Talk:Jats

Another picture of a Jat Thakur of the 18th century

a Thakur for comparison purposes (as all pictures are of the 18th century), most of the current ("openly licensed") pictures chosen for the article only portray the financially/economically/politically mediocre Jats of the time.

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00routesdata/1800_1899/aligarhmao/town/people9.jpg

From Aligarh, ruled by Thunea Jats for quite some time I believe (though I will soon copy quotes to back that statement up), however, the picture of should do for now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JagNatha (talk • contribs) 22:10, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Please can you post why you are qualified to comment on this page - i'm only looking to engage with people who have studied, in some respect, the history of the Jatt people.

No recycling please.

196.215.215.8 (talk) 15:31, 21 September 2012 (UTC)Jatt

Important Scholars who identified Massagetaeans as "Great Jits or Jats" of Asia

Important Scholars who identified Jat people as Massagetaeans:

• Sir John Marshall, (Former Director-General of the Archaeological Survey of India) wrote: "These Scythian invaders came principally from the three great tribes of Massagetae (great Jats), Sacaraucae, and Dahae (still exists as a Jat clan of Punjab)[1], whose home at the beginning of the second century B.C. was in the country between the Caspian sea (sea) and the Jaxartes river (Central Asia).[2]

• Professor Tadeusz Sulimirski wrote: "The evidence of both the ancient authors and the archaeological remains point to a massive migration of Sacian (Sakas) & Massagetae (great Jats) tribes from the Syr Darya Delta (Central Asia) by the middle of the second century B.C. Some of the Syr Darya tribes; they also invaded North India.[3]

• James Francis Katherinus Hewitt wrote: "Further evidence both of the early history and origin of the race of Jats, or Getae, is given by the customs and geographical position of another tribe of the same stock, called the Massagetae, or great (massa) Getae."[4]

• Syed Muhammad Latif wrote: "A considerable portion of the routed army of the Scythians settled in the Punjab, and a race of them, called Nomardy, inhabited the country on the west bank of the Indus (river). They are described as a nomadic tribe, living in wooden houses, after the old Scythian fashion, and settling where they found sufficient pasturage. A portion of these settlers, the descendants of Massagetae, were called Getes, from whom sprung the modern Jats."[5]

• Arnold Joseph Toynbee wrote: "It may not be fantastic to conjecture that the Tuetonic-speaking Goths and Gauts of Scandinavia may have been descended from a fragment of the same Indo-European-speaking tribe as the homonymous Getae and Thyssagetae and Massagetae of the Eurasian Steppe who are represented today by the Jats of the Panjab."[6]

• Arnold Joseph Toynbee, also wrote: "It had been carried from the Oxus-Jaxartes Basin into the Indus Basin by the Massagetae themselves, together with their tribal name (the Jats), in their Volkerwander- ung in the second century BC"[7]

• George Rawlinson has also identified the Massagetaeans as "Great Jits or Jats" of Asia.[8][9][10][11][17]

• Satya Shrava wrote: "The Jats are none other than the Massagetae (Great Getae) mentioned in Diodorus as an off-spring of the ancient Saka tribe.... a fact now well-known."[12][13]

• Sir Richard Francis Burton wrote: "The Massagetae (greater Jats or Goths) are opposed to the Thyssa (or lesser) Getae, and both used the sagaris."[14]

References:

(1) Dahiya, B.S., Jats: The Ancient Rulers, Sterling Publishers Pvt. Ltd., New Delhi, India, 1980, pp. 23.

(2) Sir John Marshall, (Sir, Hon. Fellow of King's College, Cambridge University, and formerly Director-General of Archaeology in India), A Guide to Taxila, Cambridge University Press, London, 1960, pp. 24.

(3) Professor T. Sulimirski, The Sarmatians, Praeger Publishers, New York, 1970, pp. 113-114.

(4) Hewitt, J. F., The Ruling Races of Prehistoric Times in India, South-Western Asia and Southern Europe, Archibald Constable & Co., London, 1894, pp. 481-487.

