Talk:Gibson Brands

New Life

Let me start off by saying I plan to take this page on as of now. Gibson USA (which is the closest thing to an official name I have found) has a wiki on their web site with a wealth of information we can cite and use after digesting it to fit within the scope of a more layman's encyclopedia and make it less guitar geekish. I will begin poring over it and bringing what we can over while using it to cite and clean up what we have here. Here's the link Gibson Wiki Who's with me? --Drmartini 16:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Disambiguation?

There's quite a lot of disambiguation material on this page now. I think it's time we sorted it out properly: either primary-topic disambiguation with Gibson about the guitars and Gibson (disambiguation) as a clearing-house for other Gibsons, or equal disambiguation with Gibson as a disambiguation page and the guitars moved to another page (Gibson Guitar Corp or Gibson (guitars)).

The main advantage of primary-topic disambiguation is that most links to Gibson on Wikipedia are likely to refer to the guitars: the cocktail is an unusual variant of the martini, appliances are not exactly cultural touchstones, and links to the people of that name are likely to be written with the appropriate forename: William Gibson (which is itself a disambiguation page), Mel Gibson, Debbie Gibson. Many pages about guitarists refer to their preferred brands and models and linking to Gibson is quite natural. With primary-topic disambiguation, Wikipedians writing about guitarists would be able to continue to refer to their "Gibson guitars" without having to make a piped link.

The potential advantage of equal disambiguation is that people searching Wikipedia for "Gibson" may be looking for people of that name, though I think they're more likely to be looking for the guitars than the refrigerators. They would end up with a simple menu of all the relevant choices rather than having to click through to the Gibson (disambiguation) page.

Or maybe I'm wrong and having four (or more, once someone adds Mel and Debbie, and indeed Orville) lines of disambiguation stuff at the top isn't a problem at all. At the moment, I would prefer primary-topic disambiguation with all the other Gibsons sent to Gibson (disambiguation). What do you think?

--rbrwr^± 10:56, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Argh. It's been changed to an equal disambig now, and I can't see the point. Just look at what links to the page; one link to the guitar makers after another. Sorting this out won't be easy, not to mention we didn't do it well; however it was managed, my comments below are still here, from when this was still a primary-topic place. I vote for primary-topic. Deltabeignet 22:55, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

It wasn't me who did the disambig, and I certainly understand why you reverted it back, but now there are two articles with the same info on them, and you could have done something about that. . . . . . see Wikipedia:Duplicate articles. I'll do it, but just for future reference, any editor (i.e. you and me) can and should take care of cleanup stuff like this. Soundguy99 22:01, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for working that out; sorry about leaving it as is (just got the Crossroads Guitar Festival DVD, and I haven't been paying much attention to the rest of the world). Deltabeignet 19:13, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Fender vs. Gibson

As I've mentioned on the Fender talk page, I'm thinking about a page dedicated to the Fender-Gibson rivalry. It'll have stuff on solid-body vs. hollow-body, basses, amps, and that kind of thing. Does it sound useful, and what should I call it if so?Deltabeignet 01:19, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

-but will there be another page on the intense Squier-Epiphone rivalry?

Hmmmmmm. . . . . . my first question would be how much verifiable info is out there about a genuine business rivalry between the two companies? My impression from various things I've read is that maybe in the early 50's when the electric guitar market was pretty small the two companies might have gone gunning for each other, but once the Beatles hit the whole market grew so fast that there was no real "rivalry" - both companies had all the business they could handle. If the article would just wind up as basically an argument between two guitar players over which is "better", then there's no point.

Another point is that your "vs." examples don't seem to really divide the two companies, or at least one company so overwhelms the other one that no real "rivalry" can be said to exist. Examples:

• Both companies produce solid-bodies (Strat vs. Les Paul) but Fender's never really had a viable or popular hollow-body, whereas Gibson's had several.
• Fender's also never had any real presence in acoustic guitars, while Gibson's got several important models.
• OTOH the Fender P-bass and Jazz bass have run rings (in sales, popularity and notability) around any bass that Gibson's ever put out.
• And Fender also dominates the amp market. Some early Gibson tube amps have become collectible, but I think they pretty much gave up on the amp business about 1975.

