Talk:Sun

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Age of the Sun & its eventual death

Nothing is mentioned on the age of the Sun or when it is going to die —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.184.255.157 (talk) 02:03, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

It is in there. Re read the article's section "life cycle", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun#Life_cycle. 98.112.76.201 (talk) 14:36, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Age of sun is left is only 4,24,969 years. as per cycle done . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.89.69.179 (talk) 01:36, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Today's knowledge

Can we add in that this knowledge about the sun is only today's knowledge of astronomy and space and is not confirmed? There is no reason to get children scared about living in the current world and they shouldn't feel they are living on a ticking time bomb. The current knowledge of stellar evolution will more likely change over their lifetime. Sunshinekind (talk) 03:24, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not going to qualify every statement of scientific understanding with "according to current consensus, which might change." (That is implicit.) Nor is Wikipedia written to avoid scaring kids - but if it was, we might first want to address, say, the article on Jeffrey Dahmer. A threat that's about 5.5 billion years in the future is just about the last thing that would need to be "softened." Jeh (talk) 04:09, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I understand that Wikipedia doesn't need to explain every scientific theory. But from what I know about science (I grew up in a family of scientists) you still need to mention it as a theory (eg Big Bang Theory) as it cannot been scientifically proven as fact. I'm not against all the work astrophysicists have done to try and solve the mystery, I just think the stellar evolution of the sun should be seen as current theory. Just remember once upon a time we used to 'know' the earth was flat - but we were clearly wrong. Sunshinekind (talk) 09:34, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Please can you give a credible source for your claim that scientists published the fact that earth is flat. --Stone (talk) 11:31, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

But we still don't need to explain science on every science-based article, and say stuff like "It's only a theory". If people want to learn about science in general - about how science works, what "theory" means in scientific terms (it doesn't mean "just an idea, not a fact" - gravity is still a "theory", but we're not all going to start floating away any time soon), etc, we have a bunch of more general articles covering all of that - Portal:Science is a good start. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:05, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

To Sunshinekind: Um, science never claims to have "scientifically proven as fact" anything. (Mathematics, yes. Not science.) Theories can be proven false, but not proven true; the best science ever does in that direction is to find more and more evidence that supports a theory and while finding none to reject it. Jeh (talk) 17:07, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. I see where you are coming from - I guess I just struggle with the idea of the world not being here one day. Quite sad really, its very beautiful Sunshinekind (talk) 01:40, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Only at one time will anything in the universe be open to the title of 'fact' This is when or if a unified field theory paired with several thousand years of research yet to come, Reveal the infinite chain of cause and effect on the smallest and largest magnitudes of any perceived force, object or indeed concept. That is to say 'we know it inside and out' And fortunately I for one don't believe this is possible given our fallible, restricted perceptions bore down by our beautifully flawed biology. I'd rather wonder about the cosmos in all it's possibilities than tediously recite its details. peace. (TheGarden1988 07:57 30/5/2011) — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheGarden1988 (talk • contribs) 06:56, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, only God knows the "true facts", but there is no reason why Wikipedia cannot state the best current theories for those of us who not only stand back in wonder and awe but also wish to understand some of the subtleties and complexities. Dbfirs 07:06, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Recommend remove this sentence: When expanding the spectrum of light from the Sun, a large number of missing colors can be found.

The sentence is meaningless as it stands, and has bad grammar to boot. It may be intended to state that there are a large number of absorption lines. If so, the sentence should read something like, "There are on the order of X absorption lines in the visible part of the Solar spectrum." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cosmicjay (talk • contribs) 00:25, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I've removed the sentence and linked to the article on Fraunhofer lines. Feezo (send a signal | watch the sky) 20:28, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Replaced the false color image of sun in the lede

Refer to Template_talk:Solar_System_Infobox/Sun#Replaced_the_false_color_image_of_sun. talk section of info box . Dave3457 (talk) 00:45, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

This is a false color image of the sun and is not what the sun looks like. The wavelength of light used is a single extreme ultraviolet wavelength.

