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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 24.185.107.196 (talk) at 00:54, 9 May 2006 (holmes morton). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Organization

There is plenty of good material in this article, but it sure needs to be reorganized; having two different sections named "other" is a bad sign. Howabout this for an outline:

History
Origins in Europe
Amish split
Recent history
Religion, lifestyle, and culture
Technology
Hochmut & Demut
Language and dress
Growth and distribution
Relations with outsiders (Amish and the outside world? Amish and the "English?" Amish and popular culture? Can't decide what to name this part...)
Separation
Taxes, insurance, etc.

Wachholder0 16:28, 25 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikify

Several of the sections lack any links at all. I should probably fix it, but meh... Notthe9 20:34, 22 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

featured article

how do you submit to featured article status, imo this is a good example of an informative npov article.

Rewrote Intro

I rewrote part of the introduction, moving some information to the languages section and adding more about beliefs etc. I know that much of this is already included in the anabaptist and Monnonite articles, but I think there needed to be more on what the Amish actually believe and less emphasis on how funny they look/talk.

Politics (in intro)

"their pacifism and social conscience make them attractive to one major party, and their generally conservative outlook to another." This statement makes it seem as though only the followers of one of the two major political parties have social conscience and the followers of the other do not.

Dress Section

Why are these statements under the heading Dress: "The Amish are noted for the quality of their quilts and for their farming efficiency. Some Amish have enthusiastically adopted genetically engineered crops for their efficiency."

I'm not very educated about the Amish way of life, but it strikes me as extremely confusing to read about them accepting the use of GM (oh, or is it GE, genetically engineered) seeds for farming. I do believe that this deserves a very good explanation, reference, or both. Oh well, there was a mention of recent vandalism on history. Maybe it's just that? 62.220.237.68 21:46, 15 December 2005 (UTC) -was logged out when I wrote the previous, anon comment. Didn't find a reason to believe that the comment on use of genetically engineered seeds was vandalism. Still, any comment on the issue? Santtus 21:58, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

    • In Europe, GM is often seen as technology that is perhaps "too advanced" or "gone too far". Most people in here would recognize it as quite advanced and a recent invention, at least. With the supposed Amish aversion for technology, it would seem natural for them to shun the use of GM crops as well. I do understand that the perceived technological threat of GM food is not shared by Americans, but I would have expected it from the Amish. Just my two cents. Santtus 23:17, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]


See this article... I think the reason is, first of all, in North America, GM foods are not seen so negatively in general as they are in Europe. Also, most Amish accept some modern inventions such as solar power, rollerblades, sometimes even cell-phones, etc. It is not technology per se that is seen negatively. I guess that is the best explanation. There would surely be some Amish who would refuse or hesitate to grow GM crops, but there are no church rules against it in any congregation as far as I know. I don't know if the ultra-traditional Amish groups (like the Swartzendruber Amish, Troyer Amish and the White-top Amish) grow GM or not, but I would be interested to find out. Stettlerj 02:14, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In short, the reason that some Amish grow GM crops is that there are no church rules against it. Unless an Amish congregation and Bishop is prepared to shun someone who uses GM crops then it will be up to individual choice. I think at best some Amish may discourage its use, but I don't think the Amish will ever make it a test of membership. The Amish will follow their Bishop and community rules, and, maybe it is a small exageration but, if a given bishop said tomorrow "cars are ok" the next day half the families would switch to a different congregation, and the other half would buy a car tomorrow. In fact this has happened. (if you drive in certain amish communities, look who'se passing you on the freeway, he just might be an Amishman)Stettlerj 02:33, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]


I've noticed that the dress section has a good summary on how men dress and stuff, but where is the info on what women dress? Someone should add this info.Zachorious 08:14, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Is it impossible to link to Japanese language pages? I tried to link to [[ja:ƒA[ƒ~ƒbƒVƒ…]] but it doesn't show up after I save. I can link though from the Esperanto Amish page to the Japanese page.

