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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Nair (talk | contribs) at 00:53, 1 September 2011 (Hoax). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Lede section

Hi,

Why is the following present in Nair section lede?

"Nairs live in large family units called tharavads and practiced an unusual marriage system. Tharavads were large family units where descendents of one common ancestress lived, often consisting of as many as 80 members. Nair marriage was divided into two separate rituals, the pre-puberty thalikettu kalyanam and the later sambandham. This practice led to some women (predominantly from central Kerala) bearing legitimate children with several husbands, and in some areas it lasted until the 1960s. Some Nair women from higher subdivisions also practiced hypergamy with Nambudiri Brahmins from the Malabar area."

..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 13:55, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

MatthewVanitas added that, I think. If not then it was CarTick. In any event, what do you object to? The lede is a summary of the article and this paragraph (which an IP or logged-out user recently queried with cite requests) is a valid summary. - Sitush (talk) 13:58, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Was not myself that added it, I just didn't feel familiar enough with that aspect, so I mostly did military history, diet, attire. That said, the Nair's marriage system was indeed quite unusual, and widely commented on by academics. Not just Indiologists, but when sociologists in general explore the extremes of marriage systems, the Nair are one of the first groups mentioned for having a very distinct system. I could see discussing the best way to phrase it concisely, but I don't see any NPOV way that we could not have a mention of Nair marriage systems in the lede. MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:01, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The article itself says that these are controversial, and later that the practice declined 1900 onwards. Am I reading this incorrectly or is this an attempt to give some kind of POV, considering that the article is much more than the marriage practice? ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 14:11, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There are a few problems with the lede on polyandry. (1) Only a small minority of Nairs in Central Kerala practiced this. The vast majority of those in the South and North didn't practiced it. Central Nairs are mostly Charna Nairs, who rank lower than Kiryathils of the North and Illath of South. (2) Polyandry was widely practiced in Kerala, and the main practitioners of it were not Nairs, but lower ranking Savarna castes such as Kammalans. (3) Sources about polyandry are written by a few European researchers, who don't have first hand experience about this, and many of them haven't even visited Kerala. The last recorded instance of polyandry among Nairs date back to mid-19th century (Not 1900). (4) There are travelogues written by many European explorers like Duarte Barbosa, and none of them mentions polyandry. But every single one of them mentions about the martial traditions of Nairs. I find it quite ironic that the martial history is completely ignored and POV prone issues like polyandry are given undue weight (however a few Evangelical Christian editors who are super-active here for the past 2-3 months will disagree with this statement). 160.80.2.8 (talk) 14:27, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Barbosa did mention the unusual marriage arrangements. The article does discuss the geographic differences regarding these practices. The article does mention the military history (there is a whole section on it!). And so on. I am wondering whether you have actually read the article or been asked to throw a comment in here, because you are fundamentally wrong regarding the content. Sorry, but perhaps you need to read it again? - Sitush (talk) 14:31, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Bayley, Gooch, Jeffrey & Chris what-his-name all visited and lived in the region. So, too, did Panikkar. A point is made that Panikkar's experience differed from another commentator probably because of the differences around the region. In other words, we have covered every angle, in depth. It may be true that other commentators have not lived in the region but it is not true of the ones used here. - Sitush (talk) 14:33, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And, by the way, I for one am not even Christian, let alone an evangelical one. I am on record about this - perhaps do your research first? - Sitush (talk) 14:35, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The lede looks like, in absence of current practice, a whole paragraph of misinformation as if it is an ongoing practice. IP, Do you have any reliable sources for martial history? ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 14:36, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

With the exception of one word, the tense of which has got lost in a recent bad edit, everything in the lead is correctly "tensed". The present tense is used when appropriate, the past when appropriate and there are also words such as "Historically, ..." Are we reading the same article here or are you just being a bit silly? - Sitush (talk) 14:45, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Traditionally the Nayar practiced Kalarippayat, especially those styles of Kalarippayat indicated by the northern tradition. They were one of the castes that had the right to bear arms, a right withheld from most other castes. The Nairs were Kerala's ruling and warrior caste.

From here

In this land of Malabar, there is another caste of people called Nayres, and among them are noblemen who have no other duty other than to serve in the war.

