Talk:Origin of the Romanians

Removed text

• Romania in Antiquity and in the Early Middle Ages

I'm not sure what point the following two quotations are there to support, so i'm removing them. Please feel free to return them to the article, but please do so in support of some point - don't just dump random quotations into the article for the hell of it! Cheers, Baffle gab1978 (talk) 00:22, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

[Anonymous's] manner is much rather that of a romantic novelist than a historian, and his account of the Conquest of Hungary by the Magyars is replete with exciting and creditable episodes, very few of which can be substantiated from other sources. (...) [His] words (...) give no proof of the presence of Vlachs in Hungary at the Conquest (nor, be it emphasized, of their absence therefrom).

— Macartney, C. A. (1953)

The analysis of several fragments of [the Gesta Hungarorum] has demonstrated that this work is generally credible (...). The reliable data is confirmed by the archaeological evidence or by comparison with other written sources. (...) [The] most important conclusion is that the account about the conquest of [Transylvania] (...) combines data taken from oral traditions with invented facts.

— Madgearu, Alexandru (2005)

• Antiquity and in Early Middle Ages

More apparently out-of-context quotations removed per above:

The towns did not suddenly disappear. They were less peopled and they became ruralized settlements, but the life survived in most cases during the 4th century, and sometimes until the 6th century. (...) The ruralization was in fact a transition period, when elements of typical urban life [stonewalls and the use of mortar] continued to be present. (...) The archaeological evidence shows that the Daco-Roman Christian antiquities dated between 275 and the middle of the 5th century were found in the former towns or camps inhabited by civilians after the retreat of the army (l0 from the total of l4): Alba Iulia-Apulum, Moigrad-Porolissum, Răcari, Sarmizegetusa, Turda-Potaissa, Zlatna-Ampelum (...).

— Madgearu, Alexandru (2004)

One delicate moment for the national narrative is that of the end of the Roman province in AD 271. The withdrawal of the Romans is conceived in such a way that the poor, that is the "autochtons", the majority, the "demographic and economic basis," do not leave (...). (...) The entire archaeological construction of continuity of the local population is based on attributing everything belonging to the Roman tradition - artifacts, coins, Christianity, and so forth - to the "Daco-Romans" (...)."

— Niculescu, Gheorghe A. (2007)

Romanian archaeologists have provisionally identified a number of regional pottery groups, such as the Ipotești-Cândeşti-Ciurel Culture. The pottery groups of the area typically contain an intermixture regarded as representing Slav, "Romanized indigenous" and East Roman elements. The handmade pottery which represent these Early Slavs on the Danube plain differs from that in Moldavia and is somewhat more variable in style than the normal Korchak type of the Ukraine. The "Romanized indigenous" elements are represented (...) by a continuation of some types of handmade ceramic vessels related to the former Romanized Dacian Culture.

— Barford, P. V. (2001)

Baffle gab1978 (talk) 04:39, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

• Romanian language:

Removed because the first's point has already been made and 2nd introduces a point not yet mentioned in text.

The Roman technique of the fast wheel pottery, unknown to the Slavs (...) was preserved in Transylvania, Banat and Crişana (and occasionally in Oltenia and Wallachia) in 8th–9th century settlements. (...) In the same area (...) are attested words of Latin origin like: (...) arină < arena ("sand") (...), which are not used in other regions of Romania. They are concentrated on the territory of the former Roman Dacia, and this can reflect its continuous habitation.

— Madgearu, Alexandru (2005)

Since [Arumanian and Megleno-Romanian] do not betray the influence of Ancient Greek that they should if they had originated where they are spoken at the present, it is safe to assume that the speakers of these languages had moved to the south of the [Balkans] (...).

