Talk:Homeopathy

To Do List

add explanation of healing crisis in the context of homeopathy, and how this relates to how homeopathy is claimed to work, including both the homeopathic explanation, and the conventional medical critique. add a broad-brush description of the work of Constantine Hering and James Tyler Kent and how it differs from Hahnemann, keeping the depth of coverage appropriate for a summary article. Kent is noted for "the well-known Kent repertory, on which virtually all modern practise of homeopathy is based" homeopathic hospitals in the late 18th and early 19th centuries were attended by the rich and powerful as the best locations where one could get better. They were relatively clean and calm institutions that had a better cure rate than many of the mainstream clinics of the day. Of course, this was due to the fact that most mainstream hospitals of the day were filthy places where one was more likely to die of an infection rather than be cured. In this, homeopaths of that era were closer to the do no harm dictum of the Hipocratic Oath than many of their contemporaries and, indeed, many practices perfected in homeopathic hospitals are still employed today as best practices for palliative care. The fact that they didn't use the "heroic" measures in common use, such as bloodletting, powerful drugs like arsenic, strychnine, mercury, belladonna, etc. meant that more patients survived, since these drugs often caused more deaths. In many cases doing what amounted to nothing, i.e. placebo homeopathic treatment, was better than doing something, i.e. overkill with poisons, thus letting the body's own recuperative powers do the healing, which for many ordinary ailments is just fine.

Citations

I noticed that the article has been significantly changed several times without there being any real changes made to the citations. The changes to the article are such that it is highly unlikely that one source could have both sets of information. I do not have access to the books cited so I cannot check to see what they actually see. Does anyone have access to even some of these books so we could establish the truth of what they are saying? Blackrainbow10 (talk) 23:16, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Hmm... could you be specific about which sources you think may be misrepresented? Was there a particular change which altered the meaning of a phrase significantly without changing its source? (If so, you're right that's usually cause for concern!) Some (even many) of the books may be available on google books, or you could request a specific source at WP:LIB. Thanks!   — Jess· Δ♥ 00:22, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

"Unethical for health practitioners to treat patients using homeopathy....."

That statement is made by the National Health and Medical Research Council of Australia according to a report in today's issue of the Sydney Morning Herald. It is an interesting read. Perhaps some of it should be used in this article? Moriori (talk) 22:12, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Better re-read. The writer (Julia Medew of The Age) says "draft public statement seen by The Age", not "that statement is made". It's a substantive difference. We should wait until there's something on the record to discuss rather than getting wrapped up in rumours. We should also watch for the Freckleton piece in Journal of Law and Medicine this week. LeadSongDog come howl! 22:53, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Rumours? Good heavens. I can amend my opening paragraph to read "That quote comes from a draft statement prepared by the National Health and Medical Research Council of Australia according to.....". Moriori (talk) 23:32, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, a little better than rumour, but not much ;-) There's a reason that people make drafts: to find and fix errors before publication. Because wp:NOTNEWS and wp:NODEADLINE, we can wait for them to actually decide what they intend to say. Cheers. LeadSongDog come howl! 03:43, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Sys. Review

A 2010 systematic review, "Placebo effect sizes in homeopathic compared to conventional drugs – a systematic review of randomised controlled trials", might be a useful addition to the meta-analyses section. It concludes that placebo effects in RCTs on classical homeopathy do not appear to be larger than placebo effects in conventional medicine. ← Randomnonsense ^talk 19:38, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

It's published in the "journal" Homeopathy, so it likely isn't useful for anything other than a laugh.JoelWhy (talk) 19:49, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm aware it's a fringe journal, but I think it's useful in that it shows homepathy's own advocates concluding that one pet theory of theirs is false, namely that homeopathy better harnesses the placebo effect than conventional medicine. ← Randomnonsense ^talk 20:29, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Ahh, gotcha. Still, it may be a dangerous precedent to set. If we accept an article from a fringe journal to criticize this pseudoscience, true believers will argue 'what's good for the goose is good for the gander.' Still, if we included it simply to point out (as you stated) that one of their own disputes this claim, it may work -- not as evidence that the science doesn't support the claim, but as evidence that the pseudoscience doesn't support the pseudoscientific claim. Ok, that must be the strangest sentence I typed in quite some time!JoelWhy (talk) 20:32, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that occurs to me too. A response might be that sources in opposition to mainstream academic consensus aren't due weight, whereas a source that reports something novel and in tune with the consensus and that isn't presented as authoritative might be due weight. ← Randomnonsense ^talk 21:09, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

