industry Day are public holidays. Halloween, Father's Day, Maple Syrup Saturday etc are NOT holidays. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.6.35.235 (talk) 23:52, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

It IS called a holiday in the USA. You might want to look at the Holiday article and associated spin-offs. It's in a bit of a mess at the moment, at least partly because I and other non-Americans pointed out to less well informed editors there that what they call holidays are not called holidays elsewhere. One thing WIkipedia is doing is educating all English users that there are many "acceptable" ways of spelling and using it. I see it as a real positive. HiLo48 (talk) 00:23, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

It IS NOT called a holiday in the UK. The use of the word holiday in relation to Halloween in the UK is misleading. It may be a holiday in the US or elsewhere, but it is not a holiday in the UK.--62.249.233.80 (talk) 09:15, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

shouldnt "origin of name" be etymology?

just sayin'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.49.104 (talk) 13:24, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Sexy Costumes, Neutral Point of View

This bit:

"Another popular trend is for women (and in some cases, men) to use Halloween as an excuse to wear sexy or revealing costumes, showing off more skin than would be socially acceptable otherwise."

Does not reflect a neutral point of view and should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.199.122.189 (talk) 20:47, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

In what way?Slatersteven (talk) 20:59, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

What should be removed? The sentence or the costume? (Sorry, I couldn't resist). I agree, though. It's POV, and not supported by any relevant source. Be bold. Eastcote (talk) 21:54, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

If we need a source, perhaps a newspaper article commenting on the trend toward sexy costumes, such as http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/19/fashion/19costume.html , would do the trick? Or do we need something more scholarly than the NY Times? 206.208.105.129 (talk) 16:54, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Works for me. Eastcote (talk) 19:00, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Looks good. Thanks for the ref, IP. DigitalHoodoo (talk) 15:08, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I'm not sure I wholly agree...(and the ref needs to actually be added in there, not just put in the talk page..)The reference certainly supports the assertion that more sexy costumes are becoming the norm. HOWEVER, I don't think the implication asserted, that it's "to use Halloween as an excuse to wear sexy or revealing costumes, showing off more skin than would be socially acceptable otherwise." is supported by the reference. Having read through it, those terms don't show up ("socially acceptable" only show up in relation to mens' costumes), and I don't think that that argument about motivation is made specifically anywhere. I think it's a slightly POV statement to imply motivation rather than to state the fact that more sexy costumes are becoming the norm for women, especially since the article supports the latter, not the former. I added the reference, but removed the bit about motivation, especially since it implies subjective words (how do you quantify what is socially acceptable? Excuse implies a value judgement too).Jbower47 (talk) 14:17, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm posting a comment for the first time in ages because this sentence really stuck out like a sore thumb for me as a neutral reader. I don't agree that the sentence about sexy costumes should be here at all! I'm not a prude, but the best we can come up with is an article from back in 2006 - and the practice is hardly a 'popular trend' for Halloween anyway! 'Popular trends': pumpkins, dressing as witches, fireworks, etc. But if you take that phrase out of the sentence, you might as well mention ANY way of dressing, which is hardly relevant in an article for Halloween. This sentence shouldn't have made it into the article before it was locked for the day. I say let's lose it after the lock is removed. Peripathetic (talk) 16:00, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Main Image

I have changed the main image on this page to what, in my view, is a more traditional, representative image of a Jack-o'-lantern. Full disclosure: it's my photo, and I also carved the pumpkin. I'm just putting a note here to say that I didn't make the edit purely for selfish, parochial reasons - I also genuinely think mine has a much more "classic" look than the (very finely carved) one it replaced (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jack-o%27-Lantern_2003-10-31.jpg). It's also already the main image for the "Activities involving pumpkins" section of the Pumpkin page.

If anyone strongly disagrees with the above, please message me before reverting the edit to explain why, as a courtesy :) Lost Number (talk) 12:38, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't really have a preference between the two images. But sorry, while your carving is a very nice job, it's not what I would consider the "traditional" face of a jack-o-lantern. Eastcote (talk) 13:46, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Props for the carving, but what about it makes it more "classic"? I like the old, classic one better. Yves (talk) 05:25, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Is niis ? äuä d bire füess —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.94.41.166 (talk) 12:44, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh dear!

This article when downloaded as a PDF or printed, produces 13 pages! A bit too spooky, eh?--Tantusar (talk) 01:31, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Haha. If you're spooked by that there's no hope for ya on Halloween. :p --Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 09:24, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Haunted attractions...

...bring in $300-500 mil/yr and attract 400,000 customers?

Definitely inaccurate. I don't think people are averaging $1,000 each at haunted houses.

The 400k figure seems very low, unless only about 1 in 750 people in the U.S. hit the pumpkin patches.

--174.253.150.49 (talk) 03:40, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Johncomm, 31 October 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} Please remove the words 'United Kingdom' in the first sentence because under the linked definition of 'holiday', October 31st is not a UK Bank holiday and Halloween has no official recognition as a festival.

cf Official UK Bank Holidays: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/LivingintheUK/DG_073741 Johncomm (talk) 09:14, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

 Done -Atmoz (talk) 20:45, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Edit request for Around The World section

I'd like to include a note in the Around The World section:

Although commercialism has caused Hallowe'en to be 'celebrated' in the UK, many people resent this as it is causing the local custom and practice of Bonfire Night (5 November) to be forgotten.

