Talk:Right-to-work law

Dates?

I was just wondering when the states with RtW laws passed them (at least the years). JKeck (talk) 04:32, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

A quick look finds of the 24 states with RtW laws, seven of those are incorporated into the state's constitution, either at initial ratification or as an amendment. Information I have so far is: Arizona (Constitution, 1912, State Constitution Article 25), Arkansas (Constitution, 1947, Amendment 34), Florida (Constitution, 1968, Article 2, Section 6), Indiana (2012, state law), Michigan (2012, state law), and Kansas (Constitution, 1958, Article 15, Section 12). Aneah|talk _to ^me 23:35, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Dubious reference(s)

I noticed this reference: Campbell, Simon. "Right-to-Work vs Forced Unionism" links to a site that does not seem very authoritative. The "company" that runs the site has only a president, no employees and appears to be the work of a parent whose children were affected by a teacher strike:(ref)Campbell, Simon. "About Us". Retrieved 14 November 2012.(endref)

Simon is a public school parent of three children in the Pennsbury school district, Bucks County. Simon's children were among the 11,500 children forced out of school during the 21-day Pennsbury teacher strike in November 2005. The average Pennsbury teacher salary at the time of the strike ranked #8 out of 501 school districts in Pennsylvania (top 2%).

My question is does this reference fall under the category of WP:BLOGS? If so, obviously it would need to be removed/replaced with an authoritative source. — Safety Cap (talk) 19:44, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the material! Which wasn't your question. It doesn't appear WP:RS. Certainly not "refereed"! Surely a more reliable source can be found which says essentially the same thing (if the article doesn't already do so) without the biased cartoons! Student7 (talk) 21:02, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Inaccurate wage comparisons for right to work/non right to work states

I must inform you that although your wage information (hourly/annual salary) MAY be accurate, the overall wage is NOT included in that finding.

I am a union carpenter with a wage of $29.41 in a NON right-to-work state. I have been through about 6 1/2 years of on and off-the-job training- most of which was paid for by my union and that has been funded by the dues that each member pays while working (instructors must earn a wage and training centers cost money to build and keep running). In ADDITION to my wage, I receive additional benefits to cover healthcare for my family and retirement benefits.

In states that are NOW right-to-work, the employees DO NOT have to pay union dues, but the unions are disappearing. Those employees are now making about $20/hour. They ALSO have to pay for their own insurance and 401k out of THEIR WAGES! This means their take-home pay is SIGNIFICANTLY lower.

Right-to-work is a scam. It means that your company or organization- government or not- is now seeing significant profits while the working class families are deceived into thinking they are making almost as much as before. There is a lot more to the wage on the check if benefits are not included or are in addition to salary. Non-union workers do not realize their families full potentials if they think they are doing better than the union workers who are getting "robbed" by paying dues. Trust me- we're not. I provide a very good life for my children.

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98.224.128.161 (talk) 21:28, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Does have a point about including health care and pension as part of wages. For example, the controversial bailout of General Motors included and average $200/hour of wages, benefits, pensions (I assume with COLA). The worker did not see these as "wages". Student7 (talk) 21:34, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

The comparison chart is worthless since it does not factor in cost of living. Camparing New York and Alabama proves nothing except wikipedia's ability to create useless charts. 12.190.150.34 (talk) 19:09, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm neither for nor against the chart, but the mere fact that data in a chart isn't inflation-adjusted does not make the data "worthless." Financial analysts use unadjusted data all the time; indeed, most data used by most analysts is NOT inflation adjusted. The user would simply take the data and, where needed, apply an inflation adjustment, if desired. An inflation-adjusted chart could be better than one without the adjustments, but that's a separate issue. Famspear (talk) 19:47, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

By the way, I should have said "cost of living" adjustments (COLAs), not "inflation" adjustments, since COLAs are indeed what my fellow editors are talking about. And the cost of living obviously can indeed vary widely from one locale to another. Famspear (talk) 19:57, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Proponents/Opponents/Comparisons - source versus content

"A February 2011 Economic Policy Institute study found[11] that in right-to-work states both the unemployment rate in 2009 and the cost of living were lower." This is true, but perhaps misleading. The difference in unemployment rate - in 2009 of all years! - was 1%. The cost of living difference was 7.767% or 18.078%, depending on the method used, though both were the same direction. Data also showed that average wages were 16% higher in non-RTW states while mean wages were 14.4% higher in non-RTW states, overall. Little needs to be said about the increase in wages being reflected by the increase in cost of living.

While the Opponents portion mentions the wage difference to some extent, judging from the figures quoted here and in the Calculations section, it seems misleading. The Calculations section reflects considerably different numbers than the source. Neither may be in error, I do not know as of this date. -68.97.130.80 (talk) 03:10, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

The cost of living is higher because some of the non-RTW states which on the whole are much more urban. Unions or not, the cost of living will be far lower in South Dakota than in New York or California. Most of the states with RTW laws have cheap real estate. Rural states have cheaper infrastructure (a four-lane expressway in rural South Dakota is built for connecting places outside the state and is far more than necessary for local use, but it is wholly inadequate for northeastern New Jersey) and lower costs of public services. Urban areas have to pay cops well to keep them from becoming tempted to moonlight for gangsters and teachers well enough that they don't use their talents for something more lucrative. Small towns rarely have the high-paying alternatives. The only RTW state with exorbitant real-estate costs are likely Florida, Georgia (Atlanta), Louisiana (New Orleans), and Virginia. If Hawaii were RTW it would still have exorbitant costs for real estate, infrastructure, motor fuels, and building materials.

