Talk:Brooke Magnanti

Blog

There is much speculation as to who Belle in fact is. On April 1st (yes, I know) last year http://erotic-review-coterie.blogspot.com/ was created, which claimed to explain the backstory to the blog and belle's success, and had notable features like a shared rss feed with belledejour-uk.blogspot.com. It was later deleted though. It is now back up, posted by 'Darren' according to the RSS feed - who I assume is someone who kept a copy of the original blog and decided to recreate it. Worth mentionning? Or at least some of the news stories about how belle might not be the person she claims to be? Tommy-Chivs 12:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

The news stories are probably worth mentioning. Much as I like the blogosphere an un-corroborated blog is probably not worth mentioning. She is deliberately anonymous so various things can be alleged & she will not respond to protect that anonymity. She may even have posted an april fools spoof herself, it is not particularly out of character. MGSpiller 23:32, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

More on her identity

I've changed the opening paragraph from "someone who claims to be a former call girl" to "a former call girl". Although there are people in the media who believe that Belle is entirely fictitious, I think WP:BLP means we can't infer she is a liar without some evidence to that effect. The "Real identity" section still covers the question mark over her identity, although it requires a citation. Marwood (talk) 13:48, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Chloe Bancroft

connections, maybe? how to have an affair in palo alto chloe bancroft

it seems awfully familiar if you've seen any of the "Secret Diary of a Call Girl" series. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.47.150.126 (talk) 01:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Life imitates art... again

Not just Deneuve's, but Weaver's, too. (How come nobody seems to have mentioned "Half Moon Street" yet in this context?) —141.150.24.105 (talk) 04:52, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was not moved GrooveDog FOREVER 01:44, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

---

Belle de Jour (writer) → Brooke Magnanti — This article was created when her identity was unknown, now that she has gone public we can move it. --PatGallacher (talk) 11:24, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Neutral She is still quite obviously commonly known as Belle de Jour, but moving to the real name would at least mean we don't have to have the rather odd (writer) disambiguator. MickMacNee (talk) 13:30, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I would be inclined to oppose. This requested move implies some speculation about whether people will now refer to the subject by her real name or her established literary pseudonym, but at the moment, the main press sources are still starting stories along the lines 'Belle de Jour, whose real name is Dr Brooke Magnanti'. If she becomes better known under her real name then the time may come to reconsider. Sam Blacketer (talk) 12:49, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Neutral both solutions are ok - however that alss means that there is no reason really requiring a move.--Kmhkmh (talk) 14:25, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Soft oppose Belle de Jour on the grounds the nom-de plume that is more famous. 213.249.187.154 (talk) 17:14, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Controversy?

There has been rather a lot of discussion about this author in the British press since this revelation came out. Is this deliberately not included, or could a section on this be included if I typed something up? Random name (talk) 09:57, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

note that some of it is actually already included, other details will follow soon (see below).--Kmhkmh (talk) 14:53, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

It might be an idea, if the coverage in the British press was to be included, that the names of the papers involved would be a good idea. She gave the interview to the Sunday Times, but according to her blog, the Daily Mail (as usual...) was threatening to blow her cover. Mcgruffalo (talk) 13:53, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

After reviweing most of the recently published stuff, I'm not really aware of any real new "controversy". The new biographical information and details should be added, if nobody else does i will do it over the next couple of days. you can also take a look at the new German version which already compiled a large portion of the recent publications. However since much of the current publications are from the yellow press/tabloid papers, we need to perform a sanity check on the information and compare the various sources to get a better idea of what information seems to be reliable and what not. --Kmhkmh (talk) 14:53, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps "criticism" is a better word. I certainly don't see any discussion in the article as it stands regarding the perception within some parts of the press that her work might serve to glamorize prostitution. Please note that I'm saying this criticism exists without agreeing / disagreeing with it; it's just clearly there, so I was surprised to not see it in the article. Random name (talk) 16:59, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

The criticism regarding glamorizing prostitution should be in the article, it is however not new or recent, that criticism has been around since the blog appeared in 2003. Aprominent critic would be the bishop of york and various journalists, interestingly including india Knight which published the coming out story. She was rather critical in 2004 and considered the whole thing a hoax with male publishing male fantasies (promoting prostitution) under the pseudonym of an alleged callgirl. Ironically that turned out to be wrong. The German article already has a small section on the criticism and i can add somthing similar to this one in the future. Currently i'm still reviewing the press material on belle de jour that's still available online. There are a lot of older articles which are interesting and funny in retrospective (partially because they turned out to be so off in their guess work), but unfortunately not all of those can be accessed online at the moment. I also aspect some follow up reports over the next 1-2 weeks which I'd like to review as well first. At least in my case i see no reason for hastily edits right, but i rather go for a bigger overhaul after I reviewed all the material and did some internal consistency and fact checking.--Kmhkmh (talk) 17:32, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Timeline

Not sure about the timeline in first paragraph. PhD supposedly awarded in ?end of 2003. End of Call girl carrier ? Sept. 2004 (according to blog at least). So 2004 callgirlism didn't fund PhD studies. (Imfbuch) —Preceding undated comment added 16:23, 7 January 2010 (UTC).

Hair color

Since I saw conflicting opinions in the history list, a short comment on that subject. Of course is the hair color in connection with the revelation of her identity not really important, however you still can make somewhat of an argument, why that information might be interesting to readers (which might be also the reason why some sources mention the hair color explicitly). The reason is simply the connection to her alias. Since the famous movie character (chatherine Deneuve as belle de jour) to which the alias allures had blond hair as well.--Kmhkmh (talk) 01:34, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

call girl/prostitute/sex worker

@IP: I'm getting the impression that you are trying to push some innuendo here. The term "call girl" was used in the article all the time and it is an accurate description. That means there is no real need to change the current wording. Apparently several editors were not convinced of your change, so if you insist on a different choice of words, please make sure you achieve an editorial consent here first, before you change it in the article.