For sure - a non-reliable source is a non-reliable source - we can't use it simply because it happens to follow mainstream science more closely. However, documents such as this may be used as a reliable source for their own existence - this is explained in the WP:SELFSOURCE guideline: "Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves". Which means that we could write "Some homeopathists <ref yadda yadda> believe that classical homeopathy produces a placebo effect no larger than conventional medicine." - and cite this document as proof that at least one homeopathist takes that view. What we can't do is to write "Classical homeopathy produces a placebo effect no larger than conventional medicine.<ref yadda yadda>" with that article as the supporting reference because that would be a statement of scientific fact from a source that is (at best) unreliable. Fortunately, we already have references for the latter statement - so we don't need to rely on a paper from such a dubious source. SteveBaker (talk) 16:56, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Which refs? I only suggested this because I didn't see anything addressing the relative strength of placebo in the article. I can see plenty of refs saying homeopathy is no better than placebo, but that isn't quite the same. ← Randomnonsense ^talk 18:48, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 17 March 2012

I suggest you remove the sentence "Each dilution followed by succussion is assumed to increase the effectiveness." Reasons: 1. no references 2. the sentence uses the term assumed. This begs the question "assumed by whom?" There is no study data suggesting that homeopaths or the homeopathic consumer assumes that the more times a "remedy" is diluted and succussed that there is an increase in effectiveness. 70.54.77.48 (talk) 16:58, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Aside from, y'know, the citation provided in the very next sentence.[1] Emphasis mine:

The dilutions advocated by Hahnemann and those used today often reduce the concentration of the initial substance to infinitesimal levels. Hahnemann himself understood that dilutions of the magnitude he used eliminated all of the original substance. He believed, however, that the healing power of the substance could be preserved and actually concentrated by the process of dynamization. Hahnemann believed that physical disruption of the solution or powder during the dilution process could release the spirit-like dynamic healing force contained within the substance. He believed that even after it has been completely removed from the solution by enormous dilution, the healing force remained. The dynamization could be induced by succussion of the solution between dilution steps or, in the case of a powder, by trituration in a mortar.

The entire method behind homeopathic remedies is to dilute the substance repeatedly to gain its "healing" properties while removing the "destructive" ones. It's an assumption made with no scientific reasoning. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:07, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the reply. I must argue however that the reference is very weak. The last I checked creighton.edu was not a peer reviewed journal. You could at least use the organon as a reference. If it is the organon you are quoting , then it would be more accurate to say: "According to Hahnemann, each dilution followed by succussion is assumed to increase the "medicinal power"." As I'm sure you know, the term "effectiveness" has very specific connotations as it is related to evidence based medicine. It is unwise to use the term in this context given the potential confusion with the term "effectiveness". I believe you are in correct when you say "The entire method behind homeopathic remedies is to dilute the substance repeatedly to gain its "healing" properties while removing the "destructive" ones." Properly prepared homeopathic substances involve both dilution and succussion. So why don't we change the line to: "According to Hahnemann, each dilution followed by succussion is assumed to increase the "medicinal power"." I'd be ok with that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.54.77.48 (talk) 22:16, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

"Clinical studies of the medical efficacy ..."

"Clinical studies of the medical efficacy of homeopathy have been criticised by some homeopaths as being irrelevant because they do not test 'classical homeopathy'.[139]" I don't see support for this sentence in the cited BBC article. Perhaps someone cited the BBC article when they meant to cite something else. Also, why has Jack Killen's speculative, evidence shy opinion, "[homeopathy] goes beyond current understanding of chemistry and physics", been included in a section on meta-analyses? His position lends some validity to the inclusion of his second comment as a summary of NCCAM work, but the first comment has nothing to do with evidence. Shouldn't the stances of NCCAM, the NHS, AMA and FASEB really be in a separate section on the positions of medical bodies? ← Randomnonsense ^talk 19:29, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Looking around, it seems Killen's quote was not intended to be favourable. However, it reads like he is saying that physics and chemistry haven't caught up to homeopathy, rather than saying they are in contradiction. It just looks like a typical quote from someone pushing woo. Am I the only one that reads it like that? ← Randomnonsense ^talk 23:30, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

