Talk:Greensboro massacre

Untitled

"Police officials said Johnson asked to carry a sidearm, a request they denied. Several people who survived the shootings said police had promised to protect them." [1]

"As all this happened, a police intelligence officer, Jerry "Rooster" Cooper, watched, and a police photographer snapped pictures." Looks like police were around

"Court proceedings revealed later that a man named Edward Dawson, a police informant who had infiltrated the Klan, was in the lead car of the caravan."

Deacons for Defense and Justice

Deacons for Defense and Justice are a kind of predecessor to the anti-Klan activism of the CWP. There should be a paragraph on self-defense traditions. DJ Silverfish 22:59, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Capitalization:

The incident is frequently refered to in caps in print media. The lower case page can act as a redirect. DJ Silverfish 22:45, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

ungrammatical assertions and sneaky POV

I've reverted two identical sneaky POV changes by 82.82.166.191 and 82.82.165.111

In both cases a sentence describing the attack was changed from:

The generally accepted version of events is that a combined contingent of Klansmen and members of the American Nazi Party attended the rally. Accounts vary as to whether they were set upon by the demonstrators or not, but they were armed, opened fire at the demonstrators, killing several immediately and wounding others, some fatally.
to:
The generally accepted version of events is that a combined contingent of Klansmen and members of the American Nazi Party attended the rally. Accounts vary as to whether they were set upon by the demonstrators or not, but they were armed, opened fire at the demonstrators in self-defense, killing several immediately and wounding others, some fatally.

The addition "in self-defense" doesn't make grammatical sense. It contradicts "accounts vary" clause and contradicts the generally accepted version of events. "Accounts vary" is the biggest POV concession possible to the Nazis given all the documentation. DJ Silverfish 18:41, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

The "general consensus" is that the Nazis were trapped and inferior in number. They were attacked while still in their cars and thus had to defend themselves. Aor

You mean they had their hubcaps kicked and responded by opening fire indiscrimately on a crowd of people.

Yes, well that may be, but they were hit with placards and were threatened, also they probably wouldn't have felt threatened enough to fire if the protesters hadn't been illegally carrying weapons, contrary to the terms of their Protest Permit.

You see this is wrong because if the protesters had killed 5 KKK members and the law had found in favour of them there would be no debate, but somehow because of the negative connotations associated with the KKK the KKK can't win if they try. Accept the jury found in favour of the Klan and were right, end of. Let me also say communists and particularly Chairman Mao have killed probably over a thousand times more people than the Ku Klux Klan and in half the time, so who's supporting killers?

82.3.77.241 17:36, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

It's ridiculous to assert that the KKK & Nazis were victims in any conceivable way. Please read the GT&RC report.

66.57.14.174 01:51, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

The references on the page that the protestors were armed with firearms demand a link to some sort of actual proof. This was the Nazis' assertion at trial, but I have never heard any evidence that this was the case. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.167.226.118 (talk)

Caps

I've moved this back, I hope confrming to style. The article itself uses lower case internally. Rich Farmbrough 00:07, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

The Courts

There is an extensive legal legacy from this case. I'm parking some of the referenced cases here, until I can figure out how to integrate them into the main article.

• U.S. v Virgil L. GRIFFIN, Edward Woodrow Dawson, David Wayne Matthews, Roland Wayne

Wood, Jerry Paul Smith, Jack Wilson Fowler, Jr., Roy C. Toney, Coleman B. Pridmore, and Raeford Milano Caudle. 585 F.Supp. 1439. D.C.N.C.,1983. Oct 06, 1983. Defendants were indicted under state program and activities provision of statute governing federally protected activities. Defendants moved to dismiss indictment. Motion denied.