From here 160.80.2.8 (talk) 14:49, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I see that you have been editing for a while. Your first source seems to be useless as it appears to be self-published using Lulu. Your second adds nothing to what is already said and, as a rule, we prefer not to use 300-400 year old sources when more modern ones are available. - Sitush (talk) 14:51, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I was having a conversation with Thisthat. I don't care about pay-for-edit users like you. Stay out of this conversation. 160.80.2.8 (talk) 14:58, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi,

The lede section contains unnecessary mention of old practices which themselves are disputed and not in practice since last 60+ years.

I had reverted the paragraph, though it is put again by this edit.

Let me know why the lede needs such a mention in the first place. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 14:53, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The lede needs to be left as such, as the Evangelical Christian Church feels that more Hindus will convert to Christianity if they are ashamed of their history. 160.80.2.8 (talk) 14:58, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
TT, did you just ignore the entire discussion an hour ago, and start a new section as though it never happened? Sitush just explicitly explained to you why he thinks this is pertinent, and rather than discuss it you start a new section? This is WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and just another example of why you've been called "tendentious". MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:55, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Welcome MW. I was wondering where were you. The initial discussion was about why the section was in lede, when the practice, however referenced is not current.
Then Sitush changed 'tense'. But that does not explain why it should be in lede.
I was wondering how the present tense in the lede was missed for all clarity expected from neutral editors. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 15:06, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I wondered whether it was MangoWong editing while logged out. Another block on the way, then. As for the typo, that is a direct consequence of (presumably Indian) editors fiddling with the thing in order to sanitise it. I've fixed it, no big deal. - Sitush (talk) 15:09, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
How does the lines like "This practice led to some women (predominantly from central Kerala) bearing legitimate children with several husbands, and in some areas it lasted until the 1960s. Some Nair women from higher subdivisions also practiced hypergamy with Nambudiri Brahmins from the Malabar area." make it to the lede? ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 15:17, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) One way in which the article needs improving is in fact to cover more of the modern day community. I for one have asked for help with this in the past but the only response was the usual sanitisation effort, nothing positive at all. Obviously, if there was more regarding the present day situation then the lede would have to reflect that. The ball is in your court. It would be nice to see something positive happen where you are involved, TT. - Sitush (talk) 15:18, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What is wrong with it? You keep asking questions but not giving reasons for your objections. Pointless: we cannot your mind. - Sitush (talk) 15:20, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The point I mentioned above, is why is the practice ..leading to 'some'.. as pointed makes it to the lede? It is WP:UNDUE. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 15:26, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In what way is it undue weight? I am open-minded about this because I have had nothing to do with the content of the lede other than basic fixes such as the one you saw me do a few minutes ago. Bear in mind that even if the part you refer to is taken out of the lead, it stays in the article. - Sitush (talk) 15:37, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This article is mentioning 60% of negative aspect of nair community & 40% some facts .If there were some positive aspects like exclusive right to carry swords or some workers have compared nairs to samurais of japan relating to honor codes [bushido] , honor killing [seppuku] etc . then according to genetic data it is safe to say about the scythian origin of nairs than the misleading dog origins. sitush & mouth of sitush[mv] is simply asking for rebellion . 122.172.216.204 (talk) 16:45, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Could you put out the positive & negative aspects of Nair community on this page please? ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 16:56, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is no need of arguing here. We have seen one of the admins acting with extreme bias and banning of more than 50 users in this article alone. Unless that admin is kept out, there is no use of any discussion in this talk page. Axxn (talk) 16:58, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If admins have blocked users on such grounds, I think it is time to revisit the standards, but that is what I think. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 16:59, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Re: "We have seen one of the admins acting with extreme bias and banning of more than 50 users in this article alone" - Oh come on, we've told you guys ten million times not to exaggerate! If you have any complaints about the behaviour of any admins, take it to WP:ANI - this page is for discussing article content -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:23, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Look whos this the champ! exterminator! of rouge ips himself!! Well you had the support of all that administrators thats why you were elected as one to begin with . I never seen an administrator fired other than cause hes visibly insane .WP:ANI is a sad joke in wp . you ban all ips & say that you will post there complaints about you on the WP:ANI? laughable!! any with least pride wont follow you instruction.122.172.216.204 (talk) 18:34, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Responding to the last msg from IP22:
  • they had a right to carry swords, which was then taken off them due to their failings. This is mentioned in the article but could be looked into a little deeper. Any "exclusive right" would only have applied in a limited area, of course, and we would have to delve more deeply into why they were disarmed. It was for this reason (trying not to cause more offence) that it was not emphasised in the recent past

