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Energy Catalyzer

Energy Catalyzer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Prod contested. This is another free energy scam with a lot of self-promotional publicity but no science behind it. Unless this instance can be contextualized in the realm of pseudoscience or fraud schemes, it should not have an independent article. If hydrogen atoms routinely diffused into nickel to create copper, every stainless frying pan would have disintegrated long ago. You can't achieve nuclear changes with chemical effects, not even if you've got the whole university backing you. Wtshymanski (talk) 17:09, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is a serious misconception as to the Rossi technology. High pressures and elevated temperatures are used, not to mention the alleged catalyst. Diffusing into nickel is not enough.--Brian Josephson (talk) 20:13, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think that there are few 'conceptions', 'mis' or otherwise, involved. We simply have no reliable source whatsoever on what (if anything) the E-Cat contains, never mind how (if) it works. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:17, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wtshymanski is obviously unqualified to make any of the above statements. All his claims are demonstrably false or completely nonsensical. It is glaringly obvious that he is completely out of his area of expertise.Enslaved robot boy (talk) 21:58, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Strong Keep. It is not based on junk science but on the works of Focardi et al. who published in "Il nuovo cimento", the most important Italian physics journal. See "Investigation of anomalous heat production in Ni-H systems". Stengl (talk) 19:48, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep. Afd not justified. Wshymanski what you know about the energy catalyzer and cold fusion wouldn't fill the tiny amount of space between your ears. Why don't you go rub the two iq points you have together and see if you can start a fire like cavemen in the past. Stop wasting our time. Ldussan (talk) 19:05, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Afd not justified. Forbes has 3 articles on it in last 15 days. It has made news for last 10 months in wash post, fox news also. As yet, nobody knows for sure, if its a scam or something real. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.134.164.26 (talk) 05:02, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Afd not justified. This is not a free energy scam or pseudoscience(it has not been proved to be a scam or pseudoscience). It seems like a tendentious Afd proposal made by someone who doesn′t like the subject of the article.--86.125.176.31 (talk) 17:23, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Afd not justified. There is no pseudoscience involved AND media coverage is quite respectable.--NUMB3RN7NE (talk) 17:39, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by nominator The article says hydrogen atoms mutate nickel into copper by what appears to be chemical means. If someone posted an article about spinning flax into gold, we'd shoot it down unless it was clearly labelled fairy tales. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and this story is developing along the same line as every free-energy scammer of the last 1000 years. As another example of overheated claims that would overturn what we know of science, it's not particularly notable. --Wtshymanski (talk) 18:16, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If the article says 'chemical means' that is an error that should be corrected. The energy created by chemical processes is insufficient by some orders of magnitude.--Brian Josephson (talk) 20:13, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:18, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Technology-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:18, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by nominator The first edit by that IP address is above. --Wtshymanski (talk) 18:20, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Afd not justified. The nominator uses his personal OR to argue this Afd. Media coverage is substantial. The nominator appears to be clueless on the topic. Media coverage (section got deleted for dubious reasons) and much more media has reported on the latest demonstrations. Wired, Forbes ... --POVbrigand (talk) 18:47, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Although the science seems dodgy to say the least, media coverage is plentiful. It doesn't matter if it's true or not, or contravenes the laws of physics. The article could do with a cleanup and may be a little on the long side, but the tone seems neutral to me. I think an overhaul would be preferable to a deletion. 109a152a8a146 (talk) 18:56, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by nominator Every time a starlet goes out without panties there's a lot of coverage, too. But it's not significant to the encyclopedia. Non-trivial coverage makes for notability. Major discoveries in physics aren't announced on Fox News and there's no indication this scam is any more notable than any other free-energy scam. Has this one bilked more people out of money than the average energy scam yet? How is this particular scam encyclopedia-worthy? --Wtshymanski (talk) 18:56, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator is merely ranting, not a serious Afd --POVbrigand (talk) 19:25, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Most people here seem to be in agreement that this is not a 'major discovery in physics', and not even scientifically feasible. Still, the comparison to a starlet's panties is contrived, as the same reasoning could be applied to anything that's ever been on the news. The article needs work, but the subject itself is valid, as it has received much more coverage than most other crank theories.