It is possible to do it, as I've seen Japanese links work correctly. What's the exact title of the Japanese page? Maybe I can figure it out. The Esperanto page displays only ???? on my browser, though the link works fine. Tokerboy
I linked successfully from the article on PA Dutch/German but I have not been able to do so with this person's Amish article. The title for the japanese article is "Amishu" written in katakana script.
But what are you supposed to type? I don't know how to write in katakana. I'll leave a message for User:Brion Vibber as he may know how to fix the link. Tokerboy

It doesn't show up even if I write it. I tried to write it in the first paragraph :). If you want to know how to get to the Japanese Amish page you can go to the page on PA German and go to the Japanese version and from there hit the link in the article. Then you have the Japanese version of the Amish. It is pretty small because my Japanese abilities are limited.


Unfortunately, all I get is question marks as I don't have any fonts that can display Japanese characters. (Unless every word in Japanese really is "???????", but I imagine that would be confusing.) Tokerboy 05:05 Feb 6, 2003 (UTC)


It works now. I found the article through the Esperanto page, then copied the name in the address bar. You can use ja:アーミッシュ or [[ja:アーミッシュ]], on a talk page showing up as ja:アーミッシュ; in Esperanto the Japanese characters themselves were in the edit box, and when I tried to copy these to the edit box in the English wikipedia, that did not work. I changed the Esperanto link to one of the other two forms to enable copying. - Patrick 11:17 Feb 6, 2003 (UTC)

The off site link gives some very questionable information about the Amish (and when one looks for the bibliographical backup for some of the questionable information one gets a website link that no longer exists!). I thus changed the offsite link to http://www.800padutch.com/amish.shtml which I believe is far more accurate.

Voltage

"Worldly modern appliances such as televisions, light bulbs, and hair dryers often use 110 or 240 volt electricity, and will not operate under twelve volt current."

A small nitpick: volt is not the unit of electric current (see Current_(electricity) and Ohm's law). I suggest changing the sentence to "Most twelve volt power sources can't generate enough current to power worldly modern appliances such as televisions, light bulbs, and hair dryers."

Since no one voiced objections, I went ahead and made the changes.

Amish life styles

Being a former Amish, I get very perturbed on some "fact" that I hear from time to time regarding the Amish. Even though I choose to abandon the community, I still have the utmost respect. Regarding the issue with a 16-year old being of age was not true in my community. Of age meant 21+ years-of-age, not 16.

Also, I keep hearing (from outsiders of course) about Amish teenagers being allowed to choose their lifestyle. That is almost an outrage. Amish beliefs forbid someone to choose, scripture says that one must remain in what they were taught - thus, born amish must remain amish. I would like to know where this originated from. What Amish community allows their children to choose the "outside", the modern lifestyle??? Yes, they may "choose" their lifestyle, but they certainly will then be shunned/banned or otherwise considered to have lost grace with God and will NOT enter the Kingdom of God for they live in great sin. Do not confuse allow with inability to control.

And by the way, the movie Witness has many, many flaws. It cannot be used as educational film.

If no one will provide me with a credible source to the above "choose your own lifestyle" claim, I will delete it.

The place I saw about this period of going out into the "English" world and choosing whether or not to return was in the documentary The Devil's Playground. It referred to this time as "rumspringa" and followed the lives of a variety of Pennsylvania and Ohio Amish teenagers.

Someone needs to fix up how clearly two people have written this page and one of them has copied a lot of stuff of the others. In 'Status' there is repetition of the Dutch/Deutsch comment, and also later a repetition of the Devil's Playground comment.

