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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 116.71.21.50 (talk) at 10:58, 14 April 2011 (→‎domestic network from USSR days). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Merge discussion

It seems much more useful to merge Aeroflot — Russian Airlines terminated destinations into basic article Aeroflot — Russian Airlines destinations. I will bear responsability for maintainig, actualisation (I have access to confidential info from inside of Aeroflot) and protecting from vandalism of the article Aeroflot — Russian Airlines destinations. Thank you! --Dimitree 21:37, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I think the merge is a good idea. As long as the information isn't too cumbersome, having one place with complete and inclusive information is usually better. Thank you for your follow through. And just to comment on you inside information, I'm not sure how that can be used since it can't be verified by other editors. Do they print their routes in those schedule books? ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:31, 22 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • As for inside info, at least, I can verify any kind of information related to Aeroflot's network (actual and historical). At the moment, I can indicate 3 new destinations to which Aeroflot will fly soon (January, 2009) and 2 destinations which will be terminated (March, 2009), but I'm asked not to publish it untill official announce (summer schedule 2009 - end of March)... Dimitree 23:55, 22 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dimitree (talk • contribs)
Interesting. Are there a lot of other airlines now? I thought most former state airlines were struggling now under the weight of big bureaucratic operational procedures compared with innovative startups. Is this not the case in Russia? ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:26, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Exclusion of pre-1992 terminated destinations

Archive of discussion follows:

Hi, Kransky! Don't know if you speak Russian. May I ask you to pay attention to the changes you've done to the Aeroflot destinations article: it contains destinations served by Aeroflot as a flag-carrier of the Russian Federation (not of the USSR), starting from 1992. By that date, Aeroflot already dicontinued its flights to Burma/Rangoon. As well as Gander was used only for a technical stop (refuling, changing crew), not a regular destination. May I ask you to take it into consideration and not to remake it once again. Thank you and good luck! --Dimitree 22:06, 17 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dimitree (talk • contribs)

I do not speak Russian, but it is irrelevant to this issue. The Aeroflot of 1992 is still the same airline of 1982; I cannot see why earlier terminated destinations should not be included. What is the basis of this decision? What consensus has been made? Kransky (talk) 13:13, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
  • You wrote: The Aeroflot of 1992 is still the same airline of 1982. Definitely not! By the year of 1992, Aeroflot reduced twice its route-net. So what is the same in this case?
    • Moreover, if you insist in citating all the routes of Aeroflot, you should start from the year 1923 - when Aeroflot was found, - and include all its local flights to almost each city and village in USSR.
    • Moreover again: Aeroflot in 1992 is a flag-carrier of the Russian Federation, not of the Soviet Union (1982). It means, if you post a flight to Rangoon, for example, you citate the route of the aircompany belonging to a state that no more exists.
  • If you need more arguments, please, see the "Discussion" section of this very page "Aeroflot destinations". Regards, --Dimitree 19:41, 18 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dimitree (talk • contribs)
It is true that airlines evolve and change. Some get larger, some get smaller. But Aeroflot is - literally - the same airline. It is totally wrong to say it is not the same airline. It maintains the same legal structure. Aeroflot wasn't not disestablished on 31 December 1991 and restablished the same day.
I think your views are formed from a scope management perspective (and this is a better argument than your first). We cannot be certain which little villages in Turkmenistan SSR were served by Aeroflot in 1947, so we therefore should not include former destinations, unless all can be counted for. There are sound reasons for this argument, to maintain the core Wikipedia principle of consistency, and to prevent an incomplete list from being a misleading list. On this point, I would say that it would be nice to include some details of Aeroflot's glory days in a manner that would not violate these principles. I would also state that Wikipedia is a constant work in progress, and a good idea that would take time to develop cannot be held back automatically. Kransky (talk) 09:01, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

