Talk:Kevin Clash

Captain Kangaroo

A photo in this entry shows and is captioned as him with a puppet from Captain Kangaroo. Yet there is no mention at all in the article about any involvement with that show. If he was involved somehow, it certainly should be mentioned. If not, then the photo is misleading (and confusing, why would he pose with a puppet he had nothing to do with?). Can anyone out there clarify this and update the article? Russeasby 04:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

He was involved with Captain Kangaroo for a few years at the same time as Great Space Coaster Timekeeper 18:56, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Kevin Clash in The News American.jpg

Image:Kevin Clash in The News American.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 22:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Kevinclashelmo.jpg

Image:Kevinclashelmo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 14:29, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:KC-GreatSpaceCoaster.jpg

Image:KC-GreatSpaceCoaster.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 18:03, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Wondering why he is described as "African American" and not simply "American." Biographies of white actors are described as American, not "European American". Why is it necessary to add "African"?

lgbt

I hate to quote tmz & salon.com but http://www.tmz.com/2012/11/12/elmo-kevin-clash-sex-sesame-street-underage-boy-allegations/ so why did someone remove the lgbt category? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paranoid Android1208 (talk • contribs) 18:11, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

See WP:BLPCAT: "Category names do not carry disclaimers or modifiers, so the case for each content category must be made clear by the article text and its reliable sources. Categories regarding religious beliefs or sexual orientation should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief or orientation in question, and the subject's beliefs or sexual orientation are relevant to their public life or notability, according to reliable published sources". AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:15, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

And see also the discussion at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Kevin Clash. If allegations of improper behaviour are "unsubstantiated", it is highly questionable as to whether they should be included at all. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:27, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

It's also worth noting that we don't categorize people as LGBT on the basis of allegations of a sexual relationship with someone of the same sex — we do so only when a person has publicly stated in their own words that they identify themselves as being LGBT. For the purposes of that category tree, we care about a person's social and cultural and political identity as a member of the LGBT community, and not about what sexual acts do or don't get their naughty bits excited. Which means that even if allegations about a person's sex life turn out to be true, we still don't categorize them as being LGBT until they've spoken publicly about identifying themselves as LGBT.

We care about the identity, not the raw physiological response — because even if a guy does have a sexual relationship with another guy, we can't actually prove with any degree of verifiability that he wasn't laying back and fantasizing about Kim Kardashian the whole time. Even guys who consider themselves straight have been known to "experiment" on occasion, and it's not our place to make pronouncements about whether such a guy is deluding himself or not — because what we care about is the presence or absence of a cultural identification with the LGBT community. So no matter what you can or can't prove about who he's actually having sex with, he can't be categorized as LGBT until you can actually add a source which verifiably documents that he verbally identifies himself as a member of the gay community. Bearcat (talk) 19:32, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Yup. And we don't categorise people as LGBT unless their sexual orientation is "relevant to their public life or notability, according to reliable published sources" either. There is nothing whatsoever inherently notable in being gay or bisexual and an actor... AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:36, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, technically speaking, all that's necessary to make it "relevant to their public life or notability" is the act of speaking about it on the record. The textbook example here is Anderson Cooper — although he was already openly gay in his personal life, for a long time he just didn't explicitly address that in a public statement. The fact that he's gay wasn't relevant or notable at that time, even though plenty of people already knew — but it became relevant and notable once he actually spoke about it on the public record.

The distinction here is because there are a lot more shades of grey for LGBT public figures now than there were 10 or 20 years ago. Where it once was the case that people were either closeted or out with not a hell of a lot in between, nowadays you see a lot of people who are out in their personal lives and don't make any special effort to hide it in their public ones, but still can't really be categorized as gay until they explicitly make a statement that officially puts it on the record. A lot of people knew about Anderson Cooper long before he made it official — same for Jim Parsons, Matt Bomer, Zachary Quinto, etc. — but because the facts weren't explicitly verifiable in reliable sources, we still couldn't categorize them as being gay until they actually made their official public "coming out" statements. And there's a similar problem with Nate Silver right now, too — in that while there are numerous sources out there in which a third party describes him as "openly gay", nobody's yet been able to find one in which he describes himself that way. Occam's razor certainly suggests that the sources are correct, for numerous reasons (he would have objected to being described that way if he weren't, he wouldn't have let himself be photographed and interviewed for Out magazine's "100 influential gay people" list if he weren't, etc.) — but until we can actually verify that the sources are definitely correct rather than just probably, we still have to err on the side of caution no matter how ridiculous that may seem. Bearcat (talk) 20:01, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