I'm not saying it's a horrible idea, necessarily, just raising some questions about format and content. You might want to work on this in your User space before putting it out into the general Wikipedia, so it doesn't get put up on VfD before you have a chance to improve it. If you do work on it there and would like me to take a look at it, let me know on my talk page. Soundguy99 22:58, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. The competition has always been so nuanced and unique, it seems like a shame not to give it a page. I'll see what I can do (though I still don't know what to call it.). Deltabeignet 19:13, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

this is kind of redundant, its like comparing hip hop to rock, they are two completely different things with different sounds and have different purposes and uses. --AlexOvShaolin 01:13, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I think much of the current "rivalry" seems to be as much an invention of the consumers as it is a legitimate competition between the two companies. I'm sure that at some point (the beginning) they both had it out for each other's throats, but I really don't see Gibson being all that concerned about Fender somehow sneaking up from behind and cornering the "single-cutaway with humbuckers" market. I think it's as much brand loyalty and preference for certain features as it is anything else. As has been stated above, Gibson seems to be content to let Fender dominate the amplifier and bass guitar market, and Fender doesn't seem to mind Gibson's acoustic and hollowbody sales too much. Occasionally I will notice a guitar model (mostly Squiers) that seems to be aimed at a consumer who probably wouldn't normally go for that brand. The Squier M-80 seems to have some suspiciously Gibson-like features for a Fender product, and I remember a Squier from a couple years ago (I think they've stopped selling it by now) that looked, to me, to be a very budget-oriented version of Kirk Hammett's ESP model, but none of it seems to go much further than trying to grab a couple extra customers. I guess my biggest concern about the idea is that a lot of it seems to be a matter of opinion. Also, this isn't exactly the Pepsi Challenge; I'd liken it more to the idea that Applebee's and Burger King might secretly be competing - just two companies doing very different things and aiming towards some pretty specific markets of their own - and, for the most part, ignoring each other. intooblv 05:39, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not so sure about all of that. Intooblv certainly made some solid points which prove that this topic might not warrant an entire article. However it could certainly be mentioned in the history, if not as its own subhead.--drmartini 15:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Move/change redirect

Currently, the article Gibson Guitar Corporation redirects to Gibson, where the actual article is. I think that, for consistency with the rest of Wikipedia, that the article content should be moved to "Gibson Guitar Corporation" (with a redirect to this from "Gibson Guitars" and "Gibson Guitar"), and the "Gibson" page should redirect to Gibson (disambiguation). I think this require an administrator to pull this off, or maybe I'm just too dumb. Comments? Realkyhick 19:43, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

• Support move, obviously - the guitar company is not the overwhelmingly most common meaning. Also move Gibson (disambiguation) to Gibson. sjorford (talk) 09:16, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
• Support per sjorford, assuming this is the official name of the company, which it is unclear whether it is.—jiy (talk) 12:05, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Yes, that's a good point - I've dug around on http://www.gibson.com but they just seem to call themselves Gibson, or possibly Gibson Musical Instruments. sjorford (talk) 16:30, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
    • I would agree that Gibson Musical Instruments would be their official name, from http://www.gibson.com/AboutUs/ContactUs/ - but from talking to people in shops over here (England), trying to sell me an SG recently, said it was the cheapest US made guitar by Gibson USA but that could reffer to the factory like this seems to http://www.gibson.com/AboutUs/ SnakeSeries 19:43, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I've moved the pages per consensus above. Izehar 23:12, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I thought we were still debating it??? sjorford (talk) 00:02, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Artists who play Gibsons

Might I suggest that we link directly to artists pages from this section, not just their bands? SnakeSeries 19:43, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I can't figure out how to start a new topic, but it should be noted in the introduction that Peter Townshend of The Who also played SG's almost exclusively for a time.

It's probably time to create a separate page: List of guitarists who use Gibson guitars. Anyone disagree? --Blahm 22:35, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

BTW don't they teach the alphabet to kids anymore? Is it that hard to insert the artist's name in the correct alphabetical order? Maybe with a list it'll be more ordered,

Sorry, couldn't help myself. It's done: List of artists who use Gibsons

Gibson Serial Numbers

I removed the Gibson serial numbers link:

• Gibson Serial Numbers

because when linked it redirects to the store's home page. Curiously, when copied and pasted, it goes to the serial number page. Anyone up for a Wikipedia page for Gibson serial numbers that isn't a music store's homepage? RC Cola 05:31, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I tried going to the page listed as reference and after some navigation found my way to the intended page but all of the links were broken. On a side note, I have a Gibson SG that has a "5" in the location spot, when the only numbers given for production location for Gibson solidbodies are 4 and 7. Fallingwalls1 05:27, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I cited the article to Gibson's official page on the subject and changed some notably incorrect information. If anyone would like to expand on what I put, or clean it up, be my guest. (Fallingwalls1 22:25, 29 June 2007 (UTC))

I've rewritten the whole serial numbers section because it was completely wrong. 213.121.151.174 (talk) 16:37, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Photo?