I suspect that the Society of Homeopaths spokeswoman's claim that "it has been established beyond doubt and accepted by many researchers, that the placebo-controlled randomised controlled trial is not a fitting research tool with which to test homeopathy" is getting at the issue of RCTs not testing "classical" (i.e. individualized) homoeopathy, but you are correct that it doesn't quite say this. It is an objection frequently brought up by proponents of homoeopathy though, so it isn't too hard to find examples homoeopaths saying this sort of thing. For example here's George Vithoulkas: "The idea of double blind research is valid for conventional medicine but not for homeopathy which is based on the principle of giving a remedy for a totality of symptoms of an individual and not only for his single ailment, disease or pathology." Here's the (UK) Society of Homeopaths website: "Two key factors are the need for larger scale trials (commonly prevented by a lack of funding) and the use of more appropriate research methods such as pragmatic trials, which are better-suited to the task of testing a complex individualised therapy such as homeopathy." And here's another pro-homoeopathy site: "However, in order to conform to the conditions of group treatment, for a specific ailment used in an RCT, this individualization cannot exist – despite the reality that this is one of homeopathy’s strengths." Brunton (talk) 23:24, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Weatherley-Jones, Thompson and Thomas (2004) looks like a better source, papers seem to cite this regularly when saying that RCTs are inadequate. Verhoef et al (2005) has more cites and plays the same role, but is more general and doesn't focus on homeopathy. ← Randomnonsense ^talk 18:08, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

From the abstract, that paper seems to be adressing a slightly different issue: that placebo controlled trials don't take into account "non-specific effects of consultations" (i.e. they control for the placebo effect).

Homoeopaths' criticisms of RCTs are mentioned in the article as an opinion of homoeopaths rather than as an assessment of the science, so homoeopaths expressing this opinion should be a good enough source. Brunton (talk) 06:02, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

No, the paper is specifically claiming that RCTs can't properly test individualised/classical homeopathy because non-specific and specific effects interact and thus cannot be separated in the way of an RCT. This is the source of the claim from homeopath's that RCTs are inadequate. In terms of weight I think a much cited paper from homeopathy's own journal is a much better source. ← Randomnonsense ^talk 20:32, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Examining the history, the sentence originally cited an article by Vithoulkas (the page you linked to above is a copy of this) and the BBC article. Vithoulkas moved his comments to a different page (now here), leaving the link dead and someone then deleted it. These two refs, however, are not talking about the same thing, Vithoulkas is saying that studies have not adhered to classical homeopathic principles and the quote in the BBC article is alluding to claims that RCTs are inappropriate for reasons outlined in the Weatherly-Jones paper. The text that follows these refs in the article is then a little disingenuous; Vithoulkas is claiming that clinical studies, even those that are labelled as classical, do not comply with principles of classical homeopathy, not that there have never been trials of classical homeopathy. ← Randomnonsense ^talk 22:46, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 18 March 2012

I request that the line "(e)ach dilution followed by succussion is assumed to increase the effectiveness." be changed to "According to Hahnemann, each dilution followed by succussion is assumed to increase the "medicinal power"." using the reference Hahnemann S (1833), The Organon of the Healing Art (5th ed.), aphorisms 270, ISBN 087983228. My reasons for the change are as follows: 1. The original sentence is not referenced by a primary source 2. The original sentence is not referenced by a peer reviewed journal 3. The original sentence does not identify who has made the "assumption" 4. The original sentence uses the term "effectiveness" which is unreferenced and is ambiguous The new edited sentence: 1. Is referenced by a historical primary source which is referenced elsewhere in the page 2. Identifies who has made the "assumption" 3. Removes the term "effectiveness" which is unreferenced and is ambiguous 4. Has been suggested to make for a stronger and more accurate entry on this topic page In the spirit of providing information which is referenced to reliable sources (ie. historical primary sources, peer reviewed journals), I believe this change more accurately reflects the meaning of a statement as it pertains to changes that may occur when a homeopathic substance is prepared. Dizzybee (talk) 15:00, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