He has now self-identified as gay. [1] Rob T Firefly (talk) 19:56, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Given that statement, I now think there probably is a way that the issue can be addressed in this article without overstepping WP:BLP, since we now have both sides of the story. What I'd caution is that we shouldn't rush things or sensationalize the matter. For the time being, I'm going to temporarily editprotect the article against anonymous IP edits, so that established editors who are more familiar with Wikipedia policy can work it out fairly and objectively. Bearcat (talk) 20:11, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Can anyone demonstrate that Clash's sexual orientation is "relevant to [his] public life or notability, according to reliable published sources"? He's not notable for being gay... AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:31, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

I think it's reasonable to say that he NOW is! MfG Paranoid Android1208 (talk) 20:51, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

loosing your job because you come out as gay is certainly relevant to his public life. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

He isn't fired (yet)...and if he is, it's because of the age difference (not legal, no matter what the gender of the accuser is)...not his sexuality Paranoid Android1208 (talk) 20:56, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

The fact of having made a public statement to the media confirming that he identifies as gay is, in and of itself, sufficient to demonstrate notability. As I already explained above, once a person has confirmed their sexuality on the public record, we don't require any complex justifications beyond that. Bearcat (talk) 22:11, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

"I am a gay man. I have never been ashamed of this or tried to hide it, but felt it was a personal and private matter. I had a relationship with the accuser. It was between two consenting adults and I am deeply saddened that he is trying to characterize it as something other than what it was. I am taking a break from Sesame Workshop to deal with this false and defamatory allegation." - Kevin Clash's Statement to CNN (added to CNN's Blog at 18:55, 12 November 2012 (UTC) [User: CoasterGhost|CoasterGhost]] (talk) - Section added at 20:37, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

also at ABC [2]. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Jesus! I'm glad it's the internet... because you my friends have wasted a lot of ink..and your own time o_O
BTW things like this really are a real pain in the *** for everyone involved and are the main reason why wp has some problems in terms of editorship...so, thanks a lot! -.- Paranoid Android1208 (talk) 20:41, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

I think that you're under the mistaken impression that Wikipedia is under a deadline and that articles need to have the most up to date information in them as fast as possible. This isn't a newspaper; it's an encyclopedia. More importantly, there are some serious WP:BLP concerns here, so calm down, and have some tea. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 21:06, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Jauerback is correct. In a case like this, it's much more important that Wikipedia get it right than it is that we get it fast. Bearcat (talk) 22:11, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Apart from there beeing no indication of my supposed obsession with a deadline (who makes notes to make a Kevin Clash edit in a week from now?) I was just pointing the Korinthenkackerei (btw: the english article is no translation of the term), which is detrimental to the project itself...expecting that some are at least sometimes loose in their skin when it comes to application of wp-rules, is not in itself a crazy thing to do (btw: wp is ALSO no court of law...so please don't take IT too seriously) Paranoid Android1208 (talk) 22:23, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, you complained that people weren't jumping on the allegations fast enough for your liking. You may not have used the specific word "deadline", but the substance of what you were saying was essentially that we had to get it into the article right away without regard to the sensitivity of the matter. Bearcat (talk) 23:25, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

It's funny how these BLP concerns and protection issues don't come up when it's, say, a Christian minister or Republican politician who is being accuse of things like this... JayHubie (talk) 22:56, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Actually they do. Would you like to know how many times people tried to add Category:LGBT people from the United States to both Ted Haggard and Larry Craig, to name just two examples, even while both were still publicly denying those allegations? And, just for the record, to this day both of those men are still not actually categorized as being LGBT. That proves my earlier point yet again — no matter what they may have done behaviourally in their specific scandal incidents, they still haven't publicly claimed any identification with the LGBT community, and thus we can't categorize them as such no matter what we may think their behaviour implies. Bearcat (talk) 23:01, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

So, the accuser recanted his story the very next day. Now do y'all get why we need to be careful with stuff like this? Bearcat (talk) 23:43, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

So is his child biologically his?

He said he's gay but he's got children. What is someone who has had sex with a woman to the point of having a child, but claims to have been in a gay sexual relationship called? Is he bisexual? Is the child biologically his?