109a152a8a146 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 21:13, 30 October 2011 (UTC).[reply]
Not a major discovery in physics, agreed. The major discovery was that of Fleischmann and Pons in 1989. This is a major advance in technology as previously the energies involved in LENR were very low in comparison.--Brian Josephson (talk) 20:13, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There are no reliable sources whatsoever that tell us anything useful about Rossi's 'technology', beyond his own unverifiable assertions. It cannot therefore possibly be a 'major' anything. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:30, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sir, you need to calm down. Your repeated flinging about the accusation of scam is going over the top and marks your posting as ranting. Zedshort (talk) 17:47, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This development has plenty of news coverage. The science has not been established. The evidence points in the direction that it is not a hoax. Even if it is a hoax, it needs an article to give the up-to-date status. Therefore, keep. --EPadmirateur (talk) 19:38, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by nominator WP:NOTNEWS - this isn't the place to publish original research. It's a hoax because you can't change nickel to copper by rubbing it with a bit of Crisco, no matter how many journalism students have attended your press conference. The coverage doesn't show that this scam is any more significant than the last scam. --Wtshymanski (talk) 19:45, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator is using one fallacy after the other --POVbrigand (talk) 19:54, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Really? Who can transmute elements by dipping them in a beaker? We know the patter line is a hoax, so the only question of notability is if this hoaxer is somewhat more significant than the average peddler of free-energy scams. The coverage doesn't compare this one to others. --Wtshymanski (talk) 19:57, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Nothing in the nomination really stands up. We do cover scams and nonsense science. Anything else is a question of WP:NPOV and editing, not deletion. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:07, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Ah, but it is presented as science fact rather than science nonsense in this spammy article. Such earthshaking claims of using chemical reactions to transmute elements need sound coverage in peer-reviewed scientific journals and science textbooks from respected publishers. Tabloids and sensationalistic TV news channels are not reliable sources for claims of breakthroughs in physics or chemistry. Plainly contradicted by chemistry textbooks. Edison (talk) 20:37, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Chemistry textbooks not relevant source, dealing purely with processes of a chemical nature and thus excluding many processes known to physics.--Brian Josephson (talk) 20:21, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
respected publisher American_Chemical_Society: ISBN 978-0-841-22454-4 ; ISBN 978-0-8412-6966-8
--POVbrigand (talk) 20:55, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Media coverage is sufficient for the subject to worth a topic in Wikipedia no matter if it turns out to be a Ponzi scam, fairy tale or world-overturning energetic revolution. There is no rule Wikipedia cannot have articles on scam topics — instead, as long as a particular one becomes a topic of wide interest, it would be a miss not to have an article on it. Honeyman (talk) 20:39, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I have suggested in the past that this article be deleted, but it seems to me that this nomination is flawed. It isn't up to Wikipedia to assert that this is a scam, even when faced with such clear indications that it may well be. And nor is it our job to declare that it is 'scientifically impossible' - we would need to find a source that said that about Rossi's magic teapot 'E-Cat' itself. No, the question should be is it possible to write an encyclopaedic article about this? There are a few sources that seem to meet WP:RS criteria, most notably Ny Teknik - though reliance on a single source is always problematic, and they seem on occasion to have overstepped the line between journalism and 'scientific testing', while clearly unqualified for the latter. If one bases an article on reliable sources, all that can really be said is that Rossi keeps producing devices, and in convincing people that they produce excess heat. There is no 'science' to speak of, as Rossi refuses to divulge sufficient information to test its validity. There appear to be two types of 'customer' reported - ones who cancel their contract, and ones who may well not exist at all, as far as we have any verifiable evidence. Almost everything else is hype, speculation, and crystal-ball-gazing. It may be possible to write an article about the E-Cat one day, but for now there simply isn't enough material for anything other than a recounting of Rossi's claims, and a repetitive