Why isn't there a photo? There should be a big old photo of a vintage Les Paul on this page. If not a guitar (which I suppose could be handled by the individual guitar model pages) there should at least be a picture of the Gibson logo

Well, there are appropriate pictures on the Gibson Les Paul, Gibson SG etc. pages, all tagged {{Promotional}} and presumably taken from the Gibson website. We also could claim fair use of the Gibson logo for this page. What would be better, though, would be good free content (e.g. public domain, GFDL, cc-by or cc-by-sa) photos of Gibsons. Do you own a Gibson? And a camera? Just hoping! --rbrwr^± 20:35, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Regrettably, I don't own a Gibson (yet). The more I've thought about it though, it would be better just to have a picture of the Gibson logo for the article on the Gibson company, as opposed to selecting a single guitar model for the picture. Jhayes94 21:12, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Gibson in trouble?

I'll leave my personal opinions out of this, but I will say that I know 3 shops, 2 of them quite large, that have stopped dealing Gibsons recently due to a perceived nose-dive in quality of manufacture and ever-increasing prices.

I've read plenty about Gibson's quality control problems in the past couple of years. Check out the product reviews at guitarcenter.com. Monkeybreath 11:38, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

You can't conclude the subject here to be in trouble from those statements, regardless of how factual they are. It would qualify as Original Research. Please look for explicit sources instead. Ariedartin JECJY ^Talk 12:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Timeline of ownership of Gibson and names of the company

No date is given as to when the Gibson Mandolin-Guitar Manufacturing Company Limited became the Gibson Guitar Corporation, or whether the company was known by any other names in between.

Also, while the current management and the year when they took over are clearly stated, no other managers or owners are mentioned. This would be annoying for someone trying to find when Ted McCarty was president of Gibson, what the name of the company was when McCarty was president, or when the notorious "Norlin Era" was, as I was just doing.

Does anyone know where these important facts can be sourced? Respectfully, SamBlob

Product List

i think the product list needs it own page so it can be freely expanded on without worry of clutter, ect. for example i was thinking about adding another branch off the Les Paul studio section, but it would only add clutter. furthermore i cant see how that list is useful to the casual reader, another reason it should be given its own section, instead of having a list of all the electric guitars the section should merely name the most important ones in an article format. just so we're clear i think the list is excellent and i think that it is worthy of having it's own page. --AlexOvShaolin 01:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Reference list

I added a reference but it doesn't show up. Can anybody see something wrong with it? It looks okay to me. Professor marginalia 01:44, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Never mind, fixed now. Professor marginalia 01:52, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Use of Nitrocellulose Lacquer

Is this article the appropriate one to state the fact that all Gibson guitars are finished in nitrocellulose lacquer rather than the cheaper polyester finish used by most other manufactures? Buster 03:17, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Removed corporate material from the article on Gibson the individual

The following material was removed from the article on the individual who began the Gibson company, because it was entirely concerned with the company. The paragraphs are very gushingly praiseful, and read like a corporate brochure, so I haven't stuck them into the page (but I Googled some specific phrases and couldn't find them anywhere on the net). I am going to similarly remove a few sentences from this article about the individual and move them to his page. Accounting4Taste 19:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

material starts here

In the 1920s when the banjo overshadowed the mandolin and severely threatened Gibson's existence, the Gibson spirit of innovation triumphed. Gibson started from scratch with banjos in 1919 and in less than a decade surpassed companies that had specialized in banjos since before Gibson was founded.

For Gibson, innovation and the drive for perfection became a matter of company integrity. Through every change in the public's musical taste, through every change in the instrument industry, Gibson refused to settle for simply making as good an instrument as its competitors. Even making the best instrument in the business was not good enough. Gibson already made the best mandolin on the market, the F-4, when the Gibson F-5 was introduced in 1922. Gibson already made the best archtop guitar on the market, the L-5, when the Super 400 was created in 1934. Gibson already made the best electric pickup on the market, the P-90, when the humbucking pickup appeared in 1957.

