Talk:Stanley Fish

What about the vandalism?

What happen to this article which has been considered vandalism? I know that there is a lot of people who don't like Fish and his theories, but what can come of trying to deface a wiki artilce.

--chemica 07:57, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Look at the history. There was no vandalism. There were merely repeated attempts to correct a poorly written and misleading article.

By removing sourced material without ever actually phrasing a coherent objection. Which was vandalism prior to the objection being phrased. Now it's mere incompetence, which is not bannable, but still very much revertable. Phil Sandifer 23:44, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

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The section "Stanley Fish and Deconstruction" in the article (as well as the Murray article link provided) really doesn't seem to provide any substantial information about Fish's interpretation of deconstruction or about Murray's counterpoint. It just seems like two vague remarks delivered entirely out of context, especially the Fish quote, which is lacking a citation even in the provided Murray article. I'm going to delete the section of the article, as well as the link to the Murray article, provide a link to a streaming audio file in which Fish is interviewed about deconstruction, and put the Murray link in the Murray wikipedia entry where it might have a better context.

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Murray is best known for defending racism in the controversial book "The Bell Curve".

He did not actually defend racism in that book. In the book, Murray and Herrnstein argued that IQ exists; that it is heritable; and that some of the difference in mean IQ scores between the white European population of the United States and the African-American population (one full standard deviation of 15 points) is probably attributable to genetic factors. (FOR WHOM THE BELL CURVE TOLLS: A Prelude to an Upcoming Special Issue of Skeptic (Volume 3, #3)An Interview with the Author of The Bell Curve CHARLES MURRAY Interview by Frank Miele)If you had read the book (specifically the thirteenth chapter), you would know that nowhere in it does Murray defend racism.

This is the dictionary definition of racism.

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I'm with you anonymous person. That's why I'm deleting this sentence. Actually, there's lots else wrong with it, too. It's POV to say that Murray is "best known" for that particular book anyway -- he was a pretty important public intellectual before it.

--Christofurio 23:42, May 19, 2004 (UTC)

Isn't Stanley Fish the guy who published Sokal's fake article in Social Text? Or is that someone else entirely?

I think you're thinking of Aronowitz.

Perhaps, but I think that Fish has to be considered a fairly important player in that whole kerfuffle. It was his journal that published the article, after all, and Fish who had some of the most vociferous defences of the decision to publish, along with some pokes at Sokal. RyanGrant 05:43, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Copyright violation

As requested by Mwanner, I'll note that certain sentences are copied verbatim or only slightly modified from the FIU link cited in the copyvio notice:

FIU text	Wikipedia text
"Fish earned his Ph.D. ... from Yale University in 1962. He taught English at the University of California at Berkeley and Johns Hopkins University before becoming arts and sciences professor of English and professor of law at Duke University, where he taugh for 14 years in the 1980s and 90s."	"Fish earned his Ph.D. from Yale University in 1962. He taught English at the University of California at Berkeley and Johns Hopkins University before becoming Arts and Sciences Professor of English and professor of law at Duke University from 1986 to 1998."
"Considered a leading scholar on English poet John Milton—author of “Paradise Lost”—Fish’s reputation was cemented by his book “How Milton Works”, published in 2001."	"Considered a leading scholar of Milton, a reputation cemented by the book How Milton Works in 2001...."
"Fish is best known for his work on interpretive communities, which looks at how the interpretation of a text by a reader depends on the reader's acceptance of a common set of foundational assumptions or texts."	"...Fish is best known for his work on interpretive communities, ... that studies how the interpretation of a text by a reader depends on the reader's ... acceptance of a common set of foundational assumptions or texts."

There may be more. I stopped there. --Flex 13:07, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

It appears that FIU copied Wikipedia, not the other way around. The press release is dated June 29. The last major change to the page was June 11 and the text in fact goes back months further. I expect this sort of thing will become increasingly common as Wikipedia becomes more popular. AaronSw 15:33, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

In fact, that is exactly what happened. I emailed FIU's office of media relations and asked them about the similarities. They responded:

I am responding your email to the Office of Media Relations regarding a possible copyright infringement of Wikipedia's entry for Florida International University Professor Stanley Fish.

Please allow me to express our sincere apology for not properly sourcing the material we used in the press release announcing his hiring. We will fix the problem immediately by amending the press release in our archive database.

--Flex 12:38, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

Fish and Legal Theory

I think something should be put in about Fish's writings on jurisprudence. It can't be said that he has a particularly strong reputation in the field, but he has been published on legal theory and, if only because of his reputation as an English scholar, his efforts produced a number of responses from such distinguished jurists as Ronald Dworkin and Richard Posner User: JRJW 19 December 2005

David Lodge and Fish

If we are going to allow a connection here -- which I personally am leaning against doing -- then we need to have a citation to the article and change the wording. Fish as an inspiration for Morris Zapp, while interesting I suppose, is a rumor. To say "Fish is probably the inspiration...", appears random and does not serve any purpose so far as the rest of the article is concerned. If we are to allow it to stay, it needs to be expanded and even then it needs to be cited and proven relevant to the rest of the article. Perhaps it should be moved to a 'trivia' subheading. Or it could be in a subheading that relates Fish to contemporaries and/or critics -- although I don't really think this is necessarily a great idea either. For the moment, I am removing it under the premise of WP:NOT, subheading 1.8.