  • I agree. I've added the cleanup tag to get the attention of others. If I find myself with time, I'll do it. --Tysto 15:06, 2005 August 21 (UTC)

As another person of Amish ethnic heritage I have to disagree withe first comments on lack of choice. As mentioned several times in the article different Amish communities choose different things. For example, my conservative relatives belong to Ontario Amish churches affiliated with the Beachy Amish groups in the United States. The Beachy Amish, like any other congregation of any other Christian denomination, expect certain agreements on issues from their members, but unlike the Old Order Amish or Old Order Mennonite groups the Beachy Amish do not favour strong application of the Meidung (the shunning) of those who transfer to a more liberal church or even different denomination.

My grandparents, when they were married, chose not to attend one of the two churches which their families did, but went to a near-by, more liberal Amish congregation, later to be followed by about half of their siblings. But nobody was ever shunned or banned or anything like that. Indeed, to this day we carry on a healthy tradition of yearly extended family reunions. Never once on meeting a more conservative relative in the streets or other non-family gatherings have they been embarrassed to chat for a bit. Clearly no shunning going on there. I would suggest that the tone of the initial comments, focusing as they do on lack of choice and shunning, as well as the use of the term "abandon", that the poster might have had some negative experiences with the Meidung in his or her community which are colouring his or her views. I am a man with long hair, both ears pierced with a hankering for electronic gadgetry and never once has a more conservative Amish relative or acquaintance made me feel that I am less Amish than they are.

I will, however, agree with the initial poster's comments about using movies as an educational source. Until a few years ago I had never heard of the term "rumspringa" before. Yes, unmarried young adult Amish are given a little more leniency, just like the surrounding society gives to early twenty-somethings, but nothing so extreme as to require specific term for it. When I asked my Grandmother about it, she referred to is a something some American Amish groups practiced but she wasn't too familiar with it. From my personal investigation it appears that the use of rumspringa correlates with how conservative the group is. The more conservative the community is, the more you have "Amish Tweenies Gone Wild" type of thing. Beachy Amish communities place less significance on the rumspringa, possibly due to their lack of insistence on the Meidung. When people know that they have a choice and will not be excommunicated from their community for differing opinions there is less of a chance of (extreme) rebellion.

Also, in the Amish communities of Ontario with which I am familiar, "coming of age" happens at 18, just like the surrounding Canadian society, though that phrase implies some major celebration which does not exist (except for perhaps a slightly bigger birthday party).

My understanding of the rumspringa is that its use and extent varies, and that among some communities it has fallen out of use. I know of several people who went through it - and are now conservative Mennonite instead.

Image Used

I'd like to suggest a different image be used, merely as a pretext of holding with the Amish value of not allowing their faces to appear on photographs (related to the "graven images" doctrine of the Biblical law) - the current one seems to be clearly taken without the permission of the passing couple, and would likely offend them if they knew it were being used

  • Good one Xizer, that's funny, I just got a laugh. This copyright thing and tagging, some people live for it...Scotty
  • There are lots of books and websites about Amish people and Amish country that show their faces[1]. --Tysto 14:49, 2005 August 21 (UTC)
  • Not that many really - following that link shows only two on the whole page. Generally such pictures are taken without their permission. Most pictures that are permitted are of children, which in many cases may be all right (or may not).

The picture is disrespectful. I think we should replace it J C 06:51, 12 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am of the opinion that all the photos here are respectful of Amish culture. Even many Amish have hidden away a few photographs. We don't have to follow the Amish rules, and the Amish don't expect other people who are not Amish to follow their rules. Amish are not allowed to pose for photographs, as long as you don't ask them to pose, and you are not a nuisance when you take the picture, I don't believe it is disrespectful to show them in photos Stettlerj 19:12, 12 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Taking and using pictures of the Amish is to some degree the equivalent of putting the catholic Eucharist in a museum for public display. However I do understand what you’re saying, so I give in. J C 22:54, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

see Talk:Beachy Amish for my opinion about whether Beachy Amish are Amish or not. I can't understand why user 130... thinks they are not. Some Beachy Amish practices are much closer to Mennonite practices, sure, just like Old Order Mennonite practices are closer to Old Order Amish practices than they are to the Mennonite Church USA. -User:Stettlerj