Rebellion against british aint an offense if that what you mean. Other than that I like to know what hidden offensive reason you are talking about. 122.172.216.204 (talk) 18:34, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • the samurai thing was, to the best of my knowledge, one person and it was derided by the academic community. But it is some time since I read that bit. I have the feeling that this was in the article at some point and removed as being uncited (there are still uncited bits from before my first edit here, but they will not be there for much longer because everyone has had a chance to sort them out by now)

I will check it out then.122.172.216.204 (talk) 18:34, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • genetic data is unreliable, period. There are as many studies querying the results as there are studies showing the results. The big problems include that they rely on self-identification and the sample sizes have not been large enough to produce a statistically significant result (chi-square etc tests for significance have been woefully absent). Furthermore, a lot of those studies are of the "not really for publication" variety: they have disclaimers on them to the effect that the data is indeed interesting but not academically rigorous enough to make a firm statement about, well, pretty much anything. Now, if you can find some to the contrary then that would be great but we really do not want to be fazing the lay reader with details of hapiotypes etc, so we really want a layman's summary. And it would need to be checked by a scientific whizz (perhaps someone from the medicine project).

I think its simply more reliable than dog legend . 122.172.216.204 (talk) 18:34, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • No-one is commenting on the present-day situation which I raised: that is the way to fix the lede, but for some reason having said "it focuses on past issues", you are all raising other historic points. That is hypocritical, sort of. - Sitush (talk) 17:53, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Another thing you could have done to make this article look more npov & to stop the opposition is to put that rajkiris nair woman image rather than what is right now. This two woman looks like kurichya adivasi from wayanad district. actually those tribals used to mimic nairs at dress code. 122.172.216.204 (talk) 18:34, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Rebellion against any governing power is, technically, an offence. But if the rebels succeed then obviously they will not punish themselves :)
  • Samurai - feel free. I will do also when I have some time
  • The dog legend will not go just because genetic data comes in. So if that is your purpose just let me know now and save me some effort, please.
  • I have no idea if the women portrayed are Nair or not. I would have to see the original source for the picture. However, the picture relates to dress and if the group you mention mimicked Nair dress then what is the problem, really? The correct dress is being shown. - Sitush (talk) 19:03, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sitush, the laws have improved long since colonial situation. Before independence, Bhagat Singh was hanged because he offended the Queen, such was the uncivilized state of affairs. After Independence of India, laws have changed and it is clear that any act against the country/people is an offense, and Bhagat Singh would not be hanged as such. By your logic the entire independence movement was illegitimate because it went against the Queen. More on it here.
Do you see what the IP is saying, that the article looks more against the Nairs than for?
If correct dress is shown, I am sure you should be fine with what the chap is saying. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 19:38, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I do not give a fig what the laws say now. The law then, and still now in every civilised country, is that rebellion is an offence. Please do not bring up your broken record of post-colonial bleurgh. It doesn't matter. You are entitled to the opinion but it makes no difference to the article.
If you think that the article is "more against the Nairs than for" then you have two options. Firstly, you could assist in improving it by (for example) coming up with some info that has been requested - check back in the archives, not just the visible bit of this page. Secondly, take it to WP:NPOVN, where I will gladly see you fail yet again. Aside from minor points that pre-date my involvement & that of CarTick, everything is cited to reliable sources. I have already said that the outstanding statements with cite requests need to go. They have only stayed so long as a courtesy to those who had previously created a highly POV article, in order to give them a chance to come up with some verification. I do not understand your last point but, in any event, the picture has been discussed to death recently and it is not going to change just because you have decided to follow me to this article. - Sitush (talk) 19:48, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You are passing off colonial era as civilized by equating it with civilized Governments of this time, thereby meaning that laws during those uncivilized times were as civilized as now. Whether you give a fig's leaf or not does not matter. I am sure even in USA laws have changed. This is common sense, and even if all editors with happy colonial memories yell all over it, it is not going to change.