— Mišeska Tomić, Olga (2006)

Baffle gab1978 (talk) 20:22, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Ciugud culture

By searching google book, I have found only one source (the one cited in the article) on the existence of the so-called "Ciugud culture". Are there other sources proving its existence? It is also unusual in the 2010s, that an archaeological culture is identified with a specific people (in this case, with Romanians). Why is it so clear that the bearers of the culture spoke the Romanian language?Borsoka (talk) 01:48, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Numismatic and silver hoards of Cârțișoara and Făgăraş

How can hoards of coints prove the presence of a specific nation? Do they contain coins with text written in the Romanian language? Borsoka (talk) 01:52, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I doubt that any contributor here is an expert in numismatics/archeology. Ioan-Aurel Pop is a reliable author, so the information should be simply presented in the form the author puts it Raysdiet (talk) 12:01, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I fully agree with you that we are not experts on this fields. However, WP is strange community: we do not accept POVs as facts just because HE or SHE states it. If Ioan-Aurel Pop is the only author who assumes that silver coins prove the presence of a specific nation in medieval Transylvania, this fact should be emphasized. Borsoka (talk) 16:19, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Excuse me, but which wiki rule affirms that a statement must be supported by at least 2 reliable sources? A single reliable source is enough. Raysdiet (talk) 21:35, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

There is no such requirement. However, if Ioan-Aurel Pop is the only historian who connected those coin hoards and Vlachs, it is important to emphasize that this is his POV and it is not widely accepted by historians. Borsoka (talk) 02:57, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

The idea of the "Ciugud culture" is exclusively proposed by Thomas Nagler in the book cited in the article (which was edited by him and Ioan-Aurel Pop). The National Archaeological Record of Romania has no knowledge of the existence of this culture or sites at the village Ciugud [1]. Borsoka (talk) 08:20, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

National Archaeological Record of Romania is updated by archaeologists and it is not always up-to-date nor complete. Your statement related to RAN can be true but it cannot be used as an argument against acceptance.Saturnian (talk) 20:52, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

So, it is maybe "OR"? Fakirbakir (talk) 19:53, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Oh, It might be the "Bjelo-Brdo culture". ".... A Gyulafehérvár-Mentőállomás II. temető az erdélyi Bjelo-Brdo-kultúra jellegzetes, a 10. század második felére keltezhető leletanyagát képviseli. Ţiplic az ún. Ciugud/Csügedkerámia jelenléte alapján bizonyítottnak látja (!) a szláv-romanizált csoportok továbbélését, melyek Hátszeg vidékén, valamint Kolozsvár–Gyulafehérvár térségében mutathatók ki....." [2] Fakirbakir (talk) 20:01, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Are you sure? Or is it a speculation? Saturnian (talk) 20:52, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

I am not sure. I do not know. I am just trying to find it out whether Bjelo-Brdo is equal with "Ciugud Culture".... The Hungarian text above does not contain this statement however it mentions "Ciugud/Csüged type potteries" in connection with Slavs and romanized groups.Fakirbakir (talk) 21:01, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

(1) Thomas Nagler wrote of the (according to him, "widespread") Ciugud culture in 2005 (2) In 2013, the National Archaeological Record of Romania does not make mention of this culture. I think we can assume that Nagler's idea of the specific "Ciugud" culture has not become widely accepted by Romanian archaeologist. All the same, the article refers to this idea. Borsoka (talk) 04:11, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Blakumen and Bolokhoveni

I'm a bit surprised that the article doesn't mention Blakumen and Bolokhoveni. Since they are counted as an early proto-Moldavian population in the 11th century, one would think their mention would be relevant. --Cei Trei (talk) 21:57, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your above remarks. Even if Bolokhoveni (who are only mentioned in connection with events occurring between 1231 and 1257) can hardly counted as an "early proto-Moldavian population in the 11th century". Moreover, their identification as a Romance-speaking population is not widespread in English language literature (I refer to Spinei, Victor (2009). The Romanians and the Turkic Nomads North of the Danube Delta from the Tenth to the Mid-Thirteenth Century. Koninklijke Brill NV. ISBN 978-90-04-17536-5. pp. 161-162.). The identification of the Blakumen of a runestone from around 1050 as Vlachs in modern Moldova is likewise debated, since the word can simply refer to "black people" and the runestone does not mention the place where these Blakumen killed a Varangian merchant. (For further details I refer to Pintescu, Florin (2001). Presences de l’element viking dans l’espace de la romanité orientale en contexte méditerranéen. Studia Antiqua et Archaeologica (Centrul Interdisciplinar de Studii Arheoistorice) VIII: 257–272. ISSN 1224-2284). All the same, I agree that both population should be mentioned in the article. Borsoka (talk) 04:06, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