June 2009

As already explained: This issue has been discussed at length several times. And the broad consensus amongst the editors has been to use the British Airways list as an example. And certainly, the established guidelines do say that regions may be used (though this is not recommended if the number of destinations is small). However, CIS is not a region - it is a political grouping. And whilst the Middle East certainly is a region, the term used by the project is Southwest Asia. Also, regions, when used, should be a subset of the continent said region is a part of. Regards what's in Europe and what's in Asia etc, here's the deal. Many countries are partly in Asia and partly in Europe (Turkey, Russia, Azerbaijan, Georgia etc). Since they identify more with Europe in several aspects (and, of course, for consistency's sake), it's been agreed that they will be listed under Europe. Cyprus, Armenia etc may be members of the EU or of the CoE, but they are physically entirely in Asia - so they get listed under Asia. Their political or cultural leanings are immaterial in this regard. I mean Cyprus could join the South Pacific La-La Union, but that doesn't move the country physically. As for the Aeroflot article, well, we all know no one 'owns' an article (even if they might consider it to be their 'baby'). In any event, changing formatting and cosmetics around to ensure consistency and adherence to established guidelines isn't vandalism; endlessly reverting those edits to meet an individual's vision of the world is! Thanks, Jasepl (talk) 07:24, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

To that end, AGAIN:
  • The CIS is NOT a continent or a region. It is a political grouping.
  • Kastrup International Airport, Fiumicino-Leonardo da Vinci International Airport, Heathrow International Airport etc DO NOT EXIST.
  • This is a list of destinations served (current or historic) by an airline. It is NOT a list of countries and their capital cities. The capital of the Seychelles is Victoria; the airport is in Mahe. No airline flies to Victoria, because, simply, there is no airport in Victoria. Or in Port Louis. Or Manama.
  • Cyprus and Armenia are in Asia. Parts of Turkey, Azerbaijan and Georgia are also in Asia, but they’re considered to be in Europe (at least for purposes of such lists). Just like Russia. If you want, we can move Russia to Asia?
  • See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Airlines/page_content#
Jasepl (talk) 11:03, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As already explained:

  • CIS - I do not care.
  • Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia are always considered to be Asian countries. And please, do not tell that they are going to join any European Unions or their cultures are very close to European - it is not a geographical reason to place them in Europe. It is much more silly considering that Azerbaijan (you place it in Europe) is more distant (phisically) from Europe that Armenia...
  • Cyprus and Turkey (partially) were always considered to be European countries. So it is discutable, but you place Turkey in Europe and Cyprus in Asia. Reasons? No one.
  • I'm not going to enumerate all not existing airports, just citate one [1] and please, say again it does not exist. The same almost for all others airports...
  • To your information:
Luxembourg City (capital of Luxembourg State) has its own airport Findel, even the only one in Luxembourg State.
Capital of Seychelles Islands is Victoria, located on Mahe Island where is also situated Seychelles International Airport, close to Victoria. The same for Mauritius [2], Bahrain [3]. Following your logics, there are no airportss in London, Paris, Amsterdam or Tokyo - no matter where, - because they are not phisically in these cities. So Lisbon Portela Airport or Reykjavík Airport airports, located inside the city territoires, are the only airports in Europe?

Resuming:

    • I agree on eliminating CIS as a political union. Ok..
    • I disagree on placing Azerbaijan in Europe - it is in Asia, no doubt.
    • I diasgree on eliminating capitals of some countries, like Luxembourg, Kuwait City, Victoria, Port Louis and others. These cities were indicated as destinations on each Aeroflot Network Map. Please, see references.
    • I disagree on eliminating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_east because it an oficially recognized geographical region and is indicated on Aerolfot Network Map [4].

Regards, --Dimitree 12:33, 15 June 2009 (UTC). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dimitree (talk • contribs)