• In re Greensboro News Co., 727 F.2d 1320, (4th Cir.1984). Jan 19, 1984 (Approx. 8 pages)

• In re Russell, 726 F.2d 1007, C.A.4,1984. Feb 08, 1984

• Waller v. Butkovich. 584 F.Supp. 909. D.C.N.C.,1984. Apr 17, 1984 (Approx. 48 pages) Participants in anti-Ku Klux Klan rally brought action charging city, state, and federal government officials and agencies with complicity in attack by members of Ku Klux Klan and American Nazi Party against the rally participants and in ensuing cover-up of alleged official involvement in the attack. The District Court, Merhige, J., held that: (1) motions to dismiss on grounds of sovereign immunity, lack of personal jurisdiction, and prosecutorial immunity would be granted in part and denied in part; (2) with few exceptions, second amended complaint stated with sufficient specificity facts on which allegations were based; (3) allegation that conspiracy was animated by plaintiffs' status as labor organizers did not fulfill "discriminatory animus" requirement of section 1985(3) cause of action; (4) allegation that conspiracy was animated against advocates of equal rights for black people satisfied the discriminatory animus requirement; (5) federal defendants were subject to suit under section 1985(3) and section 1986; (6) complaint stated cause of action for conspiracy and cover-up under section 1983 and section 1985(3); (7) complaint stated cause of action against city police, but not against federal law enforcement officials, for failure to protect; (8) complaint failed to allege section 1981 cause of action; (9) claims relating to deficient supervisory practices would not be dismissed; and (10) motions of pro se defendants for appointment of counsel would be denied. Order accordingly.

• U.S. v. Byrd, 163 F.3d 599 (Table), C.A.4 (N.C.),1998. Sep 01, 1998 (Approx. 1 page)

DJ Silverfish 01:35, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

This is just my opinion, but to keep any legal history from turning into a sort of pity-party for the CWP in this case, a large emphasis must be placed on the fact that in the criminal trial of the Klan members, many CWP members either were extremely uncooperative with the prosecutors and the court, while some even entirely refused to testify; there is a large popular conception of justice gone awry, which is partly true, but it must be tinged somewhat by this major fact. See the Greensboro Truth & Reconciliation Commission's report for more (including the Concurring Opinion). Cdtew (talk) 01:09, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Further Reading Dispute

I've been trying to add a link to the documentary Greensboro's Child, but it's been erased three times. First as "looks like spam", then "it's spam", then "It's a pay site. It's spam". This is a documentary about 11/3/79. It was independently produced from 1996 to 2002 by a resident of Greensboro, NC. The only "pay" aspect of the site is a link to paypal if the visitor wants to obtain a copy of the documentary.

This is not spam.

Also, the same user that keeps deleting this addition, Wahkeenah, actually deleted a correction I made to a broken link in the Anniversary news reports section.

• If you have to pay to get it, IT'S SPAM. Wahkeenah 06:13, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
• It's also obviously SELF-PROMOTION, as is obvious from your user ID. It's forbidden by wiki policy ON BOTH COUNTS, and it's gone. Wahkeenah 06:17, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
• I fixed the one legitimate correction you had made. Wahkeenah 06:45, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I asked an Admin about your external link, and this is what she said... Wahkeenah 01:22, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

• Hmmm. Tough call. On the one hand, the film does seem to have won a couple of festival awards, but they appear to me to be pretty minor. I am disturbed by the fact that 1) the link is to a blog, as I don't feel those are usually appropriate unless it's a very well-known one, and 2) it does have that Paypal link at the bottom, which makes it lean toward the commercial end of the spectrum. I personally believe you're justified in removing the link. Having said that, remember that an admin's word is not law. Have you considered asking for some possibly consensus-building discussion at WP:RfC, or at WP:SPAM? I'd rather see a little more discussion than have you and User:Spcoon get into an edit war. Joyous | Talk 01:09, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