• Deny - This seems to be essentially identical to the request Talk:Homeopathy#Edit_request_on_17_March_2012 which was already marked as answered. While I agree that the reference is a little weak, Wikipedia doesn't require references for facts that are "unlikely to be disputed". When we say "2+2=4" or "The sky is blue" - we don't need references. The idea of successive dilution and succussion making the treatment more potent is at the core of what homeopathy is...that's essentially all it is - I can't imagine anyone denying it. Since the fact isn't in any way controversial, it doesn't need a super-solid reference. There are any number of places where this core belief of homeopathists is stated to be the case...and we don't need peer reviewed journals to say that because nobody denies that they make this claim. What would require solid referencing would be any statement that dilution and succussion actually does improve efficacy...but that's not what our article says. Removing this statement removes the heart of the explanation of what homeopathy is. We need to get across the message that homeopathists believe this - or else we don't have much of an article. Hence, I strongly disagree with this change - and would revert it on sight. SteveBaker (talk) 16:28, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

•  Not done: It actually does have a reference (number 9). Per policy, we should avoid ascribing uncontested views to only a single opinion. AFAIK, every homeopath ascribes to the view that higher dilutions result in higher 'effectiveness', so we should not attribute it to the sole opinion of Hahnemann. Thanks for the suggestion, though! If you know of any sources which say that some branch of homeopathy doesn't believe that, feel free to present them and we may be able to modify the statement accordingly. All the best,   — Jess· Δ♥ 16:44, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

• Thank you Jess for the sober reply. I have 3 points to make. Firstly, I ask that if you use the term dilution when referring to homeopathic preparations that you also include the term succussion, or use a more general term such as "homeopathic preparation". Secondly, when entering the search term "homeopathic pharmacy" into my google search engine, the first item was from the RiteCare pharmacy website (http://www.ritecare.com/homeopathic/guide_potency.asp)The second sentence reads as follows: "Many, new to homeopathy, mistake potency or dilution with strength. There is actually no correlation between potency and the strength of a homeopathic medicine. A homeopathic medicine at 30C potency is not stronger than the same medicine at 6C or 3C. The difference is in their action. While a 6C potency is better suited for a local symptom, a 30C or higher potency is more appropriate for general conditions such as allergy, stress or sleep disorders." I quote this not to use this as a reference but rather to point out that opinion is very much divided on the view that each dilution followed by succussion is assumed to increase the effectiveness. Thirdly, I will set to work (as you encouraged) on finding sources which reflect the diversity of opinion on the subject. Kind regardsDizzybee (talk) 18:04, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

  That's a very interesting point. Many thanks for the link - having references clearly helps us here. Clearly though, even the Rite Care folks must concede that some degree of dilution is required to turn something that CAUSES an adverse symptom into one that CURES that very same symptom. I'd be happy to consider rephrasing this if we can find reliable sources for each of the contrary viewpoints. The RiteCare pharmacy link is (IMHO) enough to support a statement to the effect that some homeopathists have different beliefs - but I think I'd want to see something stronger to state that homeopathists in general subscribe to the "lower dilution for local conditions, higher dilution for general conditions" theory of homeopathy. This new diagnostic twist would make for an interesting new section in the article. SteveBaker (talk) 14:41, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

  Thank you all for the comments. I am trying to figure out what strikes me as wrong with the statement and how we can improve on this sentence to reflect something that is more accurate either to what was historically stated or to what is current clinical practice. If I were to read the sentence as it is, I would assume that homeopaths would be using the most diluted and succussed substances they could get their hands on in order to maximize effectiveness. That simply is not the case. As a CAM practitioner who uses homeopathy, there are plenty of instances where I would use “lower” potencies to maximize effectiveness. These clinical decisions are based many factors related to the clinical experience. I will refer to 3 studies published in peer reviewed journals to illustrate that homeopaths do not think that increased effectiveness is achieved by additional dilution and succusion. In Jutte R, Riley D. A review of the use and role of low potencies in homeopathy. Complementary Therapies in Medicine (2005) 13, 291—296, the authors performed a historical overview of the ideas around potency selection. Their summary is as follows:

“Common statements on potency selection in homeopathic literature High potencies preferable if the emphasis of the symptoms is psychological Low potencies if focus of symptoms is physical/organic, at least at the beginning of treatment High potencies can/should be repeated less frequently, low potencies can be repeated more frequently Low potencies are often used in acute cases. Due to the predominance of certain common, physical symptoms in acute cases (rather than a fully developed individual symptomatology), it is often wiser to prescribe in low potencies. Initial frequent administration of a low potency can also provide the organism with the added stimulation required in acute diseases Low potencies are often used in conjunction with patients on conventional medications The use of constitutional medicines in low potencies can be used to facilitate the response to the same remedy in a higher potency. In line with this, a low potency is often prescribed in tandem with a high potency in chronic cases” As you will note, the choice of an effective potency is based on given clinical situations and not on giving a high potency whenever possible. In Klein-Laansma C.T. et al. Semi-standardised homeopathic treatment of premenstrual syndrome with a limited number of medicines: Feasibility study. Homeopathy (July 2010), 99 (3), pg. 192-204, they monitored the potency selection in a controlled analysis and found the following: “Potencies and doses The following potencies were used: D12, Q2, Q6, C30, 30K, 200K, MK, frequencies varying from daily (D12 and some X-potencies) to once every week (C30, 30K) or once or twice per month (MK and 200K).” As you can see, in a controlled clinical situation, remedy potency selection was not uniformly high to attain effectiveness but rather reflected a broad range of potency choice based on a clinicians approach to the condition. Finally, in Deroukakis M. Selection of potencies by medical and non-medical homeopaths: a survey. Homeopathy (July 2002), 91 (3), pg. 150-155, his survey revealed a broad range of situations where either high or low potencies would achieve the desired effectiveness. He summarizes: “High potencies are more often used when mental symptoms are striking. High potencies are not reserved for chronic diseases and similarly, low potencies are not reserved for acute diseases. High potencies are used in acute situations. In ‘sluggish constitutions’, a low potency is thought to be of greater use as it matches the patient’s vital force. High potencies should be repeated less often than low potencies. High potencies are administered if the ‘picture’ is clear.” There are other examples expressing similar views. I would like to know how we should move forward to provide a more accurate expression for the Wikipedia page. Dizzybee (talk) 14:50, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

• Hold on a minute here...that exact same web site ( http://www.ritecare.com/homeopathic/guide_general.asp - in the section "How are Homeopathic Medicines Prepared?") says: "In Homeopathy, the higher the dilution level, the more deeply the remedy acts. For this reason the higher potencies (the more diluted medicines) are generally dispensed by pharmacies or licensed health care professionals. The lower potencies 6X, 12X, 6C, 12C and 30C are the potencies most commonly found in retail and health food stores." - this totally contradicts what they said in your quote! If the distinction between lower and higher dilutions is the applicability to more or less "local" conditions - then why are the more diluted ones only available to pharmacies and licensed professionals? Clearly they believe that the higher dilutions are more potent and therefore have to be more carefully dispensed. This stuff is such bullshit - even a single company can't keep their story straight!

  SteveBaker (talk) 15:01, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

• Yes quite funny about this apparent contradiction. It seems they are twisting into a pretzel trying to reconcile the various threads of homeopathic thought and theory. Admittedly this is a huge problem with homeopathy - when you don't understand the mechanism of action (if any), you are left with theoretical conjecture and/or individual observations which are subject to bias. The RiteAID quote hypothesizes that higher potencies act more "deeply" which is not necessarily an issue of effectiveness depending on the clinical situation. I think the latter references I listed outline with slightly less flaky language the situations where the number of succusions and dilutions intersect with effectiveness. Dizzybee (talk) 15:59, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