This is what the sun actually looks..

There is, what I feel to be a very important debate going on about what the lede image of the sun should be in this article. The present image is very misleading. Please go to the above link and give your input. Dave3457 (talk) 04:08, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Debate? I don't see a debate. You answered yourself. Not much of a debate. In fact, neither image is true. Both are taken through filters, because you can't look at the Sun in true light. Serendi^podous 06:32, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Refer to above link for response. Dave3457 (talk) 04:05, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

editsemiprotected

Please remove the erroneous final period from the image caption

Motion of barycenter of Solar System relative to the Sun.

in section Motion and location within the galaxy, in accordance with WP:CAPTIONS. Thank you! --213.168.116.136 (talk) 21:05, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

(Also, while you're at it, you may want to improve the wording of the caption as well, maybe along the lines of

Motion of the barycenter of the Solar System relative to the Sun

--213.168.116.136 (talk) 21:08, 19 June 2011 (UTC))

Period removed, the caption already contains the 2nd. Vsmith (talk) 22:00, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks so far. On my second point (which is more of a personal suggestion), I think that omitting the "the"s as the current caption does is a bit awkward. Consider the current wording:

Motion of barycenter of Solar System relative to the Sun

versus my suggestion:

Motion of the barycenter of the Solar System relative to the Sun

If you think the former is better, feel free to leave it as is. (Just wanted to note the difference since you appear to have overlooked my suggested addition of two "the"s.) --84.44.228.41 (talk) 15:09, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Heh - seems I'm blind sometimes. Vsmith (talk) 17:10, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

np. thanks a bunch! --84.44.228.41 (talk) 17:31, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Speed of SUN

User:Materialscientist you wrote "the value is way off and is of unclear relation to the lead of this article" [1]. Light particles part of SUN are traveling at 186,413.22 miles per second while sun is expanding. You can compare it to a balloon traveling while its blown. The edit made by me was well referenced "The velocity of sun by Sayan a thirteen century (died 1387) commentator of Rigveda cited to be 186,413.22 miles per second "tatha ca smaryate yojananam. sahasre dve dve sate dve ca yojane ekena nimishardhena kramaman" and its translation is "[O Sun,] bow to you, you who traverse 2,202 yojanas in half a nimes.". As per Prof Kak the velocity comes to "186,413.22 miles per second" http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/sayana.pdf, (accessed 15 Feb 2011), the referenced information is accessed from Indian Journal of History of Science, vol. 33, 1998, pp. 31-3". Please explain why you reverted the same?Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 04:51, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Apparently you are confusing velocity of the sun and speed of light, which is what Kak is writing about, and which is not relevant to the lead of this article. Materialscientist (talk) 04:54, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

I am referring to what Sayan has cited, isn't it about the speed of SUN? Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 04:58, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Please read again his article, and this article (the infobox gives a summary of velocities of the Sun). Materialscientist (talk) 05:00, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

But, it does not inform about velocity of Sun while it is expanding. Sayan is citing about the Sun's expanding velocity. Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 05:11, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

The cited source doesn't say anything of the sort. It examines what Sayana might have meant - if he meant the speed of light, then according to one interpretation of the measurements used he was very close (perhaps by coincidence), but if he meant the speed of the Sun he was hopelessly wrong. There's no mention of any "expanding" in there -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 05:28, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

"but if he meant the speed of the Sun he was hopelessly wrong", Does physics say velocity of expansion of Sun is not velocity of Sun? If a balloon is blown the outer diameter does that not travel? "Velocity" is the measurement of the rate and direction of change in the position of an object. So, does part (LIGHT) of SUN not change positions while they expand? So, when light (Particles of SUN) travels does not mean Sun travels (while expanding)? Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 05:47, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Please quote the part of the cited source that talks about "expansion" - I've read it twice and I can't find any mention of it -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 05:51, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

(PS: As an aside, the Sun has never expanded at anything remotely close to 186,000 miles per second - in fact, I don't know whether it has ever expanded at all, has it? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 05:54, 7 July 2011 (UTC))