From what I understand, from this Wikipedia article (which uses sources), Spinei identified "Blokumannaland ... "to a territory inhabited by Vlachs south of the Lower Danube"; and then this: "Accordingly, they propose that the Blökumenn of the Flatey Book, similarly to the Blakumen of the runic inscription from Gottland, were Vlachs from Moldavia or Wallachia." Although some scholars connect the name with the Cumans, my impression is that most scholars connect the name with Vlachs. "Furthermore, Bolechow (Bolekhiv, Ukraine), a settlement to which a Polish charter from 1472 refers as the "town called "the Vlachs'" can also be identified with Bolokhovo." Here's an interesting observation: "In the modern Icelandic language, the term Blokumannaland may refer either to Wallachia or to Africa." --Cei Trei (talk) 15:08, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. References to both populations were added. Borsoka (talk) 03:58, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

A new (unused) source for the article

A documented chronology of Roumanian history from pre-historic times to the present day

http://www.restromania.com/_sections/Origins.htm

Saturnian (talk) 18:22, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it is a nice copy of the version as of at 20:50, 24 July 2012 of this article with references to books mainly written in the early 1900s. However, as an external links it can be added. Borsoka (talk) 01:02, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

On the use of sources

The old sources for the ethnogenesis - especially those referring explicitly to names that we still associate to Romanian, are very scarce. I think that some critical understanding of the relation of the author to the people should be used, such data can be found. As an example, Jordanes is known for his work on the Goths, but it is known that he also had good reasons to exagerate their qualities, and this was used for "rescaling" his claims.

Such rescaling is often very important in the history of Romanians. Since not many authors have looked carefully in this direction, I recommend an american historian who published also on the net: http://www.friesian.com/romania.htm#fifth. Typical questions are such ones as 1) What happened within centuries with the population that Herodotus said to be more numerous than any other ones except the Indians (namely the Gets). Some typical answers are that we find them under various denominations, some of which are not recognized in their link to the Gets - or Thrako-Daks - any more. 2) Who were the emperors of Constantinople, that spoke latin - from Constantine to Justinian, for example. The answer: we should consider them as belonging to the ancestor groups of present Romanians and Aromanians - i.e. South East Latins, whose ethnogenesis is unserparable.

I would propose some modification of sources and text along these lines - any development responsible around here?91.48.104.99 (talk) 20:32, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your above remarks. I fully agree with you that "some critical understanding of the relation of the author to the people should be used". For instance, Herodotus' "belief in geographical symmetry caused him to place the mouth of the Danube due north of the Nile delta, effectively enlarging Thrace to India proportions and reducing Scythia" which caused that he wrote of the large number of Thracians. (I refer to Timothy Taylor: "Thracians, Scythians, and Dacians, 800 BC-AD 300", page 186. In: Barry Cunliffe (1994): The Oxford Illustrated History of Prehistoric Europe. ISBN 978-0-19-285441-4) For instance, the ancient geographer Pausanias wrote that the Celts outnumbered the Thracians (I refer to page 63 in István Schütz (2002). Fehér foltok a Balkánon: Bevezetés az albanológiába és a balkanisztikába [=Blank Spots in the Balkans: Introduction to Albanology and Balkanistics]. Balassi Kiadó. ISBN 963-506-472-1). Accordingly, reliable sources suggest that Herodotus' exaggerated report on the great number of Thracians has often been misunderstood. Although the article refer to a number of Latin-speaking emperors (including Constantine the Great) who was of Illyrian origin, I agree with you that other emperors could be added. Borsoka (talk) 02:24, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Great! My question had an obvious impact, since you landed in a total different area, being unwilling to reply directly, you suggest you can turn the direction of discussion, at your will. Sad sad song!