(5) Latif, S. M., History of the Panjab, Reprinted by Progressive Books, Lahore, Pakistan, 1984, first published in 1891, pp. 56.

(6) Toynbee, Arnold Joseph (1939). A Study of History. Volume 2. London: Oxford University Press. p. 435.

(7) Royal Institute of International Affairs; Toynbee, Arnold Joseph (1962). A Study of History (2 ed.). Volume 10. Oxford University Press. p. 54.

(8) Rawlinson, George (1873). The sixth great Oriental monarchy: or, The geography, history, & antiquities of Parthia. Longmans, Green, and co. p. 118

(9) Rawlinson, George (1893). The story of Parthia. G. P. Putnam's sons. p. 110.

(10) Rawlinson, George (2007). Parthia. Cosimo, Inc. p. 110. ISBN 160206136X.

(11) Rawlinson, George (2010). The Seven Great Monarchies of the Ancient Eastern World: Or, The History, Geography and Antiquities of Chaldæa, Assyria, Babylon, Media, Persia, Parthia, and Sassanian Or New Persian Empire. Volume 3. Nottingham Society. p. 66.

(12) Shrava, Satya (1981). The Sakas in India (revised ed.). New Delhi: Pranava Prakashan, 1981.

(13) http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/common_origin_croats_serbs_jats.php

(14) Burton, Richard Francis (Sir) (2008). The Book of the Sword. Cosimo, Inc. p. 90. ISBN 1605204366, 9781605204369.

— 11:39, 9 August 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.211.84.74 (talk)

Viva La Truth  !! — 05:42, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I am unsure what it is that you expect us to do with the above information but note that )a) Dahiya is a fringe theorist and (b) almost all of the other sources that you list are way too old to be reliable and some - notably, Toynbee - were not even primarily Indic scholars. Can you find some more recent sources, please. - Sitush (talk) 05:44, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

• Weer Rajendra Rishi wrote: "Some of the Indian writers including Rahul Sankrityayan and Ujagar Singh Mahil in his book "Antiquity of Jat Race" say that Jats inhabiting the northern India are the descendants of Massagetae, or Malta (great) Getae or Jat."[15]

Reference:

(15) Rishi, Weer Rajendra (1982). India & Russia: linguistic & cultural affinity. Roma Publications. p. 95.

— 14:26, 14 August 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.207.61.19 (talk)

Hm, neither a linguist nor a Marxist travel writer seem likely to be great sources for this point. But who is this linguist? Are Roma Publications an academic press, a private publisher, or what? There are various wild theories regarding origins of various Indic groups - connecting them with Russia, Hungary and other places that, on the face of it, seem pretty unlikely. Some claim affinity with the Roma/"Gypsy" community but I seem to recall that was also deemed to be a fringe theory a few months ago. As with those theories, the one that you mention is going to need a rock-solid source in my opinion. - Sitush (talk) 16:21, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

• Steven M. Collins also advocates that the Massagetaeans are none other than the "Great Jits or Jats" of Asia.[16]

Reference:

(16) Collins, Steven M. (2005). Israel's Tribes Today (illustrated ed.). Book 4 of Lost tribes of Israel, Steven M. Collins.Bible Blessings. ISBN 0972584935, 9780972584937.

— 13:25, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Mr. Collins @ Canadian British-Israel Association. — 13:41, 20 August 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.200.62.233 (talk)

I really do think that you may not understand our reliable sources policy.Collins looks highly suspect to me: what qualifications etc does he have? Has he ever been peer reviewed by recognised academics? Why is his publisher reliable? His own website has the appearance of of representing a fringe theorist/self-publicist. - Sitush (talk) 13:59, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

(17) Rawlinson, George (2012). The Seven Great Monarchies Of The Ancient Eastern World, Vol 6. (of 7): Parthia The History, Geography, And Antiquities Of Chaldaea, Assyria, Babylon, Media, Persia, Parthia, And Sassanian or New Persian Empire, With Maps and Illustrations. Tredition. ISBN 3847205145, 9783847205142.