  • The Beachy Amish do not share Amish faith and practice. There are common elements among the Amish, and none of them exist throughout the Beachy Amish church. These include the use of homes for worship, Pennsylvania Dutch for language, the ban (and not just shunning), separated seating, uncut beards, shunning of electricity and automobiles, and more.
    • Although I would definitely consider the Beachy Amish to be Amish (perhaps in Lancaster there is a tendancy to keep the Amish identity for tourist reasons! I hope not), the Beachy Amish are definitely not what most have in mind when they think of Amish. However, I will admit, although I have Beachy Amish Freindschaft, I am not up to date on their opinions vis a vis the word "Amish" to describe themselves. Now I am interested to learn more. I think you are lucky to know people who were Beachy Amish User:Stettlerj

Say your opinion, your oppositions or your support, about starting a Pennsylvania German Wikipedia at New Languages Pennsylvania German.

re: other

health care in canada is free, why were donations collected for the child?

Good point. It is probably just a fabrication. There is a small chance that it is not false. There is a chance that the Amish refuse to accept OHIP for example, and insist on paying themselves, but I dont think the Amish in Ontario refuse OHIP. Many Amish in Canada were in fact born in the USA, but then again, this child came from an Amish community that has been in Canada since the 1820's! Stettlerj 00:06, 26 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Wait... WHAT?

"The Amish are a tight-knit religious group, descending predominantly from Swiss German immigrants". The Sweiss German immigrants in where? The Swiss Germans in Austria are amish? The introduction is extremely ambiguous, as it does not specify where these immigrants live, or what country/continent/group of countries are we talking about. Personally, I do not believe that there are Amishes in North Italy, where there are Swiss German immigrants. Do you mean Swiss Germans in Brazil, or in France, or in Canada, perhaps Austria, or Eastern Europe, or where? --85.49.224.216 15:08, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]


We mean all Swiss Germans everywhere are Amishes, it is the same thing Stettlerj 19:20, 12 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Amish paying Social Security taxes

Not all Amish pay into social security. "Tucked away in the 1965 Medicare Bill was a clause exempting the "Old Order Amish" and other religious groups that conscientiously objected to paying insurance premiums from Social Security tax. To be exempt, the group or sect must have been established prior to 1950 and maintain reasonable provisions for their elderly."

http://ask.yahoo.com/20030821.html

http://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/rulings/oasi/47/SSR83-02-oasi-47.html

http://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/rulings/oasi/45/SSR82-44-oasi-45.html


Vandalism and this site

What does it tell us about our society that this site seems to be one of the greatest magnets for vandalism? Stettlerj 13:39, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have a theory that vandalism can be correlated with research topics done by school children. Somehow I placed the New Deal article on my watch list and now notice that it is much more heavily vandalized than this article. It tends to happen during North American daytime hours and IP addresses often trace to schools. And maybe that brings us full circle back to this article: adolescents are more free to experiment with choices that many of us have given up by the time we reach the age of 25. JonHarder 15:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Plain sects

Could someone plese explain the relationship between Amish and plain sects. The latter article seems to imply that they are a subgroup of the Amish, whereas the description seems to coincide with the description of Amish given here. DJ Clayworth 16:15, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The plain sects article is awful that is all I can say. That article is full of inaccuracies such as all plain sects are Pennsylvania Dutch and descend from Jacob Amman's teachings ! Yikes. Thanks for pointing it out. At least the writer is trying, I guess it's not the writer's fault to try, but it remains inaccurate. Stettlerj 21:20, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Pennsylvania Dutch are descendants of the Amish immigration for religious freedom. It started with widow Barbara Yoder and her 9 children, featured the docking of the "Charming Nancy" in 1737 and was essentially over by 1770 because of a healed schism in the European religious community.

What tourists call "Pennsylvania Dutch" are religious adherents. What Wikipedia calls Pennsylvania Dutch are descendants of those people, regardless of their religious practice.