October 2009

  • Dispute with User:Jasepl on place of Azerbaijan (Europe/Asia) on the list of Aeroflot – Russian Airlines destinations. Almost all Wiki sources indicate Azerbaijan is in Asia. As well as British Airways destinations, as example for all similar articles, gives the same: Azerbaijan as BA destination is in Asia. But my opponent - User:Jasepl - is not agree with it and is constantly deleting all my revisions placing Azerbaijan in Asia. Moreover, he deleted Azerbaijan from Asia section of BA Destinations in order to falcificate the truth [5]. So I do ask all editors to share their opinion on this issue. Thank you! --Dimitree 13:31, 26 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dimitree (talk • contribs)
  • Dimitree, I have tried to explain to you several times, that the basis for the listing os NOT politics/ethnicity/history or any such intangible criteria. It's physical location that counts.. I will repeat here what you will find in those same Wiki sources you are citing above (and yes, I realise I have already given you this input several times in the past):
  • I'm sorry, but I cannot agree. And that is only because the countries in question haven't physically moved from where they are located. That's not my opinion; it's a fact.
• Europe's land "boundaries" are the Ural mountains to the East and the Caucasus mountains to the southwest - that is a long-established fact.
Also a fact (taken from Europe for the sake of convenience - also see the big map there):
• Armenia and Cyprus are physiographically entirely in Asia.
However,
• Azerbaijan, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Russia and Turkey are transcontinental countries in Asia and Europe.
• Those are all facts, based on their actual physical location - not their political leanings or their group memberships, or emotional ties. A large part of Azerbaijani and Georgian territory is located along or north of the Caucasus mountains.
• So, if you insist on listing Azerbaijan in Asia (since it is transcontinental), then Russia should also be listed as an Asian country. A bigger part of Russia is East of the Urals, right?
• And no, Turkey really shouldn't be listed under Europe; with the exception of Thrace, the rest of the country is in Asia (that's over 97%).
Jasepl (talk) 18:29, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • Jasepl, u can agree or not - everyone is able to do/think everything he considers right. At least here, in virtual reality. No doubts. But there are evident facts, such as geography or physical state of things. And if you look at this [6] or at this map [7], you will see that Caucas is a natural physical border (terminator of white and green) between Europe and Asia. It is that Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia which are below this eventual border, as well as Eastern Turkey (Anatolya) and Cyprus, as you say, are "physiographically entirely in Asia". But you can consider them, for sure, "transcontinental countries in Asia and Europe". Physically they are in Asia by all meanings. Thanks!
    • P.S.: also, I'd like to discuss why you have excluded Middle East from Aeroflot list of destinations? Please, do not say that it has been agreed on using "BA Destinations" as the only one and unique example. --Dimitree 19:05, 27 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dimitree (talk • contribs)

Move page

Aeroflot - Russian airlines destinations → Aeroflot destinations — The airline article is titled Aeroflot; this move would make the related destinations article's title consistent (with both the "parent" article and other such destination articles. --Jasepl (talk) 09:13, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Addition of new destinations

Can editors please note that any additions to the list must have a reliable source. Rather than edit war it we be better if User:Dimitree could provide valid references for additions. If anybody has a problem with anything on the list then please just add a {{fact}} tag to any questionable edit that are not in the five references on the page to let other editors know of a problem. It may help if any questionable entries had inline citations added. Thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 20:27, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you. That's what I've been trying to explain, but failing miserably. Also trying to explain that "Aeroflot's planning department told me" is not a valid source, from any angle. But no matter what, it turns into a "You hate Russia" accusation! I stand by the project's basic editing and inclusion requirements and if a reliable and valid source for reference is not provided, edits will be reverted. Jasepl (talk) 01:28, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I agree. A valid reference needs to be included for such services (i.e. an ACTUAL airline press release). Snoozlepet (talk) 02:10, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with User:WhisperToMe and what he said on my talk page [8]. No problem. I'm enough ok to understand that any information must have a VALID source. Ok. I always provide such a source (with few exceptions). BUT! There is another problem - it is the approach that Jasepl has to all the rest: reverts without discussion on the appropriate page or simply deletes (official sources: web-sites, bulletines or GDS Timetable data) saying that someone "does not grasp of something". That is the problem. And that is the prove - a new revert of Aeroflot page maiden by Jasepl [9]. He has deleted again official code-share partners of Aeroflot (indicated on its web-site [10]), without any VALID source. I've kindly asked him already THRICE [11], [12], [13] to provide a VALID source. No reply. If you think it is ok - let's make it a rule for everyone: revert whatever you want. Thanx. --Dimitree (talk) 22:01, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Few words about Jasepl. He is constantly saying that he is trying to explain first and only after he reverts. It is not truth. He has been reverting even after when consensus was established. These are proves - Jasepl's brilliant chef-d'oeuvres, especially THIS [14] or THIS [15] or THIS [16].
  • He says that "no matter what it turns into a "You hate Russia" accusation". Have a look at these reverts[17],[18], [19],[20], [21] (SIC!), and say: how consider them if not like attack on Russia?

domestic network from USSR days

Why are these destinations missing? is it because there are no references, or too many to list, or is this article only about Russian Aeroflot and not its subsidiaries based in other republics at the time? did Aeroflot also not serve Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Turkmenistan back then? 116.71.21.50 (talk) 10:58, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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