The big difference may be whether the value of a a worker's life is higher in an RTW or a non-RTW state. In an RTW state the employer has far more control over workers, can speed up production at any time, and can get away with more shortcuts on workplace safety. Employers have more power to compel workers to take pay cuts when they find themselves in a negotiating advantage. If the cost of living is lower because labor costs are lower, so are the rewards for work. This may not be so in building trades in which unions are the only sources of apprenticeships, but in manufacturing industries, wages can easily go into a downward spiral. Sure, there may be lower unemployment... perhaps because industrial work becomes much less attractive. People can vote with their feet, so to speak, and choose safer occupations (like retail sales clerking) with lesser pay but much lower chance of death or injury on the job. Economic elites (owners, executives, and big land owners) certainly fare better, and workers get low pay and harsher working conditions. People paid badly almost invariably get treated badly in every aspect of life. Pbrower2a (talk) 07:27, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Add Michigan to the List - 07 December 2012

Amid Union Protests, Michigan GOP Passes Right-to-work Laws; Governor to Sign
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/item/13866-amid-union-protests-mich-gop-passes-right-to-work-laws-gov-to-sign — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vitacore (talk • contribs) 15:21, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

This might explain why there are currently 51 states accounted for in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tscreen1 (talk • contribs) 21:45, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Article contains uncited analysis(original research ?)

In the comparisons section, the last sentence says "Adjusting pay for these regional cost differences results in higher real buying power in most of the right-to-work states." with three citations. Apart from the editorial tone of the wording, the three references are all materials that could be used to support the assertion, but no where make the assertion themselves. This sentence should be removed or appropriate references cited.

Frankly, a lot of the article reads as if a particular stance is being supported, rather than reporting the content of existing external analyses. OriEri (talk) 20:52, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Article Locked Without Sufficient Justification by ScottyWong

The specious reason of "adding unsourced or poorly sourced content" hardly merits a lock, let alone one for about a month. If people misunderstand what a "law" is or is not they can be and have been corrected. Locking the page over semantics does nothing to engender respect for Wikipedia, our system or our values. It will be seen as a political move by the biased and it should be reversed.76.239.25.95 (talk) 19:57, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

The article should be locked until the Michigan story blows over. Also, if you have been following the talk section, someone has been editing in false information. In addition, a reported IP has been deleting the entire "Impact on economies" section. There are plenty of reason to lock this thread for at least a month.

False statement

The sentence "However, this study did not account for unemployment rates, GDP per capita, nor relative costs-of-living in its comparison, which are also considerations in employment studies" under the heading "Studies of economic impact" is false as can be seen by anyone who actually did even a cursory look at the study. Please remove it. Thanks, Furious Style (talk) 20:32, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Fixed. Sepsis II (talk) 23:39, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 11 December 2012 - in regards to critique of economic impact study

Sorry, first time doing this:

In the section "studies of economic impact" on this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law, there is a sentence that reads:

"However, this study did not account for unemployment rates, GDP per capita, nor relative costs-of-living in its comparison, which are also considerations in employment studies[citation needed]."

With no current citation. This is demonstrably false by going to the source of the report in question. http://www.epi.org/page/-/old/briefingpapers/BriefingPaper299.pdf. Tables A2 and A3 clearly show that state cost of living and state unemployment were independent variables used in the regression.

Nfinio (talk) 21:06, 11 December 2012 (UTC)Nick

Why not delete the sentence if it is clearly false? Someone reading the article without going to the source document is going to be convinced that those variables weren't controlled for. I did, until I looked at the source document. It is obvious to any econometrician that those variables should be included as controls, but someone with no knowlege of regressions might think that the [citation needed] is in regards to the claim that those variables are considerations for employment studies.

204.9.158.39 (talk) 22:06, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

The quality of life in Connecticut is better than Oklahoma. Both have about the same population. One has collective bargaining, the other one does not. --JLAmidei (talk) 23:28, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Fixed. Sepsis II (talk) 23:39, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

"Quality of life" is a subjective notion that is varied in actual interpretations. Collective bargaining may or may not have any sort of impact, perceived or otherwise depending upon factors that are taken into consideration. Aneah|talk _to ^me 00:28, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Income per capita: Oklahoma $23,094, Connecticut $36,775.

Median income: Oklahoma $43,225, Connecticut $65,753

Here is a great Wikipedia article. Notice how most of the right-to-work states are at the bottom in terms of income. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_income

Here is a great article showing that right-to-work states are on welfare. http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/08/americas-fiscal-union

--JLAmidei (talk) 03:33, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Great thanks! Because I thought that the calculator at http://www.salary.com was telling me that making $50,000/year in Oklahoma City would have to translate into $68,434 in Hartford, Connecticut to maintain my standard of living. But in the same perspective, the salary difference indicates that employers in Hartford are only willing to pay me $56,737. So basically, my cost of living increases 36.9% while my pay only increases 13.5%. This leaves me with losing $11,697/year in income changes based on moving to Hartford.

Oh, and how about those unemployment rates? I know in OK, it is only 5.3%, but in CT, it is 9.0%. Also, coinciding with that is according to this CNBC slide show http://www.cnbc.com/id/31910310/page/1 Titled the Biggest Welfare States lists 14 entries. Of those 14, only three of them are RtW. If I read the article information correctly, then the article was done in 2010, which is before Indiana and Michigan became RtW. Aneah|talk _to ^me 05:02, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Taft-Hartley act section

The section on the Taft-Hartley act is confusing, informing the reader that closed shops are illegal but not making it clear that agency shops are legal under Taft-Hartley. The impression is given that agency shops are similar to closed shops and thus similarly illegal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.206.47.32 (talk) 21:17, 11 December 2012 (UTC)