The religious adherents are not called "Pennsylvania Dutch" except in Pennsylvania, and they tell you they aren't necessarily Amish, either. Just as the term "Pennsylvania Dutch" or "jew" is ambiguous, perhaps meaning an ethnic group, and sometimes meaning those who practice a faith, the term "amish" is ambiguous, sometimes meaning a group that calls itself amish, and sometimes meaning a group that adheres to the primary thrust of Amman's theology, that of leaning an unworldly (plain) lifestyle, under the discipline of apartness (shunning.)

The Old Order Amish of Allen County Indiana are considerably more plain than the Old Order Amish of Lancaster County Pennsylvania. The hoosiers don't have phones in their businesses, don't wear tennis shoes, use umbrellas to protect themselves in weather that reaches -20F each winter, as opposed to spiffy fiberglass enclosed buggies in a climate where it doesn't always reach 0F each year. The Old Order Mennonites of Lancaster County will insist that they aren't Amish, yet they are plainer than the Beachy Amish.

The Lancaster New Era and the Lancaster Intelligencer-Journal use the term "plain sects" to include both Amish, and other religious adherents who do not call themselves Amish.

When a short question requires a long answer, that's indicative of a problem. George Bernard Shaw observed "England and America are two countries divided by a common language", but really, we don't need England to do a number on us; we are quite capable of dividing ourselves into myriad pieces with our ambiguous language. ClairSamoht 23:15, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

tourists say Pennsylvania Dutch are the Old Order religious people... I agree largely with you. The Wikipedia article, however, does not say that all Pennsylvania Dutch are descendants of the Amish immigrants. I believe this would be mistaken. The Wikipedia article says that (or should say that) the Pennsylvania Dutch descend from not only Amish immigrants, but Mennonite, Lutheran, Schwenkfelder, Dunker, Moravian etc. immigrants as well. I will quote the famous Amish-born sociologist John A. Hostetler:
The emigration movement encompassed many people of every known faith in the region [Palatinate]. Most numerous were the Lutherans and Reformed, but there were Catholics, Schwenkfelders, and a variety of mystics, as well as groups of Mennonites and Amish. All these groups spoke the Palatinate dialect known today as Pennsylvania German or Pennsylvania Dutch (Hostetler, 1993:52).
If you want to be even more confused... the Amish in Allen County don't even speak Pennsylvania Dutch and many many descendants of Mennonite immigrants to North America are not Pennsylvania Dutch at all Stettlerj. 00:47, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Amish in Allen County don't call it "Penncylvania Dutch", not do they call themselves Pennsylvania Dutch, but they call themselves Amish and speak Amish in their homes. Last time I was in Bruggeman's lumber yard in Milan Center, there was a sign that said "rauchen sie Nicht". When I lived there, the post office once delivered to me a copy of Die Blatt meant for a neighbor. I think it's safe to say you're incorrect in your assertion that they don't speak the dialect of Palatine German which you call Pennsylvania Dutch. And I don't see why it would be confusing that the son of a Mennonite who immigrated from Belize to Honolulu in 1968 should not be considered Pennsylvania Dutch. It'd be confusing if he WAS! ClairSamoht 01:34, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hex Signs

The Hex signs link said

Contrary to some popular fiction, hex signs are not a part of Amish culture.

so I removed it from this article. OK?

(PJB 19:03, 22 February 2006 (UTC) ( Talkin' to me punk?))[reply]


Amish stud service?

I live in Pennsylvania and have frequently been in Amish areas and around Amish people, although I have never personally spoken with one. I have heard from two different sources that there is a sort of "underground" practice within some Amish communities of allowing outsiders to impregnate their daughters to avoid inbreeding. During the act, most of the woman is covered by a sheet, including her face. And during the whole thing, the parents of the daughter remain in the room. Now, I know that most of you will think this is off-the-wall garbage. But I heard it from two indepent sources that know nothing of each other. So there is a definite rumor here in Pennsylvania that this takes place. Of course, it would violate the conservative beliefs of most Christians to do such a thing, so I have my doubts. I have not been able to verify this on the internet. I would be interested in any comments on this subject.