Ryecatcher773 18:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Fish and Law

How did this dude get to be a law professor? Unless I'm missing something, it isn't covered in the article. Lou Sander 23:39, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Professor Fish's academic resume is listed in it's abridged entirety (which is to say all the major things are covered). What you are looking for is there, it is mentioned under the heading of Academic Career. If you are looking for something more comprehensive, such as the road map from high school to Professor of Law at Duke, well, it isn't written down anywhere that I've seen. I never bothered asking him about it, but so far as I am aware, one doesn't need have to have a degree in Law in order to teach it -- if that is what you are asking. Professor Fish's main areas of focus are Milton, First Amendment Law, and Deconstruction Theory (see Jacques Derrida). Qualifications for teaching at the university level typically have more to do with an area of expertise as it has been demonstrated in practice (publications, awards, etc) than it does with what ones diploma says. Ryecatcher773 00:51, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I can see that he was a law professor at Duke. But I can't see anything at all that would explain how and why an English teacher would become a law professor, or someone whose "main area of interest" is First Amendment Law. Why not a surgeon? Or a volleyball theorist? Did he get a traffic ticket, go to court, and decided he loved the law? Surely it wasn't just an opening he applied for, was it? One would hope that an encyclopedia might shine a little light on unusual aspects of its subjects' careers. Lou Sander 02:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, as I stated, there is nothing in print to substantiate anything theories or speculations on his move. However, it is hardly a big jump from English to Law. English curricula, at the university level anyway, is not about writing book reports, it's about critical analysis. Studying law is, in effect, not much different in theory. Part of the reason English is one of the majors considered ideal for pre-Law is this critically analytical approach. English is also a name applied to a major that could also be called 'Rhetoric', which is what lawyers (or Rhetoricians as they were called) engaged in during the classical Greek period -- read your Aristotle and Plato, or just ask an English professor. He or she will back my claim on this (incidentally, it isn't just my claim... I'm taking it from the overview section on English as a Major in the UIC catalog... and I'm sure they weren't the first to come up with it either) Cheers! Ryecatcher773 03:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Medievalist?

John Skelton (1460-1529) doesn't really count as a Mediaval author. If this is the extent of his work on early English literature, it would be a good idea to remove this characterization.

Professor Fish isn't a medievalist, but he did start out as one. You are correct, the book on Skelton's poetry isn't necessarily a qualification of his medievalist roots, and I don't see the relation between the two sentences. I think what the contributor was alluding to is that Fish talks about his progression (or perhaps, to not offend medievalists it is better to say 'his change in course') into later periods. I have not personally read this particular work, so I cannot say. Wherever he actually embarked on his academic journey is irrelevant other than as a brief biographical mention' Fish's areas of concentration are mainly Milton, Literary Theory, and First Amendment Law. Ryecatcher773 02:12, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Facebook group

Not sure if this is allowed here, but if any Fish enthusiasts watch this page and also use facebook, I've just created the first Fish fanclub there. --Ryan Heuser 07:59, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

It's not so much prohibited as irrelevant, but have fun. I would be wary, however, of any intellectual whose influence is of such a nature that people who like his work consider themselves as "fans". Fandom is a pretty irrational affair. Lexo (talk) 22:33, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Chicago

This page does not need or warrant a template for WP Chicago. Fish is neither a native Chicagoan nor even a resident of the City of Chicago. He was employed here, yes. But that is the extent of his connection to the city, and he is no longer employed by UIC, nor has he been for a couple of years now (I was in his final class at UIC in Spring of 2005, he left Chicago in July of that year for FIU). Lastly, the article itself only mentions Chicago in passing, and is not otherwise directly related to Chicago in any way. I have removed the template accordingly. Ryecatcher773 18:42, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

A bot puts the banner on pages that have appropriate categories, as in this case; UIC faculty. However, he was more than just employed, he was, from 1999 to 2004, Dean of the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences at UIC, where he was paid $230,000 a year, more than the Governor of Illinois. This got him a certain notoriety. Anyway, what harm does it do to have more eyes on the page? Speciate 19:27, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

When you say he wasn't a resident of Chicago, what did he do, commute in from another state or something? Speciate 19:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I added more on his time in Chicago. Speciate 20:13, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Never said he didn't live here. I said he no longer lives here and he isn't from here... and furthermore he wasn't here that long. Lots of famous people have resided in Chicago who have come and gone, and none of them warrant a WP Chicago tag either. What I said was he is not a resident of Chicago -- yes, he lived here briefly but he has now gone. We aren't talking about Dennis Farina or Harrison Ford here.