— 07:09, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

This is a modern reprint of an old source which is in the public domain. You have been told umpteen times that old sources such as this are not appropriate. I am not going to respond further to your suggestions unless they comply with our policies. - Sitush (talk) 07:19, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

• Balbir Singh Dhillon also advocates that the Massagetaeans are none other than the "Great Jits or Jats" of Asia.[18]

Reference:

(18) Dhillon, Balbir Singh (1994). History and study of the Jats: with reference to Sikhs, Scythians, Alans, Sarmatians, Goths, and Jutes (illustrated ed.). Canada: Beta Publishers. ISBN 1895603021, 9781895603026.

— 13:01, 25 August 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.207.58.5 (talk) Please look at this page describing Dhillon. He's an engineer. His degrees are in engineering. He is clearly no authority on Indian history. Not WP:RS. Qwyrxian (talk)

Because: "Until Lions have their historians, tales of the hunt shall always glorify the hunter!" — 13:32, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 1 September 2012

Requesting to add some information in the History section:

Professor Tadeusz Sulimirski wrote: "The evidence of both the ancient authors and the archaeological remains point to a massive migration of Sacian (Sakas) & Massagetae (great Jats) tribes from the Syr Darya Delta (Central Asia) by the middle of the second century B.C. Some of the Syr Darya tribes; they also invaded North India. { Professor T. Sulimirski, The Sarmatians, Praeger Publishers, New York, 1970, pp. 113-114. }

Please add, .... scholars like Tadeusz Sulimirski have identified the Asian Jats in Continuity of the Massagetaeans.

I have gone through the article written for him on Wikipedia.

Also, I have read WP:RS and WP:BIO + WP:PROF, and I am confident that Tadeusz Sulimirski succesfully meets the criteria to be recognized as reputable source.

The article for Tadeusz Sulimirski on Wikipedia.

Thanks!

117.212.47.184 (talk) 06:46, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Before I even consider this, 1) is that parenthesis part in the original, or did you add that? 2) do you have any evidence that he was referring to the same people mentioned in this article, or was he just breaking down the etymology (Mass = great, Getae transliterates to Jat)? I guess what I'm asking is, please tell me more about what he said. If this is literally the only mention in the book, I don't think we have enough context to know if this refers to the same people. Is this book available online, or can you provide a copy of the page surrounding it?

Oh, please note that I'm not going to help you do anything if you continue do violate WP:RS. You were told quite clearly in the section above that many of those are not reliable sources, yet you added them to Massagetae. Qwyrxian (talk) 16:50, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

First things first, I have read WP:RS, and I hope that you are fully aware about the practical use of the policy WP:Balance.

1. The quote from the book itself — "The evidence of both the ancient authors and the archaeological remains point to a massive migration of Sacian (Sakas)/Massagetan ("great" Jat) tribes from the Syr Daria Delta (Central Asia) by the middle of the second century B.C. Some of the Syr Darian tribes; they also invaded North India." — which's copy-pasted from here. After-all, What matters is the the academic potential of Professor Tadeusz Sulimirski only.

2. Book's full viewis not available to me, but guess I can help it! As is clearly visible, that Mr. Sulimirski is advocating that the Jats are in continuity of the Massagetaeans. Needs to type a lot to make you understand, guess! Fair, enough! This way of writing (expression) has been adopted by many e.g. George Rawlinson (link for verification); now people may question, 'was Mr. Rawlinson referring to the same people mentioned in this article, or was he just breaking down the etymology (Mass = great, Getae transliterates to Jat)'; the answer is he certainly was referring to the same people mentioned in this article; the proof is Mr. Collins' writing, "When describing the Sacae Scythian tribes who migrated from the Caspian Sea region in the second century, B.C., to settle within the Parthian Empire, historian George Rawlinson notes that the greatest tribe, the Massagetae, was also named the "great Jits, or Jats." I am confirming you is that such ways of expression (may be a bit weird) are not uncommon, and I am only asking you to pick the point that Mr. Sulimirski made. Fair enough! Again, asking just to consider the academic potential of Professor Tadeusz Sulimirski only, that too after being aware of WP:Balance ( good policy ) [ link to verify Mr. Collins' written text (interpretation) - inserted later to cease doubt ]