Seems to me likely you've got an urban legend here; many elements are present. Suggest you document when and where you heard it, and what you can about informants without violating confidentiality. Snopes.com tracks urban legends. Adamdavis 20:03, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That story doesn't have any of the characteristics of an urban legend. It fits better in the 'malicious lie' category. The idea of being covered by a sheet is particularly odd; the Amish dress conservatively in public, but they are not prudes. Neither does the idea of parents having their daughters impregnated by outsiders pass the giggle test: there are virtually no babies born to unmarried Amish women. Your story sounds like a bad version of A Boy And His Dog. ClairSamoht 01:39, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I checked on Snopes, and they don't have anything on the subject. I doubt they would waste their time researching this. ClairSamoht--I am a highly skeptical person myself. I agree with you that this is extremely unlikely, but I figured I'd see if anyone else could substantiate it, in the spirit of Wikipedia being about the unbiased truth. I heard it from two separate people, who don't know each other, living about 100 miles apart in Western PA. Both people knew people who claimed to have been involved with this. Very bizarre. What we would have here is two separate malicious lies, remarkably similar, which makes me wonder. But if noone else can verify it, I guess I'll dismiss it in my mind as a local urban legend.
I too checked Snopes, with the same result. I agree 100% with Claire that it's a malicious lie, but that doesn't prevent it from being an urban legend (Brunvand's books contain a number of tale-types and categories that would qualify as malicious lies; the "Lights Out" gang-initiation comes to mind). I googled key terms, and came up with two more independent versions of what I'm ready to call the "Amish stud service" legend. I think it fits many of the descriptors well -- it's foaf- (friend-of-a-friend)authenticated, it shows multiformity, it demonstrably rides the line of believability. Some folkorists would classify it as rumor rather than legend, because it's a generalized report rather than a specific narrative, but that's not a reliable divide. As for wasting time researching -- well, folklorists aren't much interested since the old historic-geographic days in whether something's accurate or not (I agree, that would be a waste of time). More regularly, there's a functionalist inquiry: why is this story told? What does it do for the people and groups who circulate it? I don't think that would be a waste of time at all (or at least, I have decided to waste some time in this way). Counterfactual stories (as this one almost certainly is) are interesting for that sort of study precisely because -- in the absence of factual warrant -- one can be sure that whatever reason people have for believing it is something psychological or sociological. Claire is right to zero in on the detail of the sheet -- it's strange, gratuitous, therefore probably meaningful, but the best appraoch is not to use it as an index of unlikeliness, but rather one of meaning. I'd want to collect more samples, with some context, before venturing a detailed interpretation, but it's pretty clear (to me) on the face of it that it comes out of ambivalence towards the alleged saintliness and purity of the the Amish, and the telling of the story is a kind of vicarious corruption (maybe rape is not too strong a word) of people whose moral superiority (claimed on their behalf rather than by them, of course) is experienced as a reproach. The story expresses a kind of Schadenfreude. I would think that the psychology of this narrative is identical with the motives behind the common misunderstanding/distortion of the "rumspringa," and the enthusiasm with which incidents of incest or abuse among the Amish are reported in a way they are not in the case of (oh, for example) Ukrainians. Adamdavis 15:18, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for such an intelligent response. I agree. I live near Pittsburgh, but the stories that I have heard come from Northeastern Pennsylvania, which is a nice place to visit. I don't think I'll be collecting any further samples on this because I don't want to bring people down, if you know what I mean. I think that they're misguided, but there is a certain charm to their philosophy (maybe that's why I like "The Village"). I would think them a bunch of sickos if this were the truth, as would most other people, so I don't want to ask around about this because it would just spread the rumor further, causing more people to come to this site looking for answers, and eventually raising it to the level of a true Snopes caliber urban legend.