description of each 'demonstration' - though if we exclude the 'results' on the basis that this isn't peer-reviewed science (as would be necessary to support such extraordinary claims), all we have on that is a date, a list of attendees, and a description of whatever Rossi's plumber Rossi has constructed that week. On this basis, I am inclined to suggest that the article be deleted, as covering a subject that cannot be sourced sufficiently well to produce an encyclopaedic article. Of course, after Rossi gets his Nobel Prize, his spell behind bars, or whatever the outcome is, someone may be able to piece together enough evidence to make an article possible - which is to say, someone can provide us with a reliable source that actually tells us what is in the teapot E-Cat, and whether it is producing excess heat or excess gullibility. For now, the best article on the E-Cat would probably be the shortest: "E-Cat: see unicorn". Unless someone can convince me otherwise, by explaining how an encyclopedia can describe a device of unknown construction that may or may not do something significant, I'm inclined to argue for deletion - though not on the grounds of the proposer. Meanwhile, can I ask that those taking part in this AfD take time to look at the article, with a view to making it at least a little less full of speculation, hype, and wishful thinking. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:57, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"how an encyclopedia can describe a device of unknown construction that may or may not do something significant,"
By saying that it's of unknown construction and unknown efficacy. If that's all we can say, then that's all we should say. Seriously - it's longer than "see unicorn", but a one-para article might well be appropriate. This is still different from deletion. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:15, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Might I suggest that you write such an article (in say your user space), and if this AfD closes as 'keep', propose that it replaces the existing one? That would clearly be a worthwhile exercise. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:21, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at it more carefully, there is far more than one para that should survive anyway. The descriptions of the public tests are adequately sourced and illustrative of the device's obvious and evident behaviour, even if they don't go into much detail. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:43, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Not pseudoscience. There are many papers on it in regular scientific journals.--Brian Josephson (talk) 20:21, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I was not saying that cold fusion was a pseudoscience. There has been plenty of reliable experimental research done on that subject. All of the reproducible work shows that the effect does not exist (or, at least, such goes the consensus). My comment was directed the present article. However, in view of the widespread publicity that the subject has attracted, I think that a better approach to the article may that of Bhny below. Xxanthippe (talk) 23:07, 31 October 2011 (UTC).[reply]
  • Merge to cold fusion. I especially like the way they say, "it's not CF, it's LENR"— which redirects to CF. The article is heavily padded with primary sources, and when the dust settles it may well mark the point at which CF moved from bad science to scam; other than that the notability of this is going to be low. Mangoe (talk) 22:05, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I fully endorse the concerns raised about the quality of sourcing and the painfully credulous point of view espoused by the article's dominant editors. I have noted previously on the article's talk page that the style of our article would be more appropriate to a blog – where every new press release or snippet of trivial coverage is breathlessly reported in a new section, and where every dog-and-pony 'demonstration' is treated as fact – than to an encyclopedia. Unfortunately, there are enough 'true believers' who are watching the article to prevent and revert the sort of aggressive pruning that would be required to bring this article in line with Wikipedia standards. We're in the awkward position of having an article that is too poor to be retained as it stands (and which can't by any practical method be fixed), on a topic that may just barely squeak through some sort of objective test of 'notability' as a social – not scientific – phenomenon (and so can't easily be deleted). Mangoe's merge suggestion has merit, as there really aren't very many good sources on this topic, and the serious-bordering-on-irreparable problems of WP:WEIGHT could be diluted if not ameliorated by putting a limited, appropriate amount of material into a suitable parent article. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:17, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Basically if we merge it with Cold Fusion we heavily mix a scientific matter of study with a device, and this does not seem quite appropriate to me.