3. Ok! Actually, no one on the talk page Talk:Massagetae replied so I thought that maybe the admin or reviewer of that page agreed with their research-work, b'coz I still "know" that there are some good refs. You may visit Indo-Scythians, the admin or reviewer has accepted Jats in the continuity of Scythians in India, but this is absent from this main article on Jats. Such a conflict between admins or reviewers, definitely would invite such moves, though I would refrain from doing this. Now, tell me that which admin is at fault? Wait, let me first made the revert and then type more — done!

One thing Mr. Qwyrxian — I am confident that Tadeusz Sulimirski does meets WP:RS and WP:BIO + WP:PROF. Please note that this edit request has been made to consider the academic potential of Professor Tadeusz Sulimirski only. — 117.200.51.62 (talk) 05:18, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Tadeusz Sulimirski is a reputable Realiable Source @ Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard — Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Tadeusz_Sulimirski_.26_Rahul_Sankrityayan. Therefore, please answer the edit request. Thanks! — 117.200.59.19 (talk) 04:20, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Alright, given that info, I think we can add something to the article. How about, in History, right after we "community which had its origins in pastoralism in the lower Indus valley of Sindh.", we add, "Tadeusz Sulimirski has said that one of the precursors to the Jats are the Massagetaeans." I think that matches up the source you've provided, since it's clear that Sulimirski isn't saying that all Jats are descended from the Massagetaeans (I'm sure no scholar would claim that all of the Jats came from any lineage, given how this article itself explains that they have multiple sources). Qwyrxian (talk) 05:08, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Did Mr. Sulimirski said any such thing the way you're saying! Is he talking about any specific Jat clans - NO. He's simply mentioned the name of the ethnic group — "Jat". I too, understand the gravity of what you're saying & asking! I didn't started well, but I really want to co-operate & avoid WP:Edit War, that's why I moved to WP:RSN — specially highlighted WP:Balance. I want a full-fledged use of WP:Balance over the descent of "Jat", because - Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard — Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Tadeusz_Sulimirski_.26_Rahul_Sankrityayan.

And, there are a number of scholars that agrees Sulimirski's views, but I have to move to WP:RSN first, to say more, coz we may not agree over their academic potential's conclusion.

The way you've "reacted", I doubt your sincerity over WP:NPOV & your awareness about WP:Balance! Either practically WP:Balance over the descent of "Jat" or avoid answering this edit request? But, please reply fast. Fair enough! — 117.200.59.19 (talk) 06:58, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Okay, first of all, don't tell anyone on Wikipedia to "reply fast"--you did the same thing at WP:RSN. Everyone here is a volunteer, and we answer when we can and want to. And many issues on Wikipedia take days, weeks, or months to work out. On the actual issue, I really don't understand what you're saying with why my sentence is wrong. As I think you realized, we can't say "Scholars such as" without other reliable sources, but should you produce other reliable sources, we can reconsider that. I changed the rest of your original sentence because it literally does not make sense in Standard Written English. You can't "identify" a group in the "continuity" of another group--that has no meaning. In fact, you can't even say that a group "has" a "continuity". But let me try again. "Tadeusz Sulimirski said that one of the origins of the Jat people are the Massagetaeans." Or, what about this: "Tadeusz Sulimirski said that the Massagetaeans migrated from the Syr Darya Delta, and that the name "Massagetaean" may be understood to mean "Great Jat"." Is that more accurate? If neither is correct, please explain it to me--they both seem to me to match the quotation you provided, but I fully accept I may not be understanding it in some way (possibly due to lack of context). Qwyrxian (talk) 08:45, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Apology requested for asking to reply fast! But, I also used a "please" too  !