"take it to WP:NPOVN, where I will gladly see you fail yet again." - this is a direct assumption of future, trying to prove a point by pointing at standards but ignoring the issue of how pages on Wikipedia are to make some Hindu Jatis look terrible. Frankly, I will not go around making and religions' any denominations' pages look so, and I am sure it won;t give me any twisted pleasure of any kind.

"it is not going to change just because you have decided to follow me to this article." - You are assuming too much here to begin with. You are assuming that the picture won't change. Then you are connecting it with another assumption that editors have 'followed you' on various pages in a rather self-Congregational boast, but I will agree it if it can make you happy. At least that won't be self-declared pomp. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 20:05, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, something above just made me laugh. Earlier there were bizarre claims of "Evangelical Christians" having written this article. It seems that TT has narrowed it down a bit & I am now an evangelical Congregationalist. Again, sorry: I do realise that it is a unintended slip, Freudian or otherwise. Funny, though. - Sitush (talk) 20:09, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Again some weird assumptions. Guess this is your weird assumptions day. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 20:17, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Again, I submit you (and many, many others) are confusing "making someone look terrible" with "making the article more than self-glorification". If you think there's a concerted attempt to make jatis look bad, take it to the WP:DR of your choice, but I assure you that we're attempting to balance articles. If you think there's too much negative info, as we've said a zillion times add more info of the sort you'd like to see. Note this does not mean "they are the greatest warriors of all time and conquered everything" nor "they are a royal race descended from the heavens", but actual factual, documented depictions of the achievments of Nair society. MatthewVanitas (talk) 20:12, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I will see what I can do. Perhaps narrowing some stuff may be good enough. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 20:17, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I am not 100% sure what you mean by "perhaps narrowing some stuff may be good enough". If you mean that cutting out some of the present content might appease you & yours then the blunt answer is that it is not going to happen, except for those items where a request for a citation has been in place for a couple of months or longer. Usually I would want to see much more than a couple of months but given the traffic to this article and the number of people commenting on this talk page, 2 or 3 months seems enough: a lot of eyes have seen those requests. For all cited items, there is no need to remove. What may be needed is additional content. - Sitush (talk) 23:46, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:Nair_Women.jpg

From the above thread, I see some editors have expressed their doubt whether File:Nair_Women.jpg actually belongs to Nair. I suggest them to go to this link which is the source of this image. The caption of the image clearly says "NAYAR FEMALES". If you doubt the credibility of the author, well, that is a different issue. -- ॥..शूद्रमक्षरसंयुक्तं दूरतः परिवर्जयेत्..॥ kon [Dotty] 19:25, 30 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Exactly, you sound like a pundit in history, may be you should help the helpless govt out!! .History was no doubt manipulated in all ages by the powerful. Dotty's Bappa (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:29, 2 August 2011 (UTC).[reply]

Bappa, thanks. Ganapati Bappa Moria!! -- ॥..शूद्रमक्षरसंयुक्तं दूरतः परिवर्जयेत्..॥ kon [Dotty] 23:49, 2 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

<redacted> Dotty's Bappa (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:15, 3 August 2011 (UTC).[reply]

I have just redacted the above, which I suspect is obnoxious/pbscene (my knowledge of Malayalam is limited, but growing) - Sitush (talk) 08:47, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, now that this has switched over to another language, I think the usefulness of the conversation to participants on en.wiki has drawn to a close. Only one editor questioned the authenticity of the picture, and that editor hasn't responded, and several others have supported the inclusion of the picture, so it looks like consensus is clear to keep it. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:19, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Martial race" in lede

