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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Gaandolf (talk | contribs) at 21:08, 6 January 2011 (→‎2011 ??!! ?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Has this ended?

I think the title "Financial crisis of 2007–2010" clearly implies that this has ended. But I see no indication in this document that it has ended, or more importantly, how that was determined. I would suggest "2007-present", but I believe there is a policy against using the word "present" at all. So unless there is objection, I will plan to change the title to "Financial crisis beginning 2007". Darxus (talk) 15:58, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I just noticed that this was recently discussed and resulted in changing the title from "2009" to "2010". This is still very misleading. I saw the title and thought "Did it end? How was that determined?" Darxus (talk) 16:02, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Darxus, I was going to suggest same thing and then noticed it had been done already time and time again.--JosephMifsud (talk) 20:03, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I changed it. Viriditas changed it back, stating "Financial crisis beginning 2007, is not standard or recommended." on my talk page. Where is the standard? WP:MOS#Longer_periods does not appear to include it. Darxus (talk) 22:27, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's hardly a consensus considering JosephMifsud's account was created to "agree" with Darxus.[1] In any case, the current title is accurate and does not imply that anything has ended since 2010 is a new year. Financial crisis beginning 2007 is unprecedented. We don't have open-ended article titles. Viriditas (talk) 22:39, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I did not claim consensus (or create the JosephMifsud account). I asked where the standard is. Where is the standard? Darxus (talk) 23:02, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#Range_of_years_which_has_not_ended Darxus (talk) 03:36, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Some people believe that the "Great Recession" has already ended due to GDP stats and the like. How come there is no reference in this article to show this? Several economists have said that since June 2009, it's already started to "look up" a bit. ★Dasani★ 01:51, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please be respectful of other peoples opinion, just because you think so doesn't mean I believe so. South Bay (talk) 01:54, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not being disrespectful to you at all. I've not inserted my personal opinion to this page. Just sayin' that some economists think it's over already. Why is this not stated in the current article? Wikipedia seeks to provide a fair, unbiased sort of community that represents no specific point of view whatsoever, while managing to cover all aspects of the issue at hand. Don't take it so personally. ★Dasani★ 07:53, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think this should be renamed to "Financial crisis of 2007– ", very much like the "1960 Bar" on the Vietnam Campaign Medal. Unless and until either this administration or the business leaders in the United States can figure out how to get un- and under-employment combined down under 5%, the recession lives on. Lowellt (talk) 19:43, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The fact is, few/no official agencies or governments have stated that the international financial crisis is over(at the very least there is no consensus). To put 2007-2010 is not only misleading, but puts a huge dent on the credibility of this article. It's like if someone wrote that the the War in Afghanistan ended in September. It's totally disingenuous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.176.2.223 (talk) 22:26, 7 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Calling an end to "crisis"

  • I am not going to weigh in on whether the recession is over, however I would suggest that a very clear deliniation be made between the ongoing Late-2000s recession and the Financial crisis that precipitated the recession. It is becoming increasingly clear that the financial crisis ended in 2009 when large bank failures came to an end, liquidity returned to the markets and the asset prices began to return to pre-crisis levels. The recession, however is ongoing. Almost by definition, I don't think you can have a 3-year long "crisis". When most politicians or reporters refer to the "worst financial crisis since the great depression" it is now used in a past tense. I think dating the end of the crisis phase to 2009 is appropriate. |► ϋrбanяeneωaℓ • TALK ◄| 16:14, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't know why the article was moved to Financial crisis of 2007–2010. Coz the economic data show that all major countries, including US, Japan, EU , Russia, China and India are out of the recession. Yes, I admit the economy is still very terrible, but that is just what we "feel", the economic data should be the most authoritative. Currently there's no obvious economy growth doesn't mean it's still in the crisis or recession--1j1z2 (talk) 07:38, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it is almost certain that the financial crisis is over, but it would be nice if we could can get some reliable sources that state that as well. Does anyone have links to any newspapers, financial blogs or magazine articles that have stated that the crisis is over? LK (talk) 10:41, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A quick google search brings up some articles that state that the financial crisis is over. If a kind soul could mine the search results and add it as appropriate to the article? Thanks, LK (talk) 10:45, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, as has sometimes been said, it's not over until it is over. There's still a lot of trouble in the financial system, and it still could fold up at any moment. It's best not to give the impression that it ended last year when it might have not, although it would be good to state that many believe that it is presently over. --Patricius Augustus (talk) 16:46, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • If there is another financial crisis in 2010 or 2011 wouldn't it make sense to have a separate article, distinct from this one relating to that crisis? I think it is pretty clear that the crisis is ended. If we have another crisis - it is not a big deal at that point to reconsider naming but at this point there is no reason to wait around for another crisis to decide on the name of this article. |► ϋrбanяeneωaℓ • TALK ◄| 16:55, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • If there were a crisis this year, and if it is clear that it would be a continuation of the crisis we're talking about, then it would make sense to include it in this article, since it would be clearly an expression of the "2007-2009" crisis, and not a new crisis. This could happen, let's say, if the government prop-ups for the failed banks end up folding, and the banks fail. The crisis is not over in reality (or beneath the surface, if you will), it has just been masked and cushioned with a lot of bailouts and inflated money. There are also a lot of smaller, non-TARPed banks still failing, and this provides a window into what would have happened if the banks had not been bailed out. And in response to your point about waiting until another crisis, I do not advocate waiting until another crisis, I advocate until the crisis can be said to be over fundamentally, without inflation or bailouts or government support. It is at this point I would be on your side, and declare the crisis over. --Patricius Augustus (talk) 12:20, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The reasoning on calling the bounds of a biz cycle are fairly clear. Capitalist Accumulation assumes an ever increasing arc but one punctuated by these crises which are generally crises in Capitalism and not crises of Capitalism. The exception is the great Bear Market which was a Crisis (Marxian) and all other crises are measured against it. When the secular trend of equity share prices has a continually positive second derivative over sufficiently large subintervals after passing the low of the cycle and with an overall duration of the downturn comparable to the reference epochal and other cycles, then the crisis is considered over. The overall process can be based against a curve underlying the low points of the overall historical share price curve since 1929 (the implicit monotonically increasing secular arc of accumulation). 72.228.177.92 (talk) 18:34, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Great Depression had two separate and distinct collapses, with a period of quasi-recovery in between. Does anyone here suggest that, because of that period in between, it be separated into two separate articles? With the benefit of hindsight and just a little historical perspective, we might be able to set end points for the current situation, dividing as necessary. Here and now, the citable sources are far too divided on everything except that GDP rose (barely) -- and not everyone agrees on that as a valid definition in any case. (It might have been more generally acceptable among experts - as it had been, before - were we not where we are now.) - Tenebris —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.112.29.99 (talk) 08:02, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Regulatory proposals