Assuming balloon travels at X speed while it expands, can one reply the following when one is asked "Q. At what speed is the balloon traveling?"... "A. The balloon is traveling at X speed" Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 06:08, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

I repeat, again and for the last time, there is NOTHING about expansion in the cited source! -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 06:19, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Is it written that the following is cited by Sayan "[O Sun,] bow to you, you who traverse 2,202 yojanas in half a nimes." and this velocity comes to "186,413.22 miles per second" Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 06:25, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

And where in that sentence can you see the word "expand" or "expansion"? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 06:28, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

When you mention about Velocity of an object is that necessary to mention in what mode (weather expanding or not) is it traveling?Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 06:33, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

It says "traverse"! It does not say "expand"! Please, just tell us where you got this "expansion" business from? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 06:39, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Do an object "traverse" while that expands? Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 06:41, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

No, traversal has got nothing to do with expansion, and there is no mention of expansion in the Kak paper -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 06:50, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

"traversal has got nothing to do with expansion" it's scientifically an incorrect statement. Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 06:57, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Sorry dude, but I'm not going to waste any more time arguing with you - there is no mention of expansion in the paper, traversal is not expansion, the idea that the Sun has ever expanded at 186,000 miles per second is simply nonsense - and that's all there is to it. I'll leave you to see if you can get a consensus to support your interpretation -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:02, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Arguments are for good aren't they? they help arriving at an appropriate "consensus" don't they? Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 07:30, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

I repeat what I wrote before and leave it for everyones consensus. Assuming balloon travels at X speed while it expands along the radius, can one reply the following when one is asked "Q. At what speed is the balloon traveling?"... "A. The balloon is traveling at X speed". In the same manner SUN is a mass of incandescent gas which is expanding while its rays are traversing indefinitely in the Universe. As with the expanding balloon for the question on velocity "Q. At what speed is the balloon traveling?" the answer can very much be "A. The balloon is traveling at X speed", even in case of Sun, the answer very much is "The Sun traverse 186,413.22 miles per second". Because sunlight (the other-most layer of SUN) is very much part of Sun as the outer most visible layer of the balloon is to the balloon.Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 09:22, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

And I'll repeat once more that there is no mention whatsoever of anything expanding in the cited source and that Sayana doesn't mention sunlight, so what you are saying is utterly irrelevant. I've looked back at your Talk page history, including your previous username, and it seems you've long had a problem with personal interpretation and analysis of primary sources. You really should have learned by now that the only thing that goes into Wikipedia articles is material that can be directly referenced to reliable sources, and not personal analysis or speculation - and certainly not your personal attempts to square Vedic sources with science. You are perfectly welcome to believe that Sayana was talking about the "expansion of light" from the sun if you want, but unless he specifically said that or there are reliable sources that make that argument, it simply does not belong on Wikipedia. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:36, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

I initially did not cite anything about expansion of sun at this talk page, I only cited about the speed of SUN being mentioned by Sayan and same being referred by Prof. Kak. It was you ("but if he meant the speed of the Sun he was hopelessly wrong") and Materialscientist ("Apparently you are confusing velocity of the sun and speed of light") having doubts over what was written. So, I needed to quiz you both if had considered about Sun's expansion while emitting light along it's radius to arrive at Sun's speed.Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 15:08, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

No, it was Dr Kak who was asking the question about whether Sayana was referring to the speed of the Sun or of its light, in the paper, not me, which is the only reason I raised it - it was not my speculation or uncertainty at all. As Kak points out, if Sayana meant the speed of the Sun itself as it traverses the sky, he was badly wrong (and that means it is not a useful source for this article at Wikipedia). If he meant the speed of light, he was very close, but that's not what the article is about, so again it is no use for us here. That is all. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:52, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

I know what Prof Kak wrote there, has Prof Kak not agreed that the verse is written with respect to sun? In those days or for that matter even today Sun is seen as a living soul. If you start illuminating by yourself like Sun and your parts (rays emitted) move at 186,413.22 miles per second which a Risi sees and admires with the above words would that be wrong?Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 03:17, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

It sounds like clutching at straws in trying to find a modern interpretation of obscure Sanscrit. By that interpretation, all objects that you can see must "traverse" at the speed of light. Which original word is translated "traverses"? Can it be translated "radiates"? Dbfirs 06:38, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

You're really not listening, are you Ganesh? If it *does not state something explicitly in a source* then it cannot go in a Wikipedia article. Nobody here is interested in your personal interpretation or speculation - and if you want to publish your own interpretations of Vedic sources, you'll have to go find somewhere else to do it -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:27, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

What is Expansion Scientifically?