    About notability: Forbes wrote a series of articles about it (the most recent: http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2011/10/30/believing-in-cold-fusion-and-the-e-cat/ ), Wired wrote a series of articles about it (the most recent: http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-10/29/rossi-success ), hence the sources are very popular magazines indeed. --79.24.134.204 (talk) 22:47, 30 October 2011 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
  • Comment. Merging into cold fusion is not a good option, because the device is already mentioned there nicely concisely. ie merging would effectively mean deleting. As TenOfAllTrades already mentioned, the device is notable as a social phenomenon, not as a scientific one. I can count myself as one of the article's dominant editors (since a few weeks), but I cannot agree to having a credulous point of view. There is no scientific proof whatsoever how the Rossi device functions. Until we have, we must leave science out of the discussion and out of the article. I have already made proposals several times how we can come to a more concise version, but couldn't get a consensus mainly due to the deletionist party. My proposal for clear disclaimers [1] was reverted by AndyTheGrump [2]. --POVbrigand (talk) 23:25, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A properly-Written article shouldn't need 'disclaimers' - but my objection to that edit was that we don't need "not been independently verified" twice in the same paragraph. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:32, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. This may be a fraud, or a scam (note: personally, I think it is legitimate phenomenon, but incomplete science), but it is increasingly discussed, in increasingly mainstream media. (NyTeknik, Wired, Network World, Forbes, Italian network television (TG2)). The deletionist proposition is that the reaction can't be chemically-induced nuclear reactions, and is therefore junk science. It doesn't really matter what the actual reaction is: if it is a useful, economically viable device it is worth an article. SeanTrue (talk) 02:23, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"If". See WP:NOTCRYSTALBALL. And no, 'junk science' is by no means the only argument for deletion. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:27, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Afd is definitely unnecessary at this stage. There's plenty of WP:RS, and increasing amounts of it. Call for deletion is malicious at best.Tmccc (talk) 12:50, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Although there are certainly various problems with the article, but it clearly meets the GNG and so regardless of whether it really works or not, we should have an article about it. SmartSE (talk) 13:37, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. After reading multiple popular press reports, I want to go to Wikipedia to see objective analysis and references. Of course, there's a high probability that it is a hoax, but I trust Wikipedia to have a great article for and against. I was especially interested in whatever's known about the science which is not well covered in popular media. I don't know where the article belongs, but Wikipedia does provide a needed service as a central objective source of information. FlintOBrien —Preceding undated comment added 13:50, 31 October 2011 (UTC).[reply]

There is nothing whatever known about the science to include in the article, and until Rossi subjects his teapot to proper scientific analysis, there won't be. And no, we can't write an article 'for and against' something that we know nothing about, beyond its appearances at Rossi's staged 'demonstrations'. Everything else is hype, spin, and old-fashioned bullshit. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:48, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, Been present at the oct6 testing of the device, I confirm a 100% certain that the average outflowing water was about 8-10°C warmer than the inflowing water on a 600l/h basis, and this for several hours. There were indeed some errors, but from a technical point of view (and having quadruple checked the thermometers after the test in the full range of the measured temperatures: they measured equal and within a precision range of 0,1 °C), all corrections that have to be made are in favor of the device. One simple item everyone can check on the pictures from NyTeknik (1 and 7): the thermometer on the inflow side was connected to the release-ring of the hose, so it did not make contact with a metal part that made contact with the flow, so basically it was influenced by environmental temperature. (28-29°C). There is not much variation of the tap water temperature in Italy, and the water measured 23,8 degrees before the test. The electricity that went into the device(s) was not measured very precisely, but I also confirm that other simple physical test proved 100% certain that the input power did not exceeded 2500 Watts, and in self sustaining mode there was indeed no significant energy consumption for almost four hours. No other electric cables were in use. Besides that, multiple disciplines of scientists were present, and observed their items, and also confirmed a successful evidence of controllable and stable nuclear reactions that were happening inside the reactor, by measuring.... . I cannot talk about that.