From my perspective each of the terms (call girl, prostitute, sex worker) is somewhat accurate. However "call girl" is a bit less generic than prostitute or sex worker, since the latter terms comprise anything from street prostitution, brothels to escort agencies whereas the first is mostly refering to escorts/escort agencies offering sexual services. Also the books and tv series are called "diaries of a call girl" and not "diaries of a prostitute/sex worker". This means the term call girl is slightly more accurate than the other two and matches her self description (as well as that in many media outlets), hence it is the term the article should use.--Kmhkmh (talk) 16:33, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Since I'm at it anyhow, I'd like to correct 2 misconceptions raised/claimed by the IP in version history:

• call a spade a spade:

  "Call girl" is a spade or at least it should be to anybody familiar with current English terms. And even in the (rare) case that is not familiar with the term, he just has to click in the wikilink (note that call girl and sex worker have separate articles).

• the current introduction implies that she was chiefly a scientist/writer and an incidental prostitute, which is inaccurate

  The introduction did correctly so, since she was a call girl for less then 2 years while she has been scientist and blogger/writer for more than 10 years, so obviously her chief occupation is the latter and not the former. Moreover she became famous as blogger/writer for writing about sex and call girl experiences rather than for her call girl activity itself. That means her wikipedia notability stems not directly from her job as a call girl, but from her writing about it. This somewhat different from a case where the notability is primarily derived being a call girl or from the sex service offered like Ashley Alexandra Dupré.

--Kmhkmh (talk) 17:07, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

@Kmhkmh: most lucid. yet i see that Ashley Alexandra Dupré is also introduced in her opening sentence as "an American sex columnist for the New York Post and singer" and not as a call girl. I hope you havent been spreading your sweetness and light there too. The books and tv series are called "diaries of a call girl" simply because calling it "diaries of a prostitute" doesnt sell as many copies. Thats why the name of her book shouldnt stand as a guide to what she should be called. unless youre worried about marketability on Wikipedia too. Miss Magnanti was a prostitute. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.231.59.166 (talk) 09:03, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

It seems you misunderstood the argument above. Of course was Magnanti a prostitute, since every call girl is a prostitute. The point is that call girl is better term since it provides a more accurate description, i.e. call girl is special type of prostitute. To provide an analogon, that might help to understand this point. If you look at the lead of the article Lion you will see that it is described as a cat not as mammal, though it is mammal nevertheless. Why? Because cat is more specific term (i.e. carrying more information for the reader) and people usually know anyhow that cat are mammals (and if not they can click on the link). So the argument above is not about picking a "nicer" or "sweeter" term, but a more accurate/specific one.

As far as as blog, book ot TV-series is concerned, what matters here is the name they use and not the reasoning for that you me or any editor might assume. Our private interpretations have no meaning in WP (see WP:OR and WP:NPOV).

Lastly, if you are concerned that the overall tone/content article is "too nice", then write the still missing "criticism section" as was already suggest earlier (like in German interwiki for instance). There was enough public criticism of her blog & books in reputable sources, that charge her for glamourizing prostitution. But please refrain from "proxy wars" about the wording in the lead about the term "call girl".

Also if you nevertheless insist on a different wording seek editorial consent first and moreover provide a proper argument, why the term prostitute or sex worker would be more appropriate. So far your argument merely seems to be "call girl sounds too nice to me" and that frankly is not cutting it. Meaning, we are not going to replace a more accurate term, which has been fine with other editors so far, by a less accurate one, just because it sounds "too nice" to you personally.--Kmhkmh (talk) 09:57, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Brooke Magnanti study and sourcing

The following paragraph reads this way:

"In 2011 Brooke Magnanti published a statistical re-analysis criticizing the Report on Lap Dancing and Striptease in the Borough of Camden, a study which had found that sexual crimes have increased after the opening of four lap dancing venues in the area. Magnati concluded in her paper that the study had significant methodological errors.[37] According to Magnanti's paper, in the decade since lap dancing became legal in London the rate of rape in Camden has fallen, is lower than areas of London without the clubs, and is in line with national averages.[38]"

I have removed this part "According to Magnanti's paper, in the decade since lap dancing became legal in London the rate of rape in Camden has fallen, is lower than areas of London without the clubs, and is in line with national averages" because, unlike the phrase above, which is sourced to the study itself (ref 37), this paragraph is sourced to a press article (in a minor non-scientific newspaper). The conclusion of a study must be sourced to the study itself, and clearly explained with quotes or close paraphrasing from the study itself. This paragraph consists merely of the words of the journalist and his interpretation of the study. You don't present the conclusion of a study as the explanation given by an obscure journalist in an obscure newspaper.

For those unfamiliar with all this, the Report on Lap Dancing and Striptease in the Borough of Camden found that "Since 1999 rape of women in Camden has increased by 50%" and "Since 1999 indecent assault of women in Camden has increased by 57%" and "Camden’s female rape rate per 1000 for 2001 was three times the national average". In short that study found that the opening of strip clubs in Cameden has led to an increase of sex crimes in that area, while Magnanti disputed this in her paper claiming that the methodology of that study was flawed.

So:

If all this is going to be presented here:

1. both these studies are going to be clearly explained and presented in a neutral way (i.e without giving Magnanti the last word and implying that her paper is the one that has it right)

2. keep the press out of it. There's a policy on WP about this: because what a journalist says about the conclusion of a study can often be different than what the study itself says, the press is not to be used to explain what a study says.