Talk:Aluminium

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Article changed over to new WikiProject Elements format by maveric149

Aluminum vs. Aluminium

Moved to Talk:Aluminium/Spelling#Aluminum_vs._Aluminium

Use of the word experience

In one paragraph in the recycling section the word "experience" is used as follows: "In Europe aluminium experiences high rates of recycling"

As far as I know the word "experience" denotes gaining of knowledge or wisdom as a result of some event or activity.

I suggest the word should be avoided when describing properties of aluminium as metal is incapable of any mental acuity.

Suggested rewrite: "Aluminium recycling rates are high in Europe..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arvidcarlander (talk • contribs) 21:36, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, my insurance company, The Hartford, found that my roof had experienced significant deterioration last year, even though it doesn't have a brain. Neither my roof nor my insurance company, for that matter. Perhaps you should consult a good dictionary of English? SBHarris 20:10, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

False!: Aluminum can be toxic

In the introduction, article states that plants and animals are generally tolerant of aluminum, reference 5. This is not generally true and there should be reference made to later sections of the article on affects in plants and animals here. In soils and water, aluminum takes on different complex ionic forms depending on pH and other elements present. Al3+ and several other forms are toxic to plants and animals including humans. Al toxicity is a common problem in soil and waters that have been acidified due to pollution. See: Molecular aspects of aluminum toxicity, Alfred Haug, Charles E. Foy, Critical Reviews in Plant Sciences, Vol. 1, Iss. 4, 1984

The introduction to the article covers the general case. I am sure that all sorts of things can go wrong with a variety of elements at very high and at very low pH's This misunderstanding is the reason that we are trying to educate people on basic chemistry.. In any case, please provide a Digital object identifier for your citation, or a more recent citation (that one is pretty dated). Thanks for the suggestion. --Smokefoot (talk) 20:15, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

So you dont think that the role of aluminum in acid lakes is worth recognizing? Thousands of lakes in large geographic regions are affected by aluminum toxicity. Many of these have no or very reduced biota living in them. I would think that this would be worth of mention somewhere in the article. Avram Primack (talk) 14:03, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 6 December 2011

First problem.... the article reads like a bad freshman college or high school level composition. There are many hanging and unnecessary clauses that detract from its readability. Someone should turn it into the queens english.

Second problem.... the description of how aluminum is extracted from ore and reduced to pure metal is convoluted, confusing, and not comprehensible. I dont think it even includes the major processes, or at least not so that I can understand what they are.

Third problem.... the health section ignores the role of aluminum in killing fish and invertebrates in lakes affected by acid precipitation. Acid precipitation mobilizes aluminium from the soils and brings it to ponds where it plates out on exposed mucus membranes, suffocating any animal unfortunate enough to be in the pond at the time.

I would suggest the edits myself, but I dont have the time right now to do the research necessary to construct the material. I am a bit perplexed by the new system too...

Dr. Avram Primack

Avram Primack (talk) 13:59, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

This template is actually for requesting specific changes to the article. However you have the ability to edit it yourself, and its not going anywhere, so perhaps when you have some spare time you can be bold and have a crack at it--Jac16888 ^Talk 14:12, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

My apologies... my system sent me through the approval process because I was not logged in... here is an annotated and detailed example of what I am talking about...

This statement is repeated several times in the article...since it is not about production or aluminum, and it is the first sentence in the section which should refer to what the section is about, not some other topic, it should be deleted.... "Although aluminium is the most abundant metallic element in the Earth's crust, it is never found in free, metallic form (with above mentioned exceptions)."

The only ore mentioned in the article is bauxite. What are the other ones? It is not necessary to repeat this statement at every possible opportunity. Better title for the image might be :

The red=brown colour in this example of bauxite is due to iron minerals. "Bauxite, a major aluminium ore. The red-brown colour is due to the presence of iron minerals."

Paragraph should start with a topic sentence. If this is the topic then the paragraph should be about it. This one is not what the paragraph is about. Second sentence is long, convoluted, and announces information not yet introduced.... "Aluminium forms strong chemical bonds with oxygen. Compared to most other metals, it is difficult to extract from ore, such as bauxite, due to the energy required to reduce aluminium oxide (Al2O3). "

Better would be .... Compared to other metals, aluminium is difficult to extract because it forms strong bonds with oxygen.

The order of clauses in the next sentence makes it difficult to understand... "For example, direct reduction with carbon, as is used to produce iron, is not chemically possible, since aluminium is a stronger reducing agent than carbon. "

Better would be.... Aluminium is a stronger reducing agent than carbon, so direct reduction with carbon, which is used in iron production, is not possible.

The next three sentences appear to be an aside, and should be moved to a new paragraph. They interrupt the flow of the paragraph and confuse the reader....