How would you explain "A Matter Expands" scientifically? Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 06:15, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Look, here's what the abstract says...

"In his commentary on the Rigveda, the fourteenth century scholar Sa ̄yan.a mentions a specific speed for the sun which can be used to de- termine the distance to the sun. Vartak has interpreted this statement to stand for the speed of light but we cannot place that in any reason- able historical context. The distance to the sun implied by Sa ̄yan.a’s statement suggests that there was another astronomical tradition in India which is now lost."

And the quote from Sayana is...

"Thus it is remembered: [O Sun,] bow to you, you who traverse 2,202 yojanas in half a nimesa.'"

It's clearly talking about a *traversal* speed - ie the speed with which the Sun moves across the sky - and says nothing whatsoever about expansion. And if the actual traversal speed is known, the distance can be calculated. Unfortunately, Sayana produces a hopelessly incorrect value for the Sun's traversal speed and therefore for its distance too. Sayana's speed is close to the actual speed of light, and others have suggested that is what he meant, but Dr Kak's paper suggests that that is coincidence and Sayana simply got it wrong, basing his figures on some now-lost tradition. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 06:38, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I think Sayana's claim belongs in an article about the history of India, not this article. Whether is is an amazingly accurate estimate of the "expansion" of light from the sun, or just a strange coincidence can be discussed there. Dbfirs 07:44, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

The concept of "expansion" is not even hinted at anywhere in the paper, so it really isn't anything to do with "expansion of light from the sun" at all -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:43, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree, I can't see how traversal can be interpreted to mean expansion, but I don't know any ancient Indian (Sanskrit?). Ancient texts can often be reinterpreted in the light of subsequent knowledge, but in any case the discussion (if there is one) should go in a History article. Dbfirs 16:00, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Shape

It says the sun is 'almost perfectly spherical' is there a technical word to describe the suns shape for example the earth is geoid. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Gaon (talk • contribs) 10:59, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, logically, it would be something like "soloid", but I wouldn't recommend using that neologism, partly because it has already been claimed in fringe "pseudo-science" pulsoid theory, partly because we have the term sphere that almost perfectly describes the shape, and partly because the deviations from perfect sphericity are variable. The earth's geoid (almost an oblate spheroid) is reasonably constant and easily measured. Dbfirs 06:30, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Observation data

The distance from earth is 1 AU (149.60×10^6 km) not 1.496×10^8 km. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.58.71.236 (talk) 13:11, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

avicenna

dear friends i appreciate your work but some very little bits of detail can be seen as deliberate identity attack specially in a featured article like this. Persians do not consider themselves as Arabs and you yourself in many of your articles have accepted it as a fact. to Persians Avicenna is a national hero and putting his name under Arab scientist here in Iran is observed as an insult. please correct it.

regards

behzad — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.98.90.76 (talk) 09:38, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Iranians of my acquaintance would be most offended to be called Arabs. I'm sure the insult was not intended, but arose through confusion in some Western minds between "Arab" and "Islamic". I have split the paragraph to try to avoid the confusion, but please make further corrections to make the cultural origins clear. Dbfirs 16:21, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

thanks a lot; i appreciate that. i guess it was a great idea to split it, changing Arab to Islamic could also do.

i wish you success

Observation and effects typos

There is a typo in the first sentence. someone fix it, it doesnt make sense Glennnnelg (talk) 17:31, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

behzad — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.99.175.6 (talk) 18:37, 29 August 2011 (UTC)