The errors you attribute to Herodotus are a regional interpretation, far from being a scientific common. The desctiption of the Danube is considered sufficiently accurate by others, and the fact you refer to is a misunderstanding of interpreters and not of Herodotus. Interpreters who want to discard some of his statements. We are for instance used to the tactics of twisting the statements of old sources which mention unwelcome facts, in order to discard those facts from debate. Example: the whole tribulation around the Cronicle of Bela's Anonymous. We do not want to enter this sad tactics here, do we?

I see of course what your desires are in citing Pausanias. There is a major problem there too: the fact that except for those interested in purpurting "scientific-political" dogmas, the demarcation line between Getae and Kelts is not an obvious one. There are attributions stemming from historians of the antiquity: but little is known about their criteria of attribution. Can we expect that Kelts were, for instance one linguistic family and Getae an other one, like Germanic versus Slawic, 1000 years later, for instance? Nothing less obvious, if we consider Helvets and Rets and compare to Irisch and Scotts. And how close or far apart were they from the Boii? Yet all are accepted as Kelts, without comments. Some try to add determination by means of material cultures. The degree of accuracy of all these various approaches is a fraction of 50%. They probably were quite distinct at the respective "center of gravity of their civilizations". But due to the large spread and lack of unifying structures, it is very likely, that towards the borders, a keltic tibe like the Boii resembled more their neighbouring Gets, than the Irish one. What more is, when Kelts reached East Europe, 3-200 BC, they appear to have cohabited with the Getae in a peacefull was - there was at least compatibility.

The wish of denial with "scientific sources" fails thus before it can even act. We assume, as modern people, that Kelts were something, Getae was something else, two perfectly distinguished and distinguishable notions, which knew each other appart, and who lived in areas of Europe that were less or more known to the Geographer - so we assume there was at least a well defined object of observaiton (Getae/Kelts) which could have been well determined, somehow constant along the centuries, provided good methods of observation. This is a very naive premise, which few historians, both serious or partinic ones, take into account. Simply because it would make things too complicated.

Do you really want to go that way? I won't take this worn out arguments of sharp and superficial logics so easily, we have both been around, I guess, to know. There is a positive outlook to history and the part we can undertand about it. 91.48.107.195 (talk) 18:19, 19 June 2013 (UTC)Oh Freunde, nicht diese Töne! 91.48.107.195 (talk) 18:13, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Here is a translation of Herodot: "For the Nile flows from Libya, right through the middle of it; and as I guess, reasoning about things unknown from visible signs, it rises proportionally as far away as does the Ister. [3] For the Ister flows from the land of the Celts and the city of Pyrene through the very middle of Europe; ". So he says that Nile and Ister are similar in LENGTH. Never that they are close to each other. The Nile is in Lybia (definitely Africa) and the Ister traverses the midth of Europa - and so it does. When people cannot accept facts, how twisted their mind can be. Judge for yourself, and search for other flaws in Herodot, if it pleases you. Not that it matters, I explained above why it does not: //www.maryjones.us/ctexts/classical_herodotus.html91.48.107.195 (talk) 18:48, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank for your above remarks. If those are based on reliable sources, please do not refrain from editing WP according to them. Borsoka (talk) 02:52, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

You surprize me! I was talking about something completely different, you tried to put a no, jumping to a collateral argument about Herodotus and the Nile, which had little to do with what I had initially discussed, and I responded first to your deviation. Of course the translation of Herodotus is reliable, do you think people make their own translations? But it was NOT the subject, it was YOUR subject. Funny way of discussing here, I think I will go my way, then people can always state their opinion.

By the way, writing out regulations about "reliable sources" does not help much in history. What is reliable to the one, is deformation and abuse to the other. Very few are the shinning lights that anyone feels at ease with, history is not a science in the exact sense, all pretention it could be, leads to disasters. So please spear me formalisms, I know how to quote and what can be quoted, and I know how to explain to fellow humans the difference between irrefutable knowledge and meaningful deduction which best fits the data.91.48.121.140 (talk) 07:10, 20 June 2013 (UTC)