"There is an indirect carbothermic reduction possible by using carbon and Al2O3, which forms an intermediate Al4C3 and this can further yield aluminium metal at a temperature of 1900–2000°C. This process is still under development. This process costs less energy and yields less CO2 than the Hall-Héroult process, the major industrial process for aluminium extraction.[17] "

Better as.... Indirect carbothermic reduction is possible using carbon and Al2O3 which forms an intermediate Al4C3 and aluminium metal by reduction at 1900–2000°C. This process costs less energy and yields less CO2 than the Hall-Héroult process, the major industrial process for aluminium extraction.[17] This process is still under development.

The next two sentences are really one sentence. Therefore at the start of a sentence often indicates that the previous sentence is badly formed. Also, must implies there are no other options when it really intends to suggest that it is not economically efficient for commercial extraction....

"Aluminium oxide has a melting point of about 2,000 °C (3,600 °F). Therefore, it must be extracted by electrolysis. "

Better as.... Because aluminium has a melting point of about 2,000 °C (3,600 °F)it is commercially extracted by electrolysis.

The next sentence begins with an unnecessary hanging clause. Just mention the process rather than obfuscate. The second sentence is really part of the first. Its only function is to make the paragraph longer. The word around is not specific in the way intended. Around means near. The real intention is between. 920 is around 950, not between 950 and 980. "In this process, the aluminium oxide is dissolved in molten cryolite with calcium fluoride and then reduced to the pure metal. The operational temperature of the reduction cells is around 950 to 980 °C (1,740 to 1,800 °F)."

Better as ... In electrolysis, aluminium oxide is dissolved in molten cryolite with calcium fluoride and then reduced to the pure metal at a temperature between 950 to 980 °C (1,740 to 1,800 °F).

The next two sentences are are cross constructed. "Cryolite is found as a mineral in Greenland, but in industrial use it has been replaced by a synthetic substance. Cryolite is a chemical compound of aluminium and sodium fluorides: (Na3AlF6)."

Better as... Cryolite is a chemical compound of aluminium and sodium fluorides: (Na3AlF6) found naturally in Greenland. Synthetic cryolite is used in industry.

The last sentence appears irrelevant to production of aluminum, or at least incomplete descriptions of some poorly identified need of the section. Looks like something a previous editor did not have the gumption to delete.

" The aluminium oxide (a white powder) is obtained by refining bauxite in the Bayer process of Karl Bayer. (Previously, the Deville process was the predominant refining technology.)"

The start of the next paragraph is completely confusing. The first sentence appears to be an attempt at reporting the history of aluminum extraction. If it is, then it is in the wrong place and should appear at the top of the section with a full paragraph. The second sentence transfers into non sequitors and trivialities. I cant make any suggestions for this because I don't know what it is trying to be about.....

"The electrolytic process replaced the Wöhler process, which involved the reduction of anhydrous aluminium chloride with potassium. Both of the electrodes used in the electrolysis of aluminium oxide are carbon. Once the refined alumina is dissolved in the electrolyte, its ions are free to move around. "

So, final form of the paragraph as it was written might be....

Compared to other metals, aluminium is difficult to extract because it forms strong bonds with oxygen. Because aluminium has a melting point of about 2,000 °C (3,600 °F)it is commercially extracted by electrolysis. In electrolysis, aluminium oxide is dissolved in molten cryolite with calcium fluoride and then reduced to the pure metal at a temperature between 950 to 980 °C (1,740 to 1,800 °F). Cryolite is a chemical compound of aluminium and sodium fluorides: (Na3AlF6) found naturally in Greenland. Synthetic cryolite is used in industry. Indirect carbothermic reduction is possible using carbon and Al2O3 which forms an intermediate Al4C3 and aluminium metal by reduction at 1900–2000°C. This process costs less energy and yields less CO2 than the Hall-Héroult process, the major industrial process for aluminium extraction.[17] This process is still under development.

Still not clear what the Halle Heroult process is because the section only mentions it as an aside, rather than identifying what it is. I am substituting my paragraph for the previous paragraph. I don't think the description of production is complete yet. It still needs a historical evolution of the processes used, and a better edit of what comes after this paragraph. Avram Primack (talk) 15:25, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Possible New Template

Hello, would the following proposed template be helpful if it were added to Chemistry-related article talk pages? —C. Raleigh (talk) 02:05, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

looks great to me. Probably only really necessary for aluminium, caesium, and sulfur, but it doesn't hurt to put it on all element and related (groups, periods, etc.) talk pages. StringTheory¹¹ 03:10, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

(ec)Most people don't look at the talk page before editing (including myself :-D), thus such notice should appear when clicking the edit button, with some adjustments in the text (e.g., this article is written in US spelling :). Materialscientist (talk) 03:13, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Example [1]. Materialscientist (talk) 03:30, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Done. I will add a parameter for American English later if necessary. Don’t international organizations like the IUPAC usually prefer Oxford spelling though? The International Labour Organization comes to mind. —C. Raleigh (talk) 03:38, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

And done. Template:IUPAC spelling is ready for transclusion and has support for American English via setting the appropriate parameter. —C. Raleigh (talk) 06:08, 28 December 2011 (UTC)