I don't find the story particularly credible, but it does have the virtue of being verifiable, at least in principle. Scientists routinely take genetic samples from whole populations of, say, birds so as to determine the precise lines of descent. In fact, this is how we've discovered the popularity of cheating among birds we once thought to be strictly monogamous.

So, if we really, really wanted to -- and they let us -- we could find out exactly how true the story is. If we found people whose biological father is not their mother's husband, this would confirm the story. Even in cases where the father is dead, we could use close relatives to rule out the possibility that a non-Amish stud was used. While we were at it, we'd also be revealing some cases of marital infidelity and showing precisely how imbred some people are. Somehow, I don't see this ever happening.

As for the sex through a sheet thing, that's been done before, at least in terms of unverifiable stories. It's been claimed for orthodox Jews, who supposedly make use of a hole in the sheet. Alienus 20:31, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"If we found people whose biological father is not their mother's husband, this would confirm the story." That would prove that the child is a bastard. It wouldn't necessarily provide support for this story. The story doesn't lack credibility because the Amish are especially saintly; they aren't, and the Amish don't claim otherwise. It's the details - the unwed pregnancy, the sheet, the motivation of improving genetic matter - that provide a lack of voracity. If you made up a story about a guy, having been injured by a kicking horse, enlisting his brother to repeatedly impregnate his wife so his kids would look like him, it'd be far more credible. If you made up a story about an Amish construction worker being recruited by an English couple to sire a child, that's far more credible, too. I suspect both of those circumstances have probably happened. But the story as given just doesn't make sense. ClairSamoht 04:14, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To be more precise, if we determined that someone's father is not anyone in the Amish community, that would prove that it was an outsider. Depending on the sort of genetic markers that turn up, we might also be able to rule out anyone from other communities with which they often interbreed. Again, this comes down to the details. Not that it matters, since they'd never allow such an experiment to be performed.

"Glassenheit"?

Could somebody please double-check if the correct Amish spelling is "Glassenheit" as given in the text (in the part about "Demut" and "Hochmut") as the correct German spelling is "Gelassenheit" (e after the G). Thanks!

--Scot W. Stevenson 10:19, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That spelling renders the Amish pronunciation accurately, but maybe a spelling like "G'lassenheit" would make it clear that it's not simply an error. Adamdavis 20:13, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This webpage and the pages linked to at the top and bottom have the same text as this article. Have they taken it from us or the other way around? -- Kjkolb 09:00, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I contacted the owners but they did not respond. For this and other reasons, I suspect that they have copied the content from Wikipedia. --

I attempted to contact you regarding this issue. I have no intention of violating wiki copyright. I have added the lisencing at the bottom of the page. I dont know if this is enough, but I appreciate the wiki service, and would like to operate my business in compliance with your standards! Let me know if I have done everything to ensure proper representation.Kjkolb 02:44, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Good article

This article in my opinion has a few problems, which I will perhaps correct later. Some are quite minor like rumschpringe is never translated as "jumping around" (that would be "rumtschumpe"), but others are more major like no mention of the word "Ordnung" anywhere in the article, which is a term that is fundamental to understanding the Amish. The article talks about teenagers and rumschpringe and seems to suggest that teenagers or young adults who choose not to get baptised ever are eventually shunned, which is not the case. The article could perhaps talk somewhat about the government and the Amish, esp. post 9-11, since U.S. security measures and the Amish Ordnung often conflict. There is no mention of the Amish history in Europe. I also don't like the references that non-Mennonites don't understand the Amish. A lot of Mennonites don't understand themselves let alone the Amish, especially those who don't live beside the Amish, and of course some non-Mennonites would understand them just fine. Just my 25 cents worth. Stettlerj 01:43, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

holmes morton

the doctor who runs the clinic for special children is named holmes morton, not morton holmes. i fixed it. (it appeared both ways in this article.)

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