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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 75.27.121.68 (talk) at 08:58, 7 March 2011 (→‎Edit request). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Category:IOS (Apple)

Edit request

I cannot edit the article (since it is locked), but I wanted to add to the criticism section that Steve Wozniak (Apple co-founder) also spoken against the walled garden model of iOS during Campus Party Brazil 2011. http://tecnologia.uol.com.br/ultimas-noticias/redacao/2011/01/22/cofundador-da-apple-diz-que-ipad-nao-tem-concorrente-a-altura.jhtm http://fadel32.wordpress.com/2011/01/24/steve-wozniak-na-campus-party-o-recado-do-pai-do-computador-pessoal/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDrJd7GkkNA&feature=related << start of the video is chopped, the guy in bath clothing asked Wozniak who invented the App Store model. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.150.171.2 (talk) 14:28, 24 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Edit Request

"alongside with the iPad 2" is poor grammar. Should be "alongside the iPad 2"

iOS disambiguation

Why was the disambiguation edit by user StewieK reverted? Is there a reason not to put the template? --WikiKiwi (askme) 11:59, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh don't mind, I guess I realized myself why :) --WikiKiwi (askme) 12:16, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, reading the edit summary helps; WP:NAMB. --Cybercobra (talk) 22:10, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks ;) --WikiKiwi (askme) 02:32, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry if this is off topic, but in the interest of consistency, the disambiguation phrase for iOS is (Apple), for Android it is (Operating System) and for webOS they've decided to add the manufacturer name: HP webOS. If someone has the time and knowledge can they try to bring some consistency to the mobile operating system disambiguation descriptions. Thx --118.92.152.19 (talk) 00:44, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you're curious, there's plenty to read: on this article's talk pages are five discussions of this article's title, and the policies WP:TITLE, WP:PRECISION, and WP:TITLECHANGES. --Pnm (talk) 01:12, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The name, again

I was about to request moving this article to Apple iOS. While I noticed that specific proposal was already discussed, there was not a consensus to leave the title alone. I'm not sure why no one cited WP:PRECISION, which is policy:

If there is a natural mode of disambiguation in standard English, as with Cato the Elder and Cato the Younger, use that instead.

It goes on to summarize the matter succinctly:

Often there is no alternative to parenthetical disambiguation, and it does have the advantage that the non-parenthesized part of the title may most clearly convey what the subject is called in English. On the other hand, such disambiguations may be longer or less natural than an alternate but unambiguous form, when there is one.

It seems like policy would trump the "it's not what Apple calls it" argument. --Pnm (talk) 00:03, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But this way isn't any longer, except the parentheses themselves. The policy does not carte blanche support any particular system, and asks editors to decide on a case-by-case basis. Therefore, specific argument trumps policy (only because policy yields). HereToHelp (talk to me) 00:30, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
When I have time I'll create a move request to iOS. That seems to make the most sense IMO. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 14:43, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
IOS can also refer to Cisco IOS, which is also a prominent topic. (Because of technical limitations, iOS = IOS.) --Pnm (talk) 16:54, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, but this article outweighs the Cisco one significantly in hits and importance. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:58, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

AirPlay an app?

AirPlay is listed under Included applications. However, it's not an app; it's a feature some apps use. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.169.5.103 (talk) 15:39, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed it and AirPrint from the list of included applications. ~NerdyScienceDude 17:07, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Requested Move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. The discussion has already been relisted, and I had closed and reopened it earlier in the week; though there is a majority in favour of the move on the grounds of being primary topic, even ignoring the anonymous contributors a number of users have left reasonable objections to this and I cannot see how consensus has been established. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 14:32, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]


IOS (Apple) → IOS —

Its been 6 months since the last move request in this direction and since then iOS (Apple) has become even more popular. I think this is worth doing as its increasingly clear that iOS (Apple) is the single primary topic for the name iOS/IOS. Per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC there are several criteria for establishing the primary topic and this article satisfies the majority of them by a wide margin. From the previous discussion all of the other articles aside from Cisco IOS seem to be much less significant than either this or Cisco IOS so I'm not going to cover that ground again.

So lets compare to Cisco IOS. On article traffic stats in December iOS (Apple) had 150000 hits vs only 24000 for Cisco IOS. On Google hits iOS Apple gives 13.8 million hits vs 2 million hits for Cisco IOS. On linked articles iOS Apple has 820 incoming non-redirect links vs only 74 for Cisco IOS. Google News gives only 94 hits for Cisco IOS vs 4331 hits for iOS Apple. Only on Google Scholar does Cisco IOS take a lead with 15700 hits vs only 9400 hits for iOS Apple (including a rather large number of hits for Apple Juice :p). Additionally the hits for the iOS page have increased from 2350 in December 2009 to 17700 this December showing that that page is much more widely used since the release of Apple's iOS in June 2010.