This section begins with Obama's proposals from June 2009, but does not include the more recent 'Volcker rule" proposals to restrict proprietary trading and other activities. Unless I there is a consensus against this, I will add that information to this section.Nwlaw63 (talk) 21:18, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This section seems seriously out of date, given the financial reform proposal being taken up by congress. Barring any serious objections, I'll try to get to this later this week and add some material about the proposed legislation. Nwlaw63 (talk) 20:31, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As financial reform legislation gets finalized in the U.S. Senate over the next week or so, we should prepare a summary of what gets passed for the Regulatory proposals section. Nwlaw63 (talk) 20:54, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Within the next day I'll add something here on the passing of the bill - I figure a few quotes will be very useful here - maybe one from those satisfied, one from those opposing, and one from those saying it didn't go far enough. Nwlaw63 (talk) 19:58, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This section needs to be updated on what actually took place with the passing of the combined bill. I'll try to get back here when I have more time, but help here would be appreciated. Nwlaw63 (talk) 20:02, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

World map of GDP growth rates

I posted this on the talk page for the image but I'll post it here too. The map of world GDP growth rates shows Botswana's economy collapsing with Zimbabwe's economy slightly rising. I'm no economist but I do read the news; isn't Botswana the one with the relatively thriving economy while Zimbabwe is the one with the collapsing economy?

Right now Botswana is the country in southern Africa that is dark brown (i.e. decreased 8-10%) while Zimbabwe, to its immediate northeast, is green.

Zimbabwe gave up on its currency and adopted the greenback. That might have something to do with it, especially considering that "improvement" would be relative to previously rock-bottom (and digging). - Tenebris

"Commodity bubble"?

The main article was "Commodities boom". "Commodity bubble" is POV: unlike with housing, there was never, to my knowledge, any virtual consensus (belated or otherwise) in econ and/or finance about the price run-ups in commodities in this period owing largely (or even significantly) to speculative mania. OK, George Soros thought it was a bubble and said so. He's a great financier, but is he an energy supply economist? The von Mises Institute [2] is used as RS when it's pretty decidedly WP:FRINGE economics; to them, all market failures come down to that dastardly Federal Reserve Bank. If cited at all, the article should at least point out that this is the anti-fiat money, gold-bug wing of the Libertarians.

This whole section could use some work, but perhaps better: drop it entirely? It is very doubtfully part of the article anyway. After all, the article is about a global financial crisis starting in 2007, but what exactly what major financial crisis situations were fed by this commodity price behavior? Yakushima (talk) 14:23, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

External Links are Crazy!

Could someone with more knowledge of the subject and the page please go through and trim the External Links section? Per WP:EL and WP:NOT, we want only a small selection of the highest quality links, not a massive collection of what every random person has said about the crisis. I can do the editing myself, but I'd prefer a more experienced person here do it. Qwyrxian (talk) 14:14, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect pricing of risk

I added a paragraph to the "Incorrect pricing of risk" section. I recently came across a journal article by Charles Calomiris at Columbia which provides a plausible answer to a question that continues to confuse me: why did so many smart, professional asset managers buy so many over-priced credit assets during the bubble? He argues it was a conflict of interest between asset managers and their clients. Bond Head (talk) 18:58, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A little US-centric

This article is a little US-centric. The global financial crisis was just that, global. For instance, Britain took quite a bashing, the United Arab Emirates (Dubai in particular) got utterly rolled over by the GFC while people places like Western Australia and Qatar basically blinked, yawned, and said, "was that it?!" and went back to work. There's plenty of evidence to this effect in the likes of the British, Qatari and Western Australian newspapers.