We can retain the documentary as a 'further reading' reference if there is a legitimate concern about the link being purely commercial. If the link provides information of a descriptive nature that adds value to the article, then I would say the link should stay. There are other examples of links to book reviews, or to commerical sites which are the subkect of articles. the fact that a site has a dual use should not be automatic grounds for dismissal and I would rather err on the side of inclusiveness. Wahkeenah concern with "SPAM" seems somewhat over stated. DJ Silverfish 21:14, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate the perspective, DJ. So where do we go from here? I don't want to be accused of continuing to post the link in an effort to get over on anyone. Spcoon 04:06, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

The entry needs more complete production information and possibly a link to a third party site, like http://imdb.com. Also, the entry could be butressed with any facts that could create a link or other citation. If we could attribute the production to a company, that would help. If a subject or interviewee in the documentary has a separate Wikipedia entry, it should be noted. DJ Silverfish 19:47, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

The video links from the documentary are definitely worth including on this page. So I've added them with the citation of the documentary for context. The 7:55 minutes of raw footage is particularly great.

Raw footage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlSb_OmQuc8 Interviews: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWWrlDu6KWw DJ Silverfish 20:03, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Spcoon 12:43, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

News footage on other sites

Editors have been de-linking external links to the footage of the Greensboro massacre using specious arguments. I believe that the links should remain:

There is nothing in the guidelines to prohibit the linkage to external video material where the lisencing of the material so linked is unclear. Such links are not covered by the WP:EL as to be avoided where the material linked to is reliable and valuable to the understanding of the subject. The "relable sources" objection raised by the editor seems very odd. Here the news footage is a valuable historic document, which is instrumental to understanding the events described in the article.

DJ Silverfish 06:57, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Massacre?

Does this really qualify for being called a 'massacre', by that standard we could put the Battle of Ventersdorp as a massacre. I think the 1979 Greensboro Armed Confrontation or something along those lines would be more appropriate. When most people think of a 'massacre' they think of the holocaust and thousands dying, not five people being killed in a shoot- out which, judging by video footage, lasted all of 3 minutes?

82.3.77.241 17:39, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Under wikipedia's standards a massacre is defined as 'mass killing', which this indisputably is not, and where the victims have no reasonable form of defense, they had guns and could have returned fire.

82.3.77.241 17:44, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

"The Greensboro Massacre" is the generally accepted name for this event, please see the numerous external references on the page.

66.57.14.174 01:40, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Not if you talk about it in Greensboro. I have never heard the 'Greensboro Massacre'- It's known as the "1979 Klan-Nazi Shootings" if you lived here, you wold not hear massacre- you would hear shooting. big difference, and nobody calls here calls it a massacre.Cptjeff 21:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I lived in Greensboro during this time, and was less than a mile from the shootings when they occurred, there was no massacre! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.246.77.228 (talk) 17:41, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Only the Communists call it a massacre, I was there, it was called the Nazi-Klan Shootout until the Communists wanted their martyrs. This whole entry is a lie. I officially challenge its accuracy and objectivity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.108.222.131 (talk) 16:08, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I have always heard it referred to as the Nazi-Klan shootout. I'd never heard the term "Greensboro Massacre" before I saw it in Wikipedia. Teekno (talk) 21:28, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the entry of the title is a lie, why doesn't someone change it to the correct, "1979 Greensboro Nazi-Klan Shootout". Why are we being forced to accept this revisionist history? I was there, you don't call the Oklahoma City Bombings a Massacre even though this would be a true massacre, so why accept it here? Because the communists want their martyrs? This is a illegitimate title for this article, please change it now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.109.141.205 (talk) 16:21, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

The title of this entry clearly represents a propagandistic slant. The fact that the term "Greensboro Massacre" is widespread and easy to find does not make it any less biased. It is not a massacre to kill in self-defense, and according to the court's findings it was self-defense. True, the Klan's and NSPA's response was more effective than the attack, but that doesn't make the attackers innocent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.42.0.70 (talk) 19:24, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Police Role

Perhaps the police were, and quite rightfully, not in an exceptionally good mood with the protesters because they had illegally carried firearms and therefore didn't appear to rely on police support so perhaps the police decided it wasn't worth protecting people who felt that they could adequately protect themselves.