I'd phrase that differently - when there isn't any mechanism of action, you can make up any random nonsense you like about how you're going to prescribe it and what you claim it'll treat. THAT's why there is no consistency. If there was evidence behind the claims then everyone would be able to rely on that evidence in knowing how to prescribe. But when people are lying about what their product can do - with full knowledge that it's been proven to do nothing at all - then any set of lies is as good as any other. But the question here is what should we write? SteveBaker (talk) 19:17, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Simply put, I'd leave it as-is. The majority of homeopaths adhere to the "more dilutions == more efficacy" idea. It's the fringe of this fringe that says otherwise. WP:WEIGHT would indicate leaving that out. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:57, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the links Dizzybee. Perhaps something like this would work: "Each dilution followed by succussion is assumed to increase the effectiveness, or change the area affected." We could obviously tweak the wording as appropriate. However, we'd first have to show that the view was a significant view (not minority or fringe) before incorporating it to that degree. Alternatively, we need to show that it is at least a minority view to incorporate it elsewhere in the body (to a lesser degree). WP:WEIGHT says that we should be able to name prominent adherents in order to establish the latter. Are there notable members of the homeopathy community which would stand behind this view of dilution and succussion? If so, we could mention this in the body as "[John Smith] says that dilution and succussion is capable of changing the locality of the remedy, rather than increasing its effectiveness as is commonly claimed." What would be ideal, here, is a standard homeopathy text which mentions the view and its adoption. Maybe google scholar could turn something up.   — Jess· Δ♥ 08:25, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I too have a problem with the line "Each dilution followed by succussion is assumed to increase the effectiveness." The line should simply be removed in my opinion. Professional homeopaths make no such assumptions, otherwise all but the highest potencies of remedies would have been eliminated decades ago. The term "effectiveness" is inaccurate. Effectiveness is quality of results, which is dependent as much on proper choice of remedy as is its potency. The only thing that can be positively asserted in any similar statement would be that 'each dilution followed by succussion ... increases the measure of a remedy's potency.' Kannon McAfee (talk) 09:04, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you all for your comments. I appreciate the issues of WP:WEIGHT and that we should attempt to uncover what the homeopathic community thinks on this issue. I have listed a few sources from peer reviewed sources which contradict the statement that "(e)ach dilution followed by succussion is assumed to increase the effectiveness." I think that they are solid sources. There are other sources in the homeopathic community which also seem to contradict the statement. George Vithoulkas, one of the "subsequent proponents" on the Wikipedia homeopathy page outlines his understanding of the use of potency here: http://www.vithoulkas.com/en/books-study/books-of-gv/2086.html.On this page he outlines various circumstances where either low potencies or high potencies should be used. "Children who are suffering from severe problems should generally be given low potencies.""Patients who have weak constitutions, old people, or very hypersensitive people should initially be given potencies ranging, roughly, from 12 X to 200." In his latest book, Levels of Health (International Academy of Classical Homeopathy, 2010) Vithoulkas outlines the reasoning behind potency selection and states that the potency selection is based on: 1. the sensitivity of the patient, 2. the health of the patient, 3. the depth of pathology, 4. whether the health of the patient is in imminent danger the degree of similarity of the selected remedy to the symptomatology of the patient. According to Vithoulkas, the effectiveness of a remedy in a clinical circumstance is based on many factors. Rajan Sankaran, another prominent homeopath and also one of the "subsequent proponents" on the Wikipedia homeopathy page also seems to contradict the statement. Paraphrased here: http://www.homeopathyforhealth.net/2010/02/04/sankaran%E2%80%99s-seven-levels-and-selecting-the-potency-in-homeopathy/ and found in his later titles "Sensation in Homeopathy" and "Sensation Refined", Sankaran's potency selection is based primarily on how the patient is "expressing" their disease - whether they are speak about their disease in factual terms, or metaphors of delusion or sensation, etc. For Sankaran there is no assumption of increased effectiveness as the potency increases. Different potencies are simply used for different clinical circumstances.

Here are two prominent homeopaths who have, I think, contradicted the statement "(e)ach dilution followed by succussion is assumed to increase the effectiveness." Should we seek out more sources to help clarify the issue? One possibility is to seek out some of the exam questions homeopaths in regulated jurisdictions have to answer around potency to see if supports or contradicts the statement. Any thoughts? Dizzybee (talk) 01:45, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

This is what I love about Wikipedia: a reasoned discussion on documenting the subject.

That said, it does seem worth at least revising that statement a bit. Kannon McAfee has a good suggestion there. "Each dilution followed by succussion is assumed to increase a remedy's potency." might be a more accurate statement of homeopath's beliefs. Note that I keep "assumed" as there's no actual evidence of potency at all. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 02:31, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that response Dizzybee. I'm a little short on time right now, so I can't read through your sources quite yet, but I'd like to nail down the type of change we're discussing if we can. Correct me if I've misunderstood you, but you were talking before about how increased dilution and succussion was believed to result in a change in locality for the remedy. Now, it seems we're discussing whether "effectiveness" is the right word to use, or if "potency" might be better. Which of those two changes are you hoping to implement (or both)? Would HandThatFeed's suggestion to change the wording to "potency" solve this issue? I think that might be a good option, from my understanding of the literature.   — Jess· Δ♥ 04:34, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Any time we say "X believes...", "Y thinks..." or "Z knows..." we err. We simply cannot know what is in someone else's head. Any source which claims to do so is at best using figurative language, at worst is unreliable. This is especially when we say "X believes [something incredible]". Instead, we should restrain ourselves to saying what they wrote or stated, as verifiable in published reliable sources.LeadSongDog come howl! 05:46, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

BS. This is what is claimed by homeopaths. It's the entire point of their "method." We're not mind-reading, we're repeating what they've clearly said. You can change "assume" to "advocate" if you want to be pedantic about it, since that's in the cited source on the very next sentence. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:12, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I've heard this argument before that we shouldn't say "so-and-so believed X, Y, and Z" because we don't know what he truly believed. Did Darwin believe in evolution? Does the pope believe Jesus was the messiah? No way to know for sure, so we better not include that.