We have a "cn" tag on the term "Martial race" in the lede; looking over gBooks, I see plenty of mentions of their being martial, but not seeing much really explicit that they were classified as a martial race in the same way as the Rajput (and to a lesser degree, the Maratha). I think we can easily find sources saying "considered as" but "classified" is a bit more explicit and would require something pretty firm and authoritative. I would really like to see something too to verify the claim that they were de-listed as Marital by the British after that failed uprising. I did find a ref saying that after the uprising the Brits kept them out of the military, but again, that is a general observation, whereas "de-listing" is quite precise and specific and requires a more explicit ref. Anyone have any good materials for the cite, or are y'all okay with broadening the phrase to denote more general perceptions and less official decrees? MatthewVanitas (talk) 06:11, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The entire sentence should be removed. Also the next sentence that immediately follows. It is not because there are no reference to martial status, but because there is no need to mention British in the lede. Brits are only one of many Foreign powers who colonized India, and mentioning them alone in the lede is surely undue weight. Btw, this is KondottySultan with new username. --Nair (talk) 07:35, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have been searching also, and yesterday did a little tidying up at the linked article while looking for a corroborating cite there. Something needs to give, I feel. Especially since there have been several appeals here for this info + the tags have been in place for a while.
I do not understand Nair's point about weight (are you sure that you can use that name, btw? it sounds as if you are representing a group & so could be against policy). - Sitush (talk) 07:42, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a new username, it is usurped from another years-old account. The usurpation itself was done by one of those administrators. There are many such usernames: User talk:Ezhava, User talk:Brahmin, User talk:Mexican, User talk:Canadian, User talk:Arab, User talk:America "Nair" is singular and used by millions as a surname. Therefore it is not against any Wikipedia policy. --Nair (talk) 09:55, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, though your raise an interesting point about the British and WP:UNDUE, I would counter-argue that "the British labeled the Fooian caste a Martial Race" is an extremely popular sentence put into WP caste articles. I personally would not object to that phrase being removed, and more general statements about the military nature of the Nair being put into the lede, though I would submit that the British limiting them from military service, but then later allowing the Nair Brigade to form, is worth mentioning in the lede. I will BEBOLD and tweak that sentence now, but I'm open to counter-suggestions, or just revert with no hard feelings if you object and can explain why here. MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:40, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Matthew, Wikipedia:Other stuff exists. I strongly opine that when it comes to Hindu castes, their status or recognition during the Hindu rulers is what counts. That is, the recognition Nairs recieved from Europeans/Muslim rulers/Buddhist emperors is not at all relevant when determining their caste-status or whether they are "martial race" or not, etc. Only local Hindu kings were loyal to caste system and hence the historical status of Nairs should be determined on the basis of how they were officially treated by Hindu kingdoms, such as Travancore. Seriously, I am wondering why you people can't find the current notation in the lede of British raj inappropriate. Four European powers colonized the region: Portuguese, French, Dutch and finally English. Then how can we mention British alone in the lede? We read from the body part that Portuguese also recruited Nairs in their army. This means that if Brits are mentioned in the lede, Ports also should be mentioned. If Brits had a list of "Martial races" then French could have another such list. Again colonial period is only one phase of the long history of Nairs, but this phase was given undue importance. (Not only in the lede, but throughout the article.) --Nair (talk) 02:21, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that if we were discussing colonists then mentioning only one of the colonising nations would be undue weight. However, the reason that the Brits are mentioned in the lead is not because they colonised the place but because the Nairs were (allegedly) a classified as a martial race at that time. The Portuguese (apparently) did not do so. Your argument is based on a false premise. - Sitush (talk) 08:27, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Brahmakshatriya

Something should be mentioned in the article about possible status of Nairs as Brahmakshatriya (Brahmin father, non-brahmin mother). In contrast to other Brahmakshatriyas, such as those in North India, who basically belonged to their father's Brahmin caste, the Brahmakshatriyas of Kerala, since they practiced matriarchy, belonged to their mother's Kshatriya caste.124.180.6.138 (talk) 00:12, 28 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This general issue has been raised previously and I have seen a table of the four possibilities in one of the sources (I forget which one right now). However, this is the first time that I have seen anyone, anywhere use the term Brahmakshatriya. Please could you provide some reliable sources that use the word in connection with the Nair community. In particular because the entire "kshatriya" bit of it is moot. - Sitush (talk) 02:54, 28 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This is purely hoax, like the article Brahmakshatriya. There is no such thing existing as Brahma-kshatriya. The term was never in use in Kerala. Traditionally Nairs were considered as Sudras, not as Kshatriyas and were called Malayala Sudra in Travancore documents. Also, in Hindu intercaste marriages, offsprings were always assigned with lower one of their parents' castes. --Nair (talk) 00:53, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]