Maybe there should be further confirmation of whether or not the KKK hierachy actually organised the resistance and eventually the shootings or whether it was rouge Klansmen, if we can find some substantial evidence saying that the Grand Dragon or whoever had said go to Greensboro and shoot them then I'll agree it was the Klan but as far as I can see it was members of the American Nazi Party and Ku Klux Klan who did this but were not acting under Klan orders.

We need to be very clear in this article because people will read the words Ku Klux Klan and blame them when in fact the organisation may not be at fault but a few rogue members.

82.14.70.99 23:12, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

If you read the report of The Greensboro Truth and Reconciliation Commission, you'll see that Klan leader Virgil Griffin was involved. Obviously it's difficult to confirm these things 100%, as terrorist organizations like the KKK don't publish minutes of their meeting.

66.57.14.174 01:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

• There are multiple Ku Klux Klan organizations, so any Klan organization can be considered "the Ku Klux Klan". --Metropolitan90 18:38, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I have deleted the following:

The Klansman and Nazis involved were not from Greensboro. They had come in response to a challenge from the march organizers. Reports in the Greensboro News and Record indicated the police were not at the scene because the march organizers gave them an incorrect address on their parade permit. However, it is now known that the Klan caravan was organized by a man later found to be a police informant, using the parade permit to guide the caravan to the correct location and in radio contact with the police while the caravan was forming and proceeding to the site. Furthermore, police had been on the scene, but had been dismissed "for lunch," shortly before the attack.

It seems to duplicate much of the material covered in the previous passage, with some variation, but without citation. If this information can be confirmed it should be woven in with the existing passage, not tacked on the end.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:32, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Self- defence

I'm not entirely sure about U.S. law relating to this but in Britain you aren't covered for self defense if you put yourself in a position where you hurt someone, there's a difference between leaving your home and driving to a rally and shooting someone and being at home, asleep and being robbed and then shooting someone, can someone help me out?

82.14.70.99 23:14, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Well if the Klan/Nazis fired first and weren't defending themselves, then why were they acquitted?

And secondly, looking at the video, it appears that the Communist protesters attacked the Klan/Nazis' cars using 2x4s and other assorted weapons. That is aggravated assault, and under castle doctrine justifies homicide in self-defense. Why are the Klan/Nazis portrayed as the guilty party?

Anon 03:05, 26 February 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.125.201.117 (talk)

I agree. I consider myself unbiased (have no love for racists) but the footage on LiveLeak clearly shows a gang attacking a car. It starts by kicking the car, then they surround the car, carrying wooden poles and they start beating the occupants. The "KKK/Nazi's" take a defensive position between cars, while dodging bullets from the dispersed protestors (who were shouting "death to the Klan"), shooting back. Clearly self defence against a lynchmob. The "Klan/Nazi's" were merelydriving past until they were attacked by a group of African Americans carrying clubs and 2x4's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.168.143.188 (talk) 13:46, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

"Birth of a Nation" Film

For clarification, I think there is a bit of confusion about the "Birth of a Nation" film shown in China Grove. Is this the famous 1915 D.W. Griffith "Birth of a Nation" (which, while a politically incorrect sentimental piece, is not a film of Ku Klux Klan propaganda; on the contrary it is considered one of the most important films ever made because of its scale and technical accomplishment), OR is this a home-made propaganda film made by the North Carolina Ku Klux Klan sometime between their resurgence in the late-1950's and the time of this incident?

I've worked with this material somewhat extensively, but more with the legal side than anything else. Any help clarifying would be useful. Cdtew (talk) 01:09, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Crime?

Why is this in category "Ku Klux Klan crimes" it was a self-defense situation, nobody was convicted of any wrong-doing, and it was clearly citizens (albeit citizens with extreme views) defending themselves against other extremists who wanted to deny them their ability to free assembly and free speech. Nothing at Greensboro was criminal except the assault and attempted murder perpetrated by the armed communists.