I have explained in {point 2) of my second post in this section, what I am trying to make you realize — {point 2} clearly states that with an interpreted example (fair enough what you asked). I too understand that even the best recognized scholars of all times have used some "weird style of writing", that may not be as helpful to readers as they've thought, guess! I ask you to reconsider Rahul Sankrityayan, who has served as Professor of Indology in 1937-38 & 1947-48 @ University of Leningrad — in case Sitush's view point is not the final verdict.

The best conclusion to this section's discussion (the way it's written) — "There is another school of thought which suggests that a "significant fragment" of Jats "may have" sprung from the ancient Massagetaeans, who settled in northern India." — 117.212.40.110 (talk) 11:45, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

I think we're getting closer. We can't say "significant fragment", because that's not in the source you provided. Sprang is a puffery/metaphoric word, not appropriate for an encyclopedia article. Is this a fair compromise? "Tadeusz Sulimirski said that some of the Jats descended from the ancient Massagetaens, who settled in northern India after migrating away from the Syr Darya Delta." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qwyrxian (talk • contribs) 5 September 2012

I don't wish to get involved in this discussion, but I just wanted to chime in and say that since this issue is actively being discussed, I have set the {{edit semi-protected}} tag to "answered" so it doesn't show up as being an old request. Please continue to work on reaching consensus. Thanks! —KuyaBriBri^Talk 17:55, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Ok! Mr. Qwyrxian, It's a YES. But, I would still suggest — replacing "some of the" in your suggested statement to "a significant proportion" (people can see that the word used by Tadeusz Sulimirski is simply — "Jat", the name of the community)). But, as you are also cooperating fair enough and holds decent experience too — I leave that upto you, fair enough! Please, make the move! Already had enough of it. — 117.200.60.41 (talk) 06:37, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

It is nothing like as clear-cut as is being made out here. I have commented at the RSN thread because I am unsure whether the Indo-Aryan migration] theory is mainstream or fringe. It probably would benefit from a discussion at the WP:FRINGE noticeboard rather than RSN, and probably with a suitably neutral notification being made at WT:INB. Plenty of respected academics nonetheless hold opinions that are dismissed by their peers. - Sitush (talk) 12:23, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

At Wikipedia — people should attempt to avoid rendering judgement themselves, and for the most part defer to the judgement of reliable sources.

Sitush, till there is a world wide consensus over the Origin-Antiquity-Migration of Aryans,Scythians, etc. — please be prepared to proceed by following WP:NPOV & WP:Balance.

I have actively participated in the discussion & now I would like to leave things upto the sincerity of the admins or reviewers working on this article. Thanks! — 117.207.56.161 (talk) 05:54, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

The point behind the template is for a non-confirmed user to draw attention to a requested edit. You have our attention, and we're discussing it. It is common practice to set "answered=yes" once significant discussion is under way. Second, please note that neither admins nor reviewers have any special say in the matter--content is decided by editors working together in collaboration. At this point, we need to follow up on the matters that Sitush has raised. The question is, what evidence do we have that this is a widely held view--or, at least, that a substantial minority hold it? Qwyrxian (talk) 06:15, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Arbitrary heading