It's technically correct; but, I believe HTF labeling this 'pedantic' is the perfect word for it. Nothing personal, LeadSong, this is just my personal opinion, and I respect your viewpoint. But, as I see it, if someone wrote about something or expressed a view point, I believe that is sufficient evidence (in general) to state he/she believed in it.JoelWhy (talk) 20:19, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

So what's the problem? Just say "X said Y" or "X wrote Y" or "X is on record as having said/wrote Y" if we don't have a direct reference. It's really easy to work around HTFY's issue here - be pedantically correct and yet still say exactly what we needs to be said on the matter. SteveBaker (talk) 03:02, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. We can't tell if the speaker believes it or is spouting what Hand calls "BS". If we say in the voice of the encyclopedia that he believes something we say is false then we are in effect calling him gullible, rather than duplicitous. We have no grounds to make that call. "Say" is quite sufficient. LeadSongDog come howl! 18:30, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

My term 'measure' of a remedy's potency is neutral. This term 'measure' does not make a claim of effectiveness or ineffectiveness. It simply denotes how homeopaths make and label their medicine -- even if it is "BS" -- which I see as an advocacy statement AGAINST homeopathy. If you start out so biased against it and unwilling to put it personally to the test, then it is very difficult to maintain NPOV, which in my opinion is really lacking in this Homeopathy article. It is possible to select terms that neither advocate or criticize the methodology while describing it. The term 'assumed' has been promoted here to nullify claims to 'effectiveness' that simply are not relevant to the sentence describing the process of how a homeopathic remedy is made. I have no problem with dropping the sentence entirely. That would be better than maintaining descriptive information lacking NPOV. Kannon McAfee (talk) 02:18, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

You're wrong about having to personally put Homeopathy to the test before we can comment on it - that's ridiculous. Are you saying that you wouldn't believe that a broken leg could be mended with a plaster cast without first breaking your leg and trying it? Can we not say that the height of Mount Everest is 8,848 meters without personally climbing up there with tape-measure in hand? Absolutely not! In fact, if you did exactly that then Wikipedia would explicitly forbid you from using your experience to write on the subject because that would be original research. We say that Homeopathy is BS because there are a ton of scientifically run tests that prove that - and not a single carefully run double-blind test that shows that it works. It's not a matter of advocacy - it's a matter of "The Truth" as defined by Wikipedia for the purposes of writing articles.

NPOV doesn't mean giving equal weight to both sides of an argument because that would mean that we'd have to write that it's that it's equally possible that the earth is flat rather than round. We'd have to say that because the flat-earth society say so and we have to give their POV equal footing to the likes of NASA. Fortunately, for the sake of writing a moderately sane encyclopedia that doesn't give every whack-job equal air time: No, that's not what NPOV means. In the context of Wikipedia, WP:NPOV means giving appropriate weight to the various points of view - in a manner that's proportionate to the amount of reliable evidence for that point of view. That allows us to say "The world is definitely round. (Although members of the flat earth society claim otherwise)". It also allows us to say "Homeopathy definitely doesn't work. (Although homeopathists claim otherwise)". Both of those are NPOV statements given appropriately reliable sources for those statements.

Since the evidence (as required by WP:MEDRS and WP:FRINGE) for claims that homeopathy is effective is entirely absent - and evidence that it's no better than placebo is everywhere - the perfect NPOV article on the subject most certainly should say, unequivocable, that homeopathy is BS - because that's what the unanimous findings of WP:MEDRS-acceptable sources are. Sure, you don't like this rule - you find it unfair to your strong beliefs - but that is how Wikipedia is run. There really isn't much you can do about that. SteveBaker (talk) 03:02, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

POV would be if used language which, for instance, cast homeopaths as terrible people, or advocated for the banning of homeopathy. On the other hand, it is not POV to make it clear in the article that, by every objective measure that homeopathy has been tested, it has been shown to provide no health benefits beyond the placebo effect.JoelWhy (talk) 13:11, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that's certainly true. SteveBaker (talk) 15:06, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

I have outlined several sources and I hope you have had a chance to look at them. In the context of the original line "(e)ach dilution followed by succussion is assumed to increase the effectiveness." that I was wanting to edit, I propose the following long summary of what I sourced with regards to this issue. This summary is provided in the spirit of making a more accurate statement.