Overall it seems pretty clear that this is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for iOS/IOS.

Of note I will be sticking a notification of this move request on the iOS disambiguation page and Cisco IOS shortly. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:14, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

 Relisted Relisted. Dpmuk (talk) 11:24, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose Cisco is the subject of technical college courses, technical and research studies on networks, and most books about IOS. Therefore Apple's is not the primary topic. Apple iOS would be fine by me though. As well, there's the C++ ios library to consider, which is also very common. 65.94.71.179 (talk) 22:51, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Apple's iOS is now commonly known in the consumer market. Cisco's IOS is virtually unknown (by name) in the consumer market, and even arguably obscure within the tech field, except for those few who work with it directly one way or the other (including those who buy and read books about Cisco IOS). Therefore, people searching for ios are much more likely to be looking for Apple's... per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. --Born2cycle (talk) 22:58, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • IOS is not "arguably obscure." Cisco has about 60% of router market which is an awful lot of devices, and engineers. This isn't a consumer encyclopedia. Not being a household name doesn't make something obscure. --Pnm (talk) 00:37, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Compared to something that is a household name, yes, not being a household name makes it relatively obscure. Apple's iOS gets about 5 times as many page hits per month[1] as does Cisco's IOS[2], and about 10 times as many ghits:
  • About 21,000,000 results for Apple ios[3]
  • About 2,130,000 results for Cisco IOS[4]
That clearly shows that Apple's usage meets the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC criteria: "much more likely than any other, and more likely than all the others combined – to be the subject being sought when a reader enters that ambiguous term in the Search box". This is about as clear a case of primary topic as we ever get. --Born2cycle (talk) 06:39, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You forgot that there are 71.90 million Nintendo Wii systems on the market. Take a guess at what operating system the Wii runs - IOS. Groink (talk) 21:44, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Its not how many implements of a certain "IOS" there are in this world, but how many Wikipedia users want to search Wikipedia for that specific "IOS" that should determine which "IOS" should be the primary topic. Mahjongg (talk) 00:20, 19 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And its hit count has increased through the year quite significantly since last August when the last move request was made. It hardly seems plausible that it will become less important than Cisco IOS in the reasonably foreseeable future. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 09:06, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
For a deja-vous déjà-vu experience, check out the early archives of the iPhone article. Same arguments about Apple's iPhone not being the primary topic because of Cisco's iPhone. Sigh. --Born2cycle (talk) 19:31, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment in the requested move for the St.Louis Blues, WP:RECENTISM is cited saying that the commonn use for the last 40 years is too recent to be considered not covered under recentism. This request says that 6 months is more than enough to be beyond recentism... That's a very large difference. If 40 years is not enough to be unencumbered by recentism, then 6 months is definitely too soon to declare Apple primary. 65.93.14.196 (talk) 13:45, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Claiming Cisco's IOS is primary topic is a lost cause, Apples iOS keeps getting wider publication each month. Cisco's IOS stays just as unknown to the general public as it ever was. Mahjongg (talk) 15:42, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Apple actually licences the iOS name from Cisco[1], the name is still Cisco's property and Wikipedia should keep that in mind. At most, searching iOS should result in a page asking people if they meant Apple's iOS or the Cisco IOS and not defaulting to one or the other. Remember people, the goal is to give as much correct information as possible, not to prioritize the most popular subject. Saying Apple's iOS should be default just because it's more commonly known by end-users is very shortsighted and means you give in to fanboy bias rather than upholding correctness. 84.195.184.253 (talk) 12:38, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment First, your advice (specifically, your idea for an equal dab) violates WP:D. Second, who owns the "IOS" trademark is irrelevant; Wikipedia does not need to "keep it in mind" at all (who owns a trademark is not a criteria for disambiguation). Third, the role of disambiguation is not "to give as much correct information as possible"; on the contrary, the role of disambiguation is to give the very minimum amount of information that can clearly distinguish one use of an ambiguous term from another. (Disambiguation is not a way of giving extra auxiliary information about a topic.) Fourth, the role of primary dabs is indeed to "prioritize the most popular subject" (so you don't waste people's time on obscure, unlikely meanings of a term). Fifth, saying iOS should be default because it's more commonly known by end-users is not fanboying, it's Wikipedia policy for primary dabs. Miracle Pen (talk) 13:19, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • On WP:D this user has a point, while the rules strictly state that there should only be one primary topic if Apple iOS didn't exist then Cisco IOS would be the primary topic, and thus to make it easy to navigate both terms are currently treated as the primary topic on IOS. Even if this article is moved I'd like to continue that practice at IOS (disambiguation) unless it would be confusing. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:09, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support. I can't believe people are still arguing about this. Miracle Pen (talk) 13:19, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose. Why does an Apple product get to take on the IOS namespace? I'm a Cisco engineer, and am quite sure Cisco IOS has been around a lot longer than the iPhone. A Cisco router, switch or other device is more important than the iPhone - you non-techies just don't see them, as they're behind the scenes running over 90-percent of the Internet world-wide. I'm not saying that Cisco IOS should take the namespace - I'm saying NOTHING should be taking the namespace except for the existing disam page. Everything should stay as-is. Groink (talk) 21:33, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm a techie (software, firmware) and agree with you about the importance of Cisco products in our world. However, I musk ask... are you aware of the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC guideline, what it says, and the reasoning behind it? I'm asking because your comment indicates that you're not. In short, the concept of primary topic has almost nothing to do with the very subjective issue of "importance", and almost everything to do with "likelihood to be sought" by our readers. --Born2cycle (talk) 21:59, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • +1 on the importance of Cisco products in our world. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:14, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • I simply don't think Apple IOS owns the "primary topic" for the IOS namespace as you're claiming. Look back at the argument for "iTouch" when describing the iPod Touch (another argument Eraserhead1 is in favor of) - we've said before in that argument that Google searches is not to be used in a Wikipedia argument when justifying any argument when pitting one idea against another. Per WP:GOOGLE, search engines is NOT a viable method of proving any kind of a point on Wikipedia. "Search engines are sophisticated research tools, but often have bias and results that need to be interpreted. It can be worked around, but you need to know what you're doing." In order to claim WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for Apple IOS to take over the namespace, you need non-Google citations to claim this idea. The only argument I've seen so far is that Apple's IOS is discussed more than any other IOS. I need more. Groink (talk) 22:16, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
          • If you go and read my initial post for this you'll see I've gone through almost all of the criteria mentioned on WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and Apple's iOS meets the majority of them. These include article hit counts and the number of Wikipedia links which Apple's iOS vastly outweights Cisco's. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:35, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
            • You're not getting my initial point. I'm saying that no one article should take the namespace. Not Apple IOS, not Cisco IOS, not Wii IOS - none of them. Using the Wikipedia article traffic stats tool, IOS (Apple) drew in 147,608 hits in December 2010. IOS drew 17,746 hits. One would argue that IOS (Apple) drew more hits than any other article in the IOS disam article. And then, I come out and apply the same idea about "iTouch". ITouch drew 5,649 hits, while IPod Touch drew 393,726 hits. You were claiming in the iPod Touch article that many people would be searching "itouch", when in fact "ipod touch" had more hits. My whole argument regarding the Wikipedia tool is that, like Google and all the other search engines, the number of hits is a by-product of something other than popularity among human beings. My theory is that the majority of Apple IOS' hits are generated by search engine bots. This will be my last post about this, so I'll end it with this note: there are still thousands upon thousands of disam articles on Wikipedia, of which the majority of them take up namespaces other than "XXXX (disamb)" or the like. I don't see a problem with, for example, entering "MB" and come across a disam page with "megabyte", "Milton Bradley" and many other listings. One extra click is not that bad of a deal to me. As a matter of fact, I'm willing to bet that the majority of those Apple IOS hits were direct hits from a search engine, rather than from the IOS disam page. Signing off! Groink (talk) 23:04, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
              • While I did argue on the the iPod Touch article that some brief mention should be made of iTouch I never tried to initiate a move request from iPod Touch to iTouch, as its clearly not the iPod Touches primary name. With regards to MB, it isn't clear that Megabyte is the primary topic, at least Motherboard and MacBook both are sometimes referred to with the name 'MB' and they have the same number of Wikipedia page views.
              • Finally if "One extra click is not that bad of a deal to me." if this is the case then I don't see why you are arguing here at all, as that will be the case for Cisco's IOS if this move request goes ahead - and in fact as Cisco's IOS is clearly the WP:SECONDARYTOPIC I'll try and add a direct link to it from the IOS page. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:17, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
              • (edit conflict)Groink, are you seriously arguing that most people entering "ios" in the search box are not looking for Apple iOS? As I said earlier, even most techies have never heard of Cisco's IOS (or any other use of "ios"), and so are highly unlikely to be searching for it. On the other hand, Apple's iOS is close to becoming a household word. You can dismiss page view counts stats if you want, but the fact remains that even if many of them are from bot crawlers, there must be significant correlation between what bot crawlers are programmed to look up and what real live humans choose to look up. And when you're talking about a difference of almost two orders a full order in magnitude, that leaves a lot of room for error. I suggest you tap into your inner geek , put aside your Cisco-coloured glasses, and try to look at this a little more objectively. --Born2cycle (talk) 23:22, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: This is what most people are looking for. –CWenger (talk) 01:17, 19 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Recentism?