I am new to this but was appalled at the article on Jat People as demeaning and derogatory.Read the whole article with an unbiased eye and note the words suggesting throughout the article that Jat People are from a low form of life !!! words such as "non - elite", "traditionally involved in peasantry ", " claim higher social status " (12)" traditionally non elite " (R),"the term "Jat" had become loosely synonymous with "peasant,"[19] "During much of this time, non-elite tillers and pastoralists, such as the Jats or Ahirs, were part of a social spectrum that blended only indistinctly into the elite landowning classes at one end, and the menial or ritually polluting classes at the other.[21]" "peasant rebellions," scholars, such as Muzaffar Alam, have pointed out that small local landholders, or zemindars, often led these uprisings.[23] The Sikh and Jat rebellions were led by such small local zemindars, who had close association and family connections with each other and with the peasants under them, and who were often armed.[24]These communities of rising peasant-warriors were not well-established Indian castes,[25]This was a society where Brahmins were few and male Jats married into the whole range of lower agricultural and entrepreneurial castes. A kind of tribal nationalism animated them rather than a nice calculation of caste differences expressed within the context of Brahminical Hindu state.[27](other historians assert a Sansi Caste lineage to Maharaja Ranjit Singh[46])( THIS IS A DIRECT ATTACK ON THE JAT MAHARAJAS LINEAGE), Some specific clans of Jat people are classified as Other Backward Castes in some states, e.g.Jats of Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, Delhi,[54][55][56] Muslim Jats in Gujarat[57]The Hindu varna system is unclear on Jat status within the caste system. Some sources state that Jats are regarded as Kshatriyas[71] or "degraded Kshatriyas" Another author reports that the varna status of the Jats improved over time, with the Jats starting in the untouchable/chandala varna during the eighth century, changing to shudra status by the 11th century, and with some Jats striving for zamindar status after the Jat rebellion of the 17th century.[73]

This is an affront to decent Jats worldwide and with an author who is biased in his view should not be allowed to represent such an honorable and culturally proud people.For decency sake this article needs to be removed in whole or millions of Jat Sikhs will be up in arms once they realize they have been demeaned on Wikipedia.Shaanjaan (talk) 06:01, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

I think that a read of our Five Pillars might be of use. We base our content on reliable sources and present the information gleaned from them in a neutral manner. Or, at least, that is our intent. - Sitush (talk) 09:08, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

well, echoing the same thoughts as talk. With matters relating to "caste" and "varna", we need reliable sources. Funny thing is, most Jats today are either Sikhs or Arya Samaji. I doubt whether that part is relevant.Gagandeep (talk) 17:54, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Specifically what do you find Unreliable with the sourcing? D.B. Miller is published by Oxford University Press, Dr Khanna teaches anthropology at Oregon State University. What's so wrong with these academics that we should contradict them based on an anonymous person on the internet? If you have reputable sources (not caste partisan sites, Facebook, blogs) that contradict these academics, by all means present them. MatthewVanitas (talk) 18:42, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

• Hey guys; I just got an OTRS query similar to this. If I'm understanding correctly, the term "non-elite" or "peasants" was one applied by the British authorities in the 19th century. Would it be acceptable to just make this more clear in the lead? Or, well, not mention it in the lead :). A term used by one administration in one century for a group that has existed since the 8th century maybe doesn't deserve so much prominence. This isn't me saying "we must because ANGRY PERSON" so much as trying to play devil's advocate. Apologies if I've misunderstood where the terminology comes from. Ironholds (talk) 08:44, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

• The term is a modern one and has little to do with the British Raj. The Raj actually adopted the varna classification system and added a few of their own, eg: "criminal tribes" and "martial races". The elite/non-elite is an attempt by modern sociologists to move away from the stigma and confusion of varna, and modern sources also refer to peasants etc. Thus, we are actually emphasising the modern terminology in the lead and this seems just dandy to me. I think that you are being led astray by one of the many members of Indian castes etc who want to whitewash anything that is perceived a being less than honourable. - Sitush (talk) 09:40, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

• In that case, could we make clear that it's a modern term? Surely there's an article on the subject, if it's a common sociological classification system? Ironholds (talk) 11:09, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

• I think WP:DICTDEF would apply. Honestly, this term is used across countless articles and means exactly what it says. It is a phrase, not a construct like varna. I can pretty much guarantee you that the OTRS message had as its aim the removal of the term in order to promote an alleged, but unsourced, elite status ... because that is what happens on caste articles such as this and it is to a substantial degree why WP:GS/Caste was introduced. But I'll let others weigh in with their opinions. - Sitush (talk) 11:34, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