Homeopath's assume that each dilution followed by succussion: 1. creates a new homeopathic substance 2. are termed "homeopathic potencies" 3. have different clinical applications.

This would be my understanding of what homeopaths assume/think regarding the application of different potencies. I may be wrong. However I feel I have backed my arguments up with what some may call solid sources.

It may be helpful (I know it was helpful to me!) to try and not think of the term "potency" as "strength" (in this context). In my opinion "potency" is an unfortunate word applied in this context. However the genie is out of the bottle and I don't think we will be able to get the homeopathic world to change its terminology. Perhaps we should start using a term like "homeopathic preparation".

Anyhow, I know my suggestion is a bit wordy and could use some wordsmithing however I thought I would put this suggestion out there for comment and consensus building. I also think we could go back to a more historical version such as "According to Hahnemann, each dilution followed by succussion is assumed to increase the "medicinal power" if that is deemed more appropriate.Dizzybee (talk) 17:49, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Based on your suggestion, maybe this would work:

Each dilution followed by succussion is assumed to increase the homeopathic potency of the remedy, creating a new homoepathic substance with different clinical applications.

I'll comb through the sources when I get a chance and see if this reflects the literature. In the meantime, does anyone have a problem with that? Feel free to tweak as necessary.   — Jess· Δ♥ 18:49, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

The terms "potency" and "remedy" have iirc been the subject of edit wars in the past. Have a look/search through the archives above to get the background. While the use of poison quotes in this context would carry delicious irony, it would need to gain explicit consensus in order to prevent further disruption. LeadSongDog come howl! 18:52, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

LSD, are you referring to Dizzybee's bulleted proposal which uses quotes, or mine which doesn't? I just want to be clear on what you're pointing out. Thanks.   — Jess· Δ♥ 18:56, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

LSD, I'm not surprised that there have been edit wars in the past. I'm glad you are here with the institutional memory of this page. Please let us know if we are re-hashing things that have been sorted out already. Jess, thanks for the draft. The term potency in this context may be interpreted in different ways depending on who is reading. I think homeopaths will say sure, as you dilute and succuss, the potency increases (ie. it goes from a 3CH to a 4CH. The number does increase). I think someone unfamiliar with the way homeopathic substances are prepared will think that the strength increases. I will defer a re-draft until there is input from others.Dizzybee (talk) 19:16, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

In a nutshell - homeopathists use common English language words in extremely non-standard ways. We can't use words like "potency" and assume that our readers will understand the weird way that homeopathists use it. Even if they look it up in a dictionary, it won't provide the meaning that homeopathists ascribe to it. Since there is a strong suspicion that homeopathists do this deliberately in order to obfuscate their claims, we have to be extremely careful not to let these non-standard meanings cloud the issues within our article. For example, Wiktionary says that "potency" means:

1. Strength
2. Power
3. The ability or capacity to perform something.

Other dictionaries that I've checked say essentially the same thing.

When you dilute something and claim to have increased it's "potency" then the standard English meaning is that you made it stronger, more powerful, more able to cure diseases. Since some (perhaps most) homeopathists do in fact believe this, it's tough to come along and say "Yes, they do say that the 'potency' increases when you dilute something - but 'potency' doesn't mean what you think it does." That just means that we can't believe a single word that these whack-jobs write because whenever you corner them they just claim to have redefined this or that word. This is yet another reason why we can't use Homeopathist's writings as sources for this article. If they're going to go around redefining common English words without providing a clear statement of what they interpret those words to mean and - worse still - if these words mean different things to different homeopathists - then it should come as no surprise that they gain no traction in communicating their views. SteveBaker (talk) 01:05, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Homeopaths attempt to salvage a positive result from treatment failure in an underpowered trial

Homeopaths attempt to salvage a positive result from treatment failure in an underpowered trial, M Vagg, Focus on Alternative and Complementary Therapies, March 2012

Brangifer (talk) 19:25, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Sadly a common feature of alt-med researchers. But a pertinent point is made by the critics, one arm of this trial was of individualised prescriptions. No statistical difference was found between any of the arms for primary outcome although realistically, no result could be considered as the sample size was so low. Acleron (talk) 17:57, 26 March 2012 (UTC)