Philwadey (talk) 12:30, 31 October 2010 (UTC) phil Philwadey (talk) 12:30, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Holiday?

As an English person, I do not think the term 'holiday' is appropraite for Halloween. It is not a holiday as far as I am aware in the US, and certainly not in the UK. We would call it a 'festival' I suppose. Is this an example of American English? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.104.56.25 (talk) 13:21, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I think usage of "holiday" in the USA is different than in the UK. Halloween is a "holiday" in the USA, but so are Mothers Day and Groundhog Day. (And of course while Brits go "on holiday", Americans go "on vacation"). Eastcote (talk) 00:12, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Siwatkins, 31 October 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} Article description is incorrect: "Halloween (or Hallowe'en) is an annual holiday observed on October 31, primarily in Canada, Ireland, the United States and the United Kingdom."

It is not the case that Halloween is a Holiday observed in the United Kingdom. The date is recognized as a significant date, and some traditions associated with Halloween are practiced. But it is not an observed Holiday by UK definition; such usage is American in nature. See Holiday definition in Wikipedia to see why the article cannot represent Halloween as an observed Holiday in the UK (and possibly other locations).

Siwatkins (talk) 13:36, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

 Done -Atmoz (talk) 20:45, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Its the ambiguity of the definition of holiday. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, and school's are off during Halloween as observance is warranted. Its true as Halloween is historically Irish/Scottish (Gaelic), observance is much less in England where November 5th (Guy Fawkes Night) is more widely celebrated.LisaSandford (talk) 21:30, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

should not quote name of some random historian

remove the historian's name from the first line of the Halloween page. Should not be a listed source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Steuss (talk • contribs) 19:51, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Ellcom, 31 October 2010

{{edit semi-protected}}

Halloween is also an active holiday in england and wales where many people trick or treat. This should be added to the list of places that celebrate halloween. Ellcom (talk) 22:15, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

It is not celebrated to the extent of those listed (which editors on this talk page have mentioned) where Guy Fawkes Night is more widely celebrated, hence other places link is sufficient.LisaSandford (talk) 22:43, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Agree. With its Gaelic roots Halloween is big in Ireland and Scotland, then later when it arrived in Canada and United States. Those are the primary celebrators today. England on the otherhand its been Guy Fawkes night on the 5th of November that has taken precedence.Tír na nÓg 1982 (talk) 21:07, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. The near opposite of this requested edit was done above. At the time, it had not been previously discussed on the talk page and was not vandalism (the reason for the protection), therefore it was fulfilled. Further, it has garnered the support of several others above. Any more changes of this nature will require a consensus on this talk page. Seeing none, this request is not done. -Atmoz (talk) 23:58, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Guising just in scotland

The article says "In some parts of Scotland children still go guising. In this custom the child performs some sort of trick, i.e. sings a song or tells a ghost story, to earn their treats." The main article on trick or treating also mentions guising in Ireland. Its hallowe'en here right now, and the streets of Dublin are filling with kids going trick-or-treating, some of them are performing stories, poems, songs etc to get their treat. So the article should mention that children in Ireland still go guising too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.141.75.182 (talk) 19:19, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I live in Glasgow, in Scotland, and every single child has performed for their sweets, as I did when I was young, and the concept that a child would get anything without telling a joke, singing a song, reciting a poem, or something like that, is completely alien. So I feel the statement in the article "In some parts of Scotland children still go guising" is also misleading as it doesn't represent that this is far and away the common experience everywhere in Scotland. Indeed not to go guising - that is, as defined in the article, not to perform before being rewarded with sweets, nuts, apples, or whatever - would be exceptional, rather than the other way round as the statement implies 82.12.122.147 (talk) 23:54, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Halloween in the United Kingdom

The recent changes appear to imply that Halloween is observed in Scotland, but not the rest of the United Kingdom. Halloween is celebrated in the United Kingdom, but not really as a "holiday". This would incorrectly suggest that the traditions do not exist in the rest of the UK. Also, Halloween is not an official holiday in any of the other countries mentioned. I would suggest changing the world "holiday" in the first sentence with another word, possible "celebration", "festival" or "tradition". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.207.152.34 (talk) 00:50, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

The key word is "primarily" observed..ie.chiefly. Again, Halloween is historically Irish/Scottish (Gaelic) and is widely celebrated in Ireland and Scotland, observance is much less in England where November 5th (Guy Fawkes Night) historically is. There are two seperate customs within the UK hence it was clarified. It would be misleading to name other nations (in the UK) where Halloween is not chiefly observed as English editors have mentioned on this talk page.LisaSandford (talk) 02:47, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Need semi protect

I think it should become a wikipedia policy that 5 days before and 5 days after the day of halloween, the page should become semi-protected. Just food for thought --Jab843 (talk) 23:10, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Celtic origins?

What historical and/or archaeological sources do we have that support the theory that Halloween goes back to customs and practices of ancient Druids and the Celts of the British Isles? No a single one, I would presume. What we have is some secondary literature. Wouldn't it be a question of honesty to stress the fact, that we know near to nothing about Celtic religion and customs and, therefore, cannot connect our modern day Halloween with ancient Druidic practices?.