Also, although the GFC originated in the US, it spread worldwide owing to the interconnectivity of world markets and, in the British and Dubaian cases at least, because much of the same causes (lending money to people who can't pay you back to buy overvalued houses and those loans then wrapped up and sold to other people) were very, and independently, similar to those that occurred in the US.

So I'd suggest that this article be re-modelled a little. For instance, the secion on the "Congressional response" would be more appropriate in its own article entitled something like "US response to the GFC" or some such.

That said, good work all. It's a very difficult subject that does need documenting asap for posterity.

Cheers

Jim —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.80.184.212 (talk) 07:43, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Being Irish myself I do not like to see that the article mainly centres on The US crisis when Ireland's economy was also raped by this Global financial crisis. Dylan (talk) 13:13, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Dito, consider Iceland, where it caused the fall of the government, this was (is?) a world-wide event.--N7bsn (talk) 15:58, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, this is partly true, but is partly warranted. Firstly, general consensus as far as I can tell is that the problem originated in the United States; this alone would call for a focus there. Secondly, the amount of money at stake with respect to the United States likely dwarfed other individual economies, possibly even the EU. Thirdly, the news coverage of American issues likely got wider global coverage, with only Greece, Iceland, and Ireland (all European) coming to mind, and not until after global coverage on the US. I think all those factors, as well as the sheer representation of Americans on Wikipedia, likely account for this. Only some of these factors can be discounted per standing Wikipedia rules, other American-centric issues should stand. Int21h (talk) 23:41, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Citation Missing

In the opening paragraph, the article states: "... declines in consumer wealth estimated in the hundreds of trillions of U.S. dollars..." but there is no citation for this. The same phrase appears on multiple iterations of this article. Is there a real source for this figure? If so, it should be included (and it is something I very much want to find).

Soulfulpsy (talk) 23:28, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Timeline needed

This article badly needs a simple timeline (like in history of Europe) with the dates of the major events at the top of the page. A concise history of the series of events is sorely lacking. Also, every section should link to a main article - or have major "seealso" topics. Would be great to see the editors of this (otherwise really good) page put that in. Wikidea 18:18, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Trimming External Links

I have trimmed the external links section per WP:EL. Please add links with care, making sure that they are allowed by a specific category detailed at WP:ELYES. For convenience of use as sources, I'm listing the links trimmed below. Note that some of these links don't qualify as reliable sources.

Use of PIGS as an Acronym

I'm not certain the use of PIGS as an acronym for Portugal Italy, Greece and Spain (in the 2010 European sovereign debt crisis section) is a wise choice. Even more so since any explanation of the acronym is buried in the foot-notes. I will put an explanation at the first use.--N7bsn (talk) 17:22, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Page is too long, can a summary be added?203.26.177.2 (talk) 00:03, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Duplicate Page

Hi, this page appears to be a duplicate of Late-2000s_recession. How can this be resolved? ldvhl (talk) 11:34, 13 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

2011 ??!! ?

I've left the following message at User talk:Stybn, who changed the title to 2007-2011. It clearly should be moved back to 2007-2010.

It's a bit early, and also a bit late, to call 2011 a financial crisis. Do you have a reliable source that we have been in a financial crisis in 2011? Of course not! It's only been 2011 for 10-15 hours, the markets haven't opened, and there are no news reports on the markets. I'll just note that the Dow has been up for 2 years in a row and that the recession was officially over more than a year ago. So would you move this back to Financial crisis of 2007-2010.

Smallbones (talk) 15:04, 1 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely. I've moved it back. StAnselm (talk) 05:31, 2 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Is it WP:OR to determine the end of the financial crisis solely by the performance of the Dow? At the end of the article, it mentions a second wave is predicted between April to June 2011 with citation, which indicates the risks are still there. On the other hand, the article says nothing about when the financial crisis ended. --Quest for Truth (talk) 10:34, 2 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've just moved the article back again, as it was moved against the consensus of editors here on this talk page. Before anyone else moves it again, please support the move by providing reliable sources that refer to "Financial crisis of 2007–2011", or sources that state that the financial crisis that started in 2007 has continued into 2011. LK (talk) 12:12, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't it OR in itself to claim that the crisis has ended when there are strong indicators of a weak economy to come? I would honestly prefer something like 2007-present. hbdragon88 (talk) 22:21, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, those against the move should also have the responsibility for providing sources that state that the financial crisis that started in 2007 has finished in 2010. In the article Great Depression, it says clearly when the Great Depression ended. It's very strange that the article mentions nothing about the end of the crisis when the title say the crisis is over.--Quest for Truth (talk) 17:55, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I believe it should read "Financial crisis of 2007-2011". The economy did not suddenly jump to normal standards when 2010 ended. There is nothing stated the economic crisis ended yet, so until we have reason to believe the crisis has ended, it should read 2011 instead of 2010. Gaandolf (talk) 21:08, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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