The amount of kettle stone that was formed, also on the nuts and bolt that closed the inner-core of the e-cat, proves that this same device had been used for longer periods before this test and without being opened in between.
In fact the effort of those that are trying to hide or deny the device, is near a criminal act against humanity. I believe Wikipedia cannot support such behavior. With a match and a trunk of a live oak, you can scientifically prove that wood cannot burn, and by doing so, sending whole populations to die from cold. In fact, lots of people even have difficulties igniting their BBQ and therefore they use all sorts of auxiliary materials to start a fire. E-cat is about auxiliary stuff to improve the efficiency. You can only deny a phenomenon if you have done all possible and thinkable effort to prove it exists and never have found even a glimpse of a positive result. The world is very far past the point of denial of effects happening in solid state metals. So the guys that did not try to observe nor explain nor reproduce the phenomenon with enough effort, even have no reason to speak at all. I recommend them to speak open and clear about their own business in which they are the real experts. More information about their work would be valuable too for Wikipedia. Almost every musician, painter or sportsman has his own place in wikipedia. Even fictional personages from comics and movies have their pages. And now the e-cat should be hidden as fast as possible ? --Kv1970 (talk) 16:57, 31 October 2011 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.72.88.234 (talk) 01:23, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment by nominator This is original research and not usable on Wikipedia. Why is it that every free-energy inventor can dream up great inventions that overturn all of physics, but refuses to buy a decent set of meters? --Wtshymanski (talk) 14:42, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • I don't think you know anything about the history of physics. This episode is very reminiscent of the invention of the electric motor, following Faraday's demonstration of mechanical motion derived from permanent magnets and electric currents. The actual theory of how this works by Maxwell did not appear for another 37 years after the first motor and 46 years after the demonstration of the phenomenon. And they had the advantage of not having their minds polluted by pathological skepticism. PS, I'm a physicist. Antimatter33 (talk) 15:31, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I agree with the nominator that the last unsigned 'keep' nomination is based on original research and should be ignored. Whether or not the thing works is irrelevant to deciding if the article should be kept or not, unless it's verifiable. The decision should be based on notability, not personal opinion on the presence or absence of scientific merit. 109a152a8a146 (talk) 15:51, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - that way, when the truth about all this is revealed, and it becomes clear that an article on a world-changing event was censored away by pathological skeptic fiat, the blatant editorial bias of Wikipedia and their complete lack of historical perspective will be revealed in all their tawdry shame. Antimatter33 (talk) 15:25, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Can we all just calm down a little, stop accusing each other of ignorance/bias/delusion/closed-mindedness and stick to the sources? It's just an article. 109a152a8a146 (talk) 16:02, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • (strong) Keep I don't even know why we're discussing this: everybody here knows that it's not our job to judge if the device is a scientific/engineering breakthrough or just a scam. All we need to consider is notability and (mainstream) media coverage. Both is clearly given. Which should be the end of the discussion, no? -- Minvogt (talk) 16:30, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I should perhaps add: the style of the article is far from perfect; I agree with previous editors that it sounds too much like promotional material or a "free energy" blog, but deletion cannot be the solution to that problem. -- Minvogt (talk) 16:53, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I'm just a simple mechanical engineer who knows how to conduct an energy balance on such a system, and I find something very interesting is being produced by this e-cat which is excess heat beyond any conventional process and at the same time does not seem to produce nuclear reaction products we would expect. Unless evidence of the Oct 8, 2011 experiment posted online was faked by Ny-Tenik I have to say the net energy out was more than enough to overwhelm objections of those who wanted better instrumentation and such. Dr Rossi is not acting like a scammer/hoaxer and is surrounded by competent physicists from a respected university. So in conclusion I believe it is not pathological science except in the minds of those who are disturbed by something very new and interesting. We need more time and to let events develop. In a few more months we will be better able to judge this more thoroughly. Thank you. Zedshort (talk) 17:17, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(strong) Delete