Gibson today stands above all others as the only American company to make all styles of fretted instruments-electric guitars, acoustic guitars, banjos and mandolins. Moreover, Gibson is an acclaimed industry leader in all of these styles. The Gibson Les Paul solidbody electric guitar, the ES-335 semi-hollowbody electric guitar, the Super 400 archtop guitar, the J-200 flat top guitar, the Granada banjo, the F-5L mandolin...These are not just famous Gibson models. These are the original designs that established the industry standard for their respective genres.

All the great Gibson models, past and present, are products of a drive to perfection that represents the future as well as the legacy of Gibson-a drive to be not just the best, but to go to the next level, and be better than the best.

Gibson Invader

Could someone put up the difference between the las Paul and the invader guitars? From what i can see, (and from what an uninformed person would see) the invader looks exactly like a les Paul.

??? Aside from being a single cutaway how are they "exactly" the same? A bolt-on neck, different headstock style, different pick-ups, 3-way switch located in a different place, the Invader is a flat-top slab and a Les Paul is an Archtop. Quite a few differences. The biggest being that an Invader was around $300 new and a Les Paul goes for $2000-$5000. 156.34.228.63 01:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually the headstock style isn't different. Anyway, the Invader can be compared to today's Gibson Melody Maker. They were intended for beginner / intermediate guitar players. They used cheaper materials so it would cost less (as the other user stated above, the Invader went around $300, which is about what Melody Makers go for now). However, the Invader was discontinued in the late 80's I believe. I saw a few on eBay that are going for $1,000. The one pictured (manufactured in 1986) is has some dents, scratches and chips on it. Not only that, but the bridge pickup was replaced with a Seymour Duncan. It would probably go for about $500 on eBay. How do I know this? The Invader pictured in the article is my guitar, given to me by my uncle who originally bought it. My brother took the picture to post it here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.34.217.222 (talk) 02:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Concerning Les Paul not having any input on the guitar attributed to hsi name.

"...the guitar that became known as the Les Paul was developed without any input from its namesake." In the article about the Les Paul, it says that he contributed, though only slightly, to the guitar, so I've changed it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nfsjunkie91 (talk • contribs) 21:39, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:GibsonLogo.png

Image:GibsonLogo.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 22:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Acoustic guitars

Gibson acoustics are not made in Tennesse, They are made in Montana. Pat Pending (talk) 13:43, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Authorized copies

The following paragraph was removed from the article with no explaination. Does anyone know why??...."On May 10, 1957 Gibson purchased the Epiphone guitar company which at the time was one of their main competitors. The original plan was to continue selling Epiphone's successful upright bass, but soon after Gibson realized they could satisfy requests from music stores by producing Epiphone branded guitars. From the early 1970s the Epiphone brand name has been increasingly used by Gibson for lower priced guitars manufactured in countries other than the United States. Epiphone guitars have been made in the US, Japan, Korea, Indonesia and China. Orville by Gibson was another Gibson authorized brand of guitars that were made and sold in Japan." It was blanked by an ip-address edit. Is this important? and should be returned? Thank you.LanceBarber (talk) 06:57, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Multiple issues tag

I don't believe the page suffers from half as many issues as the recently placed top tag suggests. An outside link in the "Serial number" section isn't contrary to Wikipedia:External links as this policy states, "some acceptable links include those that contain further research that is accurate and on-topic [and] information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as copyright or amount of detail..." The link in question complies with this "acceptable link" definition. Fleetham (talk) 17:26, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia:External links, the very first sentence reads: "Wikipedia articles may include links to web pages outside Wikipedia (external links), but they should not normally be used in the body of an article. All external links must conform to certain formatting restrictions." What you quoted refers to what is acceptable to include in the "External links" section at the end of the article. As for citations, there are several {{cn}} templates marked throughout the article, and many more could be added. Once references are added,"citations missing" will no longer apply. The lead clearly needs to be rewritten per WP:LEAD. I originally included a NPOV tag because even though the glassdoor comment is cited, it's placement in the lead sees kind of slanted. However, if the lead were written properly and the comment were moved to the appropriate place in the article, the issue would go away. I'm sorry... I'm not trying to be a troll. These flags are meant to help editors identify what needs to be fixed, not punish. I strictly intend the former, not the latter. – VisionHolder « talk » 17:57, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

The WP:External Links language I quoted does not explicitly refer to external links in the "External links" section.

You're thinking on the glassdoor.com survey is simply opinion.

I will try to get more citations. Fleetham (talk) 20:02, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

WP:External Links clearly states that normally external links go in a dedicated section at the end. At this point, I don't see any special reasons why this article should be an exception. However, I have posted a request for clarification on the guideline's talk page.