I am also well aware of his position and notoriety/fame, as I was a tuition paying member of the UIC College of LAS during his tenure here, and I have had the man both as a professor and as an advisor for an independent study course I did on rhetoric with him. But his salary was hardly a major news story anywhere outside of academic circles. It wasn't front page news in the Trib.

The point is, the article is not about Chicago, or a famous Chicagoan. It is about a man who is a native of another state, who also now resides in another state he isn't from (Florida), whose only attachment to Chicago was a brief stint in a long and illustrious career. He accomplished the majority of his academic work at Duke, Berkley and Johns Hopkins -- where he also earned a notorious reputation and ... yet I don't any tags for WP San Fransisco, or WP Maryland, or WP North Carolina on here. Ryecatcher773 21:35, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Any article with at category listed at WP:CHIBOTCATS will get tagged by the bot that checks these cats twice a week for new articles for WP:CHICAGO. If the category is important enough to the article to belong there our project would like to follow the article. As I read the current WP:LEAD it says "He is . . . dean emeritus of the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences at the University of Illinois at Chicago" Thus, he has a notable lifelong relationship with a Chicago educational institution. Unless you feel it would harm the talk page to have a Chicago banner there I would appreciate it if you would leave it there.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 00:31, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia created these talk pages for the purpose of improving articles. The various Project banners function as categories, and aid in the tracking of articles related to various subjects. All that is required is that the article is of interest to a WikiProject. There was a lengthy debate over a LGBT studies banner on the Larry Craig talk page, which was resolved by having the banner remain. Speciate 00:45, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I should also add that I have even changed the priority tag on this article to mid because he served in a prominent role as a Chicagoan. He was already a preeminent scholar in his field when he was affiliated with the local institution and influenced many Chicagoans in his prominent role. He is a part of the Chicago project without a doubt. See WP:CHIPRIORITY for an explanation of how our project evaluates the importance of articles to our project.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 13:07, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Criticism Section

Please review the guidelines on wikipedia criticism here[1], where you'll learn that a "criticism" section, of course, does not require or even suggest that there should be a corresponding section of "praise" in order to meet the standard of NPOV.

You'll also learn that "In general, making separate sections with the title "Criticism" is discouraged." Criticism sections are made until the criticism can be dispersed throughout the article. Right now, these criticisms are difficult to incorporate. A good example that looks like Fish's can be found here [2]. Hope this is helpful. Cheers. --216.164.61.173 (talk) 04:59, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow this article is in bad shape. I haven't looked at it in years but it seems to me it used to be a lot better. What we have now is a massive 'criticism' section of which a large portion is ad hominem, and the rest lacks context because there is no explaination of what Fish claims to be all about. I suspect this may be because nobody who has contributed to this article in its present state understands Fish. It seems like much of the criticism is from so-called authorities who don't even address Fish's theories, but in fact compare him unfavorably to other people's theories (for example, pointing out that Fish's brand of criticism fails to qualify as 'dialectic' since it doesn't progress to synthesis is simply the result of holding Fish to the standards of Hegel. Why should Fish be held to the standards of Hegel? Did he ever claim to be Hegellian in some way? The article doesn't give any indiction of what he is at all, Hegellian or otherwise! It's pretty useless. But then, isn't a lot of Wikipedia, these days? Wikipedia confounding itself over time all while its contributors believie they are improving it is probably an irony Fish would appreciate! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.180.66.20 (talk) 11:55, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Inappropriate tone

"As both a prominently public intellect and a hard man to pin down politically, Fish has spent considerable time in various public arenas vigorously debunking pieties of both the left and the right — sometimes in the same sentence."

This reads like something from a magazine feature, not like something from an encylopedia article. (I assume that the writer meant "intellectual" rather than "intellect" - an intellectual talks for a living, but the intellect is a rather nebulous mental faculty.) This article is in general not very good; some bits of it strike me as being wildly pro-Fish, other bits seem to be very anti-Fish. I believe that the people least qualified to write a wikipedia article about a thinker are those who agree wholeheartedly with the thinker in question, but the reverse is also true; I do not myself think that Fish's work is non-trivial, so I don't care enough to ensure that an article about him is kept in good order. Lexo (talk) 22:31, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

But apparently you do care enough to write a lengthy paragraph prefacing your non-caring. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.175.78.126 (talk) 23:37, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Well it's gone, and obviously its tone called for its removal. I should have liked to add subheadings to the Criticism §:

Criticism of his work

Sloppy Reasoning

But Camille Paglia's "totalitarian tinkerbell" pretty much does it. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 02:45, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

BTW that section uses the non-word "homogenous." It seems to be a paraphrase, as I didn't find it in the cited text. If the word belongs, it should be "homogeneous." Danchall (talk) 00:35, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Stanley Fish on philosophy

I'm wondering whether we can work this recent quote from Professor Fish into the article. I think it's pretty important? Mardiste (talk) 22:03, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

"Philosophy is fun; it can be a good mental workout; its formulations sometimes display an aesthetically pleasing elegance. I’m just denying to philosophy one of the claims made for it - that its conclusions dictate or generate non-philosophical behavior."