This is the definition of free energy, which is always a scam. The proposed method would rewrite more physics than the CERN FTL discovery, and this is not being handled in any way, shape or form like that is. It's a classic "secretive black box that does X" and this article is probably mostly marketing for it put up by individuals involved in said scam. Merge this to Cold Fusion, because that's exactly what the claim is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.87.113.157 (talk) 17:27, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Free meaning cheap, there is no claim of free energy with this. Why don't you try reading about it before you condemn it.Ldussan (talk) 19:12, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You are wrong in setting this equal to perpetuum mobile. There are a number of explaining theories, that do in fact not re-write physics. Please read before you judge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.180.53.18 (talk) 20:07, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This is WORSE than perpetual motion because those at least are just supposed to produce kinetics. This is a tabletop reaction that has an energy density several times that of nuclear reactors that itself is "probably nuclear" according to Rossi, but requires no external cooling and generates no radiation. Wikipedia should not be used to promote scams to the scientifically illiterate. If the article wants to be made balanced and mostly about the COVERAGE, that's a different story. There is no "there there" as far as the science goes, period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.87.113.157 (talk) 15:12, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • (strong) Keep I agree with Minvogt that "it's not our job to judge if the device is a scientific/engineering breakthrough or just a scam". As notability and serious media coverage cannot be denied, there is absolutely no reason to delete this article. Croquant (talk) 19:08, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't that an argument for having an article on Rossi, rather than on his magic teapot? AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:24, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See his page. PhGustaf (talk) 19:45, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I hadn't seen that. It certainly seems to be 'his', given that much of it is sourced to him. Rather contrary to what has been written about him in WP:RS, I'd have thought - though at least it notes his murky past. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:07, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • (strong) Keep What interest should the inventor Rossi have in a scam? Surely he is not good at providing confidence and he does not seem to be a good businessman, but that does not make it a scam. The article itself states that e-cat is work in progress, and logically proof of such a invention would be hard to provide. Wait until this topic matures and provides proof or scam become emergent.
Read WP:CRYSTALBALL - wait for the sources, then write the article... AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:13, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep Your reasoning would be right, if that _actually_ would be scam. I am trying to find such a prove since half a year. So far there is no prove. This whole thing is also of such an importance for the future of mankind, that LENR developments should be quite well regarded in wikipedia. The number of signs there is something behind that was really adding up in the last years, even if E-Cat will finally not prove to be the thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.180.53.18 (talk) 20:04, 31 October 2011 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
Your opinions on the validity of the E-Cat are irrelevant - we base articles on published reliable sources, and deletion discussions are based around whether such articles conform to Wikipedia standards. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:13, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia actually has an entry about the heads of the Iraqi Information Ministers. This one has zero cited sources besides that one about the dissolution of that ministry. So, to a independent observer it much looks as if the source for those persons listed might have been the Information Ministry itself. Given this, I still would not opt for deletion of that entry, mind you. 84.180.53.18 (talk) 20:55, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep. Empirical evidence for the validity of the ecat claims is abundant, while theoretical explanations conflict dramatically with the established scientific paradigm. If the article is rejected it implies that the only valid scientific knowledge must be consistent with generally accepted theories, which rules out any number of scientifically interesting areas such as the possibility of faster than light neutrinos, and at various points in history, plate tectonics, super conductivity and other areas which at the time of their discovery outstripped the then current theoretical models. 20:05, 31 October 2011 (UTC)Thomas Baccei — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.161.192.84 (talk) This template must be substituted.