My thoughts on the glassdoor.com statement are more than just opinion. Per WP:LEAD, the lead section should be used to summarize the article, which is not the case in this article. It also states: "The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources..." This information is not presented in the body at all. However, lots of other sourced information from the body is not even mentioned. As the lead reads now, it generally introduces the company and then says it sucks to work there. The body of the article does not reflect this. I am not opposed to criticism of a company. Quite the opposite: I encourage it per WP:NPOV. I have done my share of arguing for criticisms to be added to the lead, but in those cases, the criticism had significant coverage and references in the body.

As for the citations, I wish you luck. To be honest, over 90% of all Wikipedia articles should be flagged as needing citations. I only added it because I felt the {{multiple issues}} should cover all the article's shortcomings. Of course, that shouldn't stop people like you and me from trying. And just a tip: to prevent your online references from going stale, I recommend archiving them with resources such as WebCite. – VisionHolder « talk » 20:37, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

And by the way, I want to note that you are doing an excellent job cleaning up the article so far. Please keep up the good work. – VisionHolder « talk » 20:42, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the thanks and the Webcitations link. Recently I had to use Google cached news articles because globaltimes.cn removed archived articles and my citations just linked to their front page.

reason why this article should be an exception to the normal WP:EL policy - because people who are interested in learning more about serial numbers may not know to look for an "External links" section at the bottom of the page. It is entirely conceivable for someone to be only interested in the serial numbers, not the Gibson Corp. It is, in fact, likely.

glassdoor.com I included the survey of employee reviews in the body, and as to why it's in the lead while other material remains out is, precisely, WP:NPOV. Fleetham (talk) 20:46, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I have been considering your reason for the current use of the external link in the body for a while, and that's exactly why I haven't made the change myself. Instead, I am waiting for a reply on the guideline's talk page before proceeding. Hopefully someone who is more experienced with external links can offer some suggestions. As for the lead, were you agreeing with me in that the lead need to cover the rest of the body more? Keep in mind that you don't need references in the lead, as long as the material is referenced in the body. (An exception might be needed for the criticism because it is likely to be questioned.) I always write the lead last, quickly but thoroughly summarized everything else I had written. Once that's done, the issue with the criticism of the work environment goes away. I'm just saying that it reads as though a disgruntled employee came by and vandalized the article. One other issue to point out is that the use of headings is a bit excessive. Unless you plan to significantly expand those sections, it might be wise to consolidate some of it. – VisionHolder « talk » 21:19, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Per the discussion at the guideline's talk page, the best course of action is to use footnotes to move the link out the body. If you need help doing so, please let me know. – VisionHolder « talk » 06:09, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Criticism Should Be Factual and Authoritative

The Glassdoor.com site is neither. The site allows anyone with an email address to give opinions on a company. There is no attempt to insure the people offering opinions are indeed employees, have not logged in under multiple identities, or that they represent a true sample of all employees. It is very easy to "hijack" the site with a small group of disgruntled but active posters.

Employees who have left positive comments on this site have been harrassed with emails within minutes of posting on the site.

This is not an authoritative site. It does reflect an opinion of a few people but should not be used in a reference work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hjguitar (talk • contribs) 15:19, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

I encourage you to couch your disagreement in terms of WP:SOURCES. As I understand it, even if the original source fails those guidelines in some way, the cited source (a Reuters news article) does not. Fleetham (talk) 15:31, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Who wrote this article ?

This article graphically represents, why WickedPedia, has become a total sham. According to the recent interview with the CEO of Gibson, the raid two years ago has not resulted in ANY CHARGES, NONE... yet you infer that they are guilty.. Gibson has been on the fore front of trying to comply with these ambiguous laws contained in the Lacey Act. The CEO sits on the board of the Rain Forest group, who are leading the charge to protect these woods and renewable resources. And to cite the review by Glassdoor.com, a site that looks like some 16 year old put it together and is based on a total of 9 reviews from some disgruntled employees, yet you site them as some real bona fide review group, quote Gibson USA as a "bad company to work for" WikiPedia YOU ARE MORONS ! and that's my personal opinion, which is as good a source of the rest of the crap you're printing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_-taqM5Sk0&feature=share Listen to this

Kevin Barry — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.12.136.101 (talk) 02:07, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

2011 federal raid

The 24th of August 2011, Gibson has been raid again :

http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/News/gibson-0825-2011/ Jean Philacridus (talk) 05:39, 28 August 2011 (UTC)