Several people have mentioned that WP:RECENTISM might apply here. I just want to point out some key phrases from that article. I'm not cherry-picking; these are all from the intro and I'm not leaving out anything that implies a different meaning. I'm highlighting elements that don't apply here.

  • "Articles [this is about naming] overburdened with documenting controversy as it happens."
  • Articles [this is about naming] created on flimsy, transient merits.
  • The muddling or diffusion of the timeless facets of a subject [this is about naming, not "facets" in the article content], previously recognized by Wikipedia consensus.

In short, WP:RECENTISM addresses only article content issues - it has no applicability to naming. But even if you tried to extract the spirit of what it says and apply it to naming, it's clearly talking about events and influences that are much, much more recent than something that's been around three or four years. For example, to argue that a cell phone OS is significantly more "transient" than a router OS is a stretch. --Born2cycle (talk) 05:50, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nitpicks aside, I think the spirit of RECENTISM is the simple precept that just because something is newer doesn't mean it's necessarily primary. Sometimes, as with St. Louis Blues, an historical viewpoint is justified, one that looks at which topics are likely to continue to be important far into the future and which are more transient. Perhaps that's a different essay waiting to be written, but the two are related topics. Powers T 13:25, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's one thing to argue that WP responds too quickly to trends that may not have much longevity. I agree that's a good argument. Another good argument is, there is too much famine in the world (I presume you agree with that as well). My point is that arguments have to not only be good, but they have to also apply to the matter at hand to be given any weight.

That the spirit of WP:RECENTISM (for lack of a better term) should apply to a well-known modern OS embedded in cell phones but not to a modern older-but-never-nearly-as-well-known OS embedded in routers has no basis whatsoever. Not even the CEOs of the two companies that own these systems could probably tell us which OS will outlast the other - their longevity can only be reasonably assumed to be comparable. There certainly has been no argument put forward to indicate otherwise. The recentism argument, as it applies to this case, is a red herring. I suggest that desperate attempts to use it belies a rationalization of what ultimately amounts to a classic WP:JDLI argument, at least partially advocated by the understandably biased and flustered employees of Cisco. --Born2cycle (talk) 19:56, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm surprised with how often you reference WP:JDLI, you haven't macroed it so you don't risk a typo like the above. =) Powers T 03:54, 19 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks... fixed. Good eye! The more people that read that essay, the more effective and productive will these discussions be - that why I link to it so much. --Born2cycle (talk) 06:05, 19 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I would say that the 'spirit of recentism' as it were, should be considered for anything less than one year old, as this namechange is less than one year old. Being less than one year in residence, it could just change again (in General, not specifically Apple iOS). 65.93.13.210 (talk) 04:37, 19 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, good point. I was thinking about the age of the OS, not the use of this name to refer to it. However, Apple's obvious commitment to the name (hint: that's why we all know it) indicates they are likely to stick with it. At this point, one could argue that Cisco is the one more likely to change the name of their OS. Ultimately, it's probably a wash. --Born2cycle (talk) 06:05, 19 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Merge "Primary" and "Secondary" apps?

I don't think that "Phone" can be considered a primary app, given that it is missing from both the iPod touch and the iPad. In general, I don't think that there are any inherently "primary" apps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DanielDPeterson (talk • contribs) 10:21, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Market Share

The market share of 15.4%, dated to may 2010, is no longer accurate.

Gartner, the same source as used in the article for the market share as of may 2010, updated the data in november 2010. The Press release can be found here: http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=1466313

According to the data as of November 2010, iOS now account for 16.7% of the Worldwide Smartphone Sales to End Users by Operating System in 3Q10. This puts iOS 4 still on the third place but now behind Symbian and Android instead of Symbian and RIM.

It is furthermore unclear if the source, Gartner, includes iPad in the Worldwide Smartphone Sales to End Users by Operating System. If they do, it would be inaccurate to use the data as a source for smartphone operating systems by units sold, iPad not beeing a smartphone unit.

Sternerst (talk) 09:46, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've updated the figures with the latest data from Canalys. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:10, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of a paragraph on App Store censorship being a reason for jailbreaking

App Store censorship seems like legitimate criticism, but I removed some content from the Jailbreaking section as it seemed like undue weight, and also doesn't seem to be in the right place at all - such criticism would be reasonable on AppStore maybe, or possibly on the Jailbreaking article itself. Thoughts? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:47, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think if we are going to make mention that some users use Jailbreaking to share illegal software, then it is also fair to mention other motivations (i.e., freedom of censorship). -- User: Lajiri
Fair point, its probably worth a sentence or so. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:11, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, a sentence or so linking to the full paragraph at AppStore or Jailbreaking would be best. Thanks. User: Lajiri —Preceding undated comment added 22:22, 19 February 2011 (UTC).[reply]
  1. ^ http://paidcontent.org/article/419-deja-vu-apples-new-ios-brand-is-already-used-by-cisco/
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