I'd disagree with your assertions regarding 'empirical evidence', but that is beside the point. Wikipedia is not a forum for breaking news about untested scientific claims (and Rossi is not actually making any, in any recognised peer-reviewed journal or other meaningful source). If and when the science is recognised, we can write about it. If you want speculative journalism, you can find plenty elsewhere. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:23, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Again, E-Cat is a product, not just research. Wikipedia has entries about products that are about to be released. Which is just the case here, selling started according to AR. What is missing at this point is a number installed customers that are willing to report. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.180.53.18 (talk) 20:45, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Rossi is not a reliable source for anything but his own opinions - and the "number installed customers that are willing to report" is apparently zero - or do you have a source to the contrary? Again, I point out that this is a discussion about the article with regard to Wikipedia policy, not a general debate about the E-Cat itself. Please stay on topic, and keep your speculation to yourself. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:18, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As many editors have already pointed out, the notion that the claims are "not recognised science" is not a justification for deletion. Andy stop pushing this ridiculous misconception of wikipedia policy. --POVbrigand (talk) 21:38, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please point out where I made that assertion? I was replying to claims that 'E-Cat is a product' - for which we have no source. And I don't need lessons on Wikipedia policy from someone who thinks that unsourced speculation about Rossi's recreational activities is valid article material [3], or that we should discuss the suitability of the teapot E-Cat as a means to make tea (yes, really - see: Talk:Energy_Catalyzer/Archive_5#Cup_of_tea) in the article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:27, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Is there another mode of discussion that you are capable of other than ridicule ? You use teapot all over the place. It was my intent to improve the article by giving it a little more background with the "cup of tea" phrase, and how that phrase has been used in relation with cold fusion. --POVbrigand (talk) 22:43, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You wrote: "If and when the science is recognised, we can write about it." I read that as: "As long as it is not recognised science we don't need the article". --POVbrigand (talk) 22:50, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Filling articles with off-topic speculative crap does not constitute an 'improvement'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:48, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You are really showcasing your civility once more --POVbrigand (talk) 22:50, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep/Speedy Keep -- And why did somebody think they could get away with a simple PROD? If you read the talk page, this has been a very contentious article, so I would argue that the deletion request is being made strictly on the ground of being disruptive to the article and certainly not being cooperative. It clearly has multiple sources in terms of basic notability. That the detailed explanation of this concept may be very thin on those sources is true, but this is not the appropriate forum to be discussing which sources may be reliable or not other than to discuss basic notability and its qualifications for being included on Wikipedia. It has received coverage on CNN, Forbes, and other "mainstream" news media outlets to at least confirm notability of the concept as deserving to be discussed on Wikipedia. It may be a scam, but then again scams certainly are worthy of being written about on Wikipedia as well. This article deserves some attention by some admins as there has been situations of WP:OWN, and edit warring on a massive scale where some editors simply can't get anything contributed at all. The original rationale for deletion was simply boneheaded at least for why this article should be deleted and the rest of the article issues can certainly be dealt with elsewhere. At least use reasonable grounds for why it should be deleted other than "it is a scam". --Robert Horning (talk) 22:19, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep has plenty of coverage in magazines and web sites, so even if it is a fake it is still notable. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:28, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep There needs to be a neutral Wikipedia entry on this device available for people who become freshly acquainted with it through the increasing news coverage it is getting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ewoudenberg (talk • contribs) 22:34, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep Whether or not this is a scam (and personally, I think it's likely to be one) it's interesting and potentially important. And there are plenty of current journalistic sources including the Forbes online magazine article here:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2011/10/30/believing-in-cold-fusion-and-the-e-cat/2/ -- perhaps someone could add that? Thousands and thousands of people have read about Rossi and the E-cat. It needs to be available via Wikipedia.Maryyugo (talk) 01:38, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment This discussion is on the verge of descending into a mud-slinging match between two increasingly entrenched camps. Please try to limit the discussion to the merits of the article (sources, notability of the subject, independent coverage...). Insisting on a personal opinion (e.g. that the subject is a scam/major breakthrough) is unlikely to be seen as a valid argument for deletion/retention, and is unhelpful as it will polarize the opinions further. Sources for both views are available and should both be considered if the result of this discussion is 'keep'. 