• I don't know what the OTRS says, but I do have quite a lot of experience of exactly the kind of things Sitush is talking about. Many castes/tribes/groups within the varna system were classified as lower status (I'm greatly oversimplifying a complex system, I know), in ways that are horribly discriminatory by modern thought. There are also modern terms (like elite/non-elite, "backward" etc) used by sociologists and by the Indian government, partly to document historical fact as to classifications that actually did take place, and partly to try to rectify and move away from the old discriminatory systems. Unfortuntely, there seem to be a number of people who want to address varna/caste/classification injustice not by trying to bring it to an end, but by rewriting history to deny their caste was ever lowly classified, and to fabricate high status classification that never existed. But they never provide reliable sources - because there are none. And if we were to accept every such claim, everyone in India would be a warrior or a king, and there would be no farmers, manual labourers, etc. Instead of taking the honest "My caste was classified lowly, but that was unjust" approach, they go for "My caste is descended from warriors and kings" nonsense (and some of them even claim descent from gods!). Trying to rewrite history in the way they want would be akin to rewriting South African history to say that black Africans were never discriminated against, but were, instead, always the ruling class. These things should be discussed here on the talk page, out in the open, based on reliable sources. Taking that approach has failed many times (as you can see in the talk history of any caste article), but it has failed for good reasons - and this has led to many ways to try to circumvent our proper procedures, including organised socking, harrassment and personal attacks on the editors who have made massive strides in turning these caste articles from appalling caste-glorification pieces into encyclopedic and well-sourced articles, the same against admins who have helped to fend off these attacks, etc. And you can see the massive support for the discretionary sanctions that are now applicable to people acting disruptively in this area. As I say, I haven't seen the OTRS, but I hope this provides some useful background to the issue. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:00, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

• It does, yep; thanks for clearing this up :). Ironholds (talk) 15:16, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Arbitrary heading 2

Can we start a section on sources of information - there seem to be four main sources so far: Punjabi - mainly Jatt Western - mainly English Middle Eastern - mainly muslim 'Indian' - mainly non punjabi bamans Scientific - DNA

196.215.215.8 (talk) 15:37, 21 September 2012 (UTC)JATT

Why would we want to do this? Wikipedia is not sectarian. - Sitush (talk) 15:40, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 16 October 2012

There is contradiction between your two articles " origin of Jats" and "Jat people". The content in "origin of Jats" is more valid as it has all the references starting from the Vedas along with shlokas. However in the article titled "Jat people" the few sentences such as " non-elite tilers and herders" do not appear true. According to the article" Jat people" Jats took to weapons in 17 century after Mughals, which is not correct. In your article "origin of Jats" they are defined as the warriors and rulers since the vedic period. There is evidence of Jat kingdoms such as "Jaglistan" before the mughal invasion. Jats were the people who offered resistance to foriegn invaders. However not every Jat was a king. Hence those who were not in the army or during time of peace were mainly involved in farming. Unfortunately, the have not been represented properly in history as it has been written by people who joined hands with invaders, foriegn mercenaries, and Jats were the people who never compromised, fought for their rights and Land. This community has brought glory to our nation in field of sports and defence. I want that wikipedia should see the details, edit the line" non-elite tilers and herders" and rather start the article from the past as described in "Origin of Jats" as it is sending wrong information to the world. rsingh209.254.249.186 (talk) 15:33, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Please could you read the thread slightly above this one - link. It discusses the issues relating to the need for reliable sources and the problems of POV pushing by caste members etc. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 15:35, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Citations

hey there! does all the sources cited in the article met WP:BIO, WP:PROF, WP:HISTRS, and WP:Reliable ?

If yes, would any edit request made away by citing different pages from the books (and sources) mentioned in the articles be straight away accepted (and answered as ok), or there will then be initiated a consensus ?

If no, then please remove the sources !

One in question is -- Jindal, Mangal sen (1992). History of Origin of Some Clans in India. Sarup & Sons. pp. 17, 36. ISBN 81-85431-08-6; but after your reply we can go on with the issue ! -- 122.173.208.92 (talk) 09:37, 23 November 2012 (UTC)