109a152a8a146 (talk) 23:40, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The article appears to be about a claim for inventing a specific device that is claimed to produce excessive amounts of energy from partially undisclosed ingredients for demonstrably short amounts of time (hours). Although as a graduate physicist I don't believe (warning: original research) that claimed process (reacting nickel with hydrogen to produce copper) can take place exothermically, i.e. to produce heat (it in fact can take place endothermically, as copper-63 has lower binding energy than nickel-62), I know plenty of other processes that can produce heat in said quantity and volume for said amount of time (like highly unstable isotopes of certain elements), which would explain most of the weirdness observed in the experiment, as well as inventor's ban on radiation measurement equipment. Yes, i believe it is a scam. Nevertheless, it is notable enough to be mentioned as such in Wikipedia, with proper warnings about possible scientific controversies. See, for example, EmDrive. 79.179.42.190 (talk) 04:11, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep There has been very much independent commentary and even validation, including by a major, well-known entity in the U.S. that starts with an N (I can't disclose what I know, for confidentiality reasons). More validation is pending. I've posted a back-up copy of the page at http://peswiki.com/index.php/PowerPedia:Energy_Catalyzer Also, see our list of coverage (not comprehensive, but extensive), as we've chronicled it at http://peswiki.com/index.php/News:Rossi_Cold_Fusion -- Sterlingda (talk) 06:49, 1 November 2011 (UTC) (who was present at the Oct. 28, 2011 test here in Bologna)[reply]
Wikipedia articles are based on material from published reliable sources, not on unverifiable claims from clearly-partisan blog writers, particularly ones who give the impression of being here to spam links to a website that appears to make money from advertising. If you were at the Oct 28th test, publish the details in a valid source, and we can consider its relevence. As for 'N', we aren't interested in guessing games, and until we see details, are entirely entitled to treat this as something starting with 'B' and 'S'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:21, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sterlingda is reposting propaganda verbatim from Rossi's blog "journal." He's probably financially interested in promoting it and so should be ignored. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.87.113.157 (talk) 15:19, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep There has been media exposure in known journals and peripheral involvement by reputable scientists. Commercial sale reality or lack of it will become evident within months. Then if necessary the article can be cut or altered to function as an historic record. There are known attendences at Rossi's demonstrations by political, industrial and academic represenatives (for example at the Defkalion media launch and the October 6 demonstration) to make it a matter of minor historical interest should it be a fake. Star A Star (talk) 11:40, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move This is about a current event that is getting some mainstream press. If it's borne out to be a fake then it can be pushed as a footnote into LENR/Cold Fusion articles. While it's still up in the air I think there's plenty of notability about the story. It should be moved to a '2011 Rossi Cold Fusion claims' current event page. Jherico (talk) 17:16, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Bad faith nom. Ni-H cold fusion is not, pace the nominator, a field with "no science behind it" - it was extensively written up in the 1990s. The tests of the device have gained enough press coverage to meet WP:N and the sources meet RS. Might want to consider merging Andrea Rossi (entrepreneur) into Energy Catalyzer though. Also, the following reasoning is ridiculous:
If hydrogen atoms routinely diffused into nickel to create copper, every stainless frying pan would have disintegrated long ago.
Er, who cooks monatomic hydrogen in a frying pan? Miracle Pen (talk) 17:25, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The e-cat has recently got a lot of attention in the media because of all the progress that is being made by the inventor. It has gotten to the point where unless Rossi is flat out lying, which seems highly unlikely, then the Energy Catalyzer, based off the information we have, most likely works. The fact that somebody has marked this article for deletion now, seems based more on the information coming out now that indicates the E-cats success rather then it's failure. It seems more likely that the nominator marked this page for deletion because they have a personal vendetta against the investor and would like to see him fail, for whatever reason. It has nothing to do with it being a scam, as there is no proof of that yet. Even if the E-cat is a scam, then it is one of the most elaborate scams in history, that alone justifies it's Wikipedia page.
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