Talk:List of roguelikes

ZAPM

I've tried twice to add ZAPM to the list. It even bills itself as a science-fiction "Nethack" clone. It features randomly-generated maps, even though they're not technically dungeons, it plays much like other rogue-likes. ScottishPig (talk) 01:46, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

It was removed for not referencing a reliable source. I haven't been able to find much independent, reliable coverage of ZAPM, but you might be able to use Softpedia. There's a handy tool for generating references on the toolserver. Feezo (Talk) 07:18, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

List items without articles

Is there some reason that items without articles were removed from this list? Is there a WP policy regarding this? Just asking. SharkD 02:22, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

If there is there is undoubtedly a contrary policy, Wikipedia being what it is.75.173.84.243 (talk) 06:44, 2 April 2009 (UTC) Additionally, Liberal Crime Squad's not on the list.75.173.84.243 (talk) 06:52, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Gearhead??

Why was Gearhead removed, and its article deleted? -- Solberg 21:21, 25 June 2007 (UTC)Solberg

It was deleted for lacking notability. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/GearHead Feezo (Talk) 21:53, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

That's strange. IIRC it is pretty notable for roguelikes. -- Solberg 00:50, 27 June 2007 (UTC)Solberg

I don't understand why it was deleted. There were three Keeps and three Deletes. Hardly a consensus. SharkD 06:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The same reason 'IVAN was deleted, I suppose; lack of reliable sources to cite. It's a more notable roguelike than many of the others on the list, but that's Wikipedia for you, eh. Tchernobog 13:36, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I seem to remember a PC gamer article about it, and a TotR page, it also, being a third generation roguelike, containing dialogue and randomly generated plot elements, is quite notable in the context of the article, then again, DCSS isn't here, I suspect a Nethack fan of that.75.173.84.243 (talk) 06:28, 2 April 2009 (UTC) There was also an RPS article, I really think that it's the Nethack appreciation army striking again, they need to get a life, or play a roguelike that can't be beaten by a meg's worth of scripts, going to the japanese gearhead page to acquire sources tomorrow, someone tell me if there's a policy against that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.173.84.243 (talk) 06:59, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Dwarven fortress

Is dwarven fortress a roguelike? (google it) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.192.142.101 (talk) 08:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia categorizes it as a RL currently, so I've added here to the list until such time as its status as such changes. D. Brodale 10:39, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

And, If I say, the definition of 'rogulike' here seems very loose; if I were to make the list I'll exclude Transcendence and Diablo and many others on this list. DF is more 'roguelike' than these ones maybe? 221.171.148.25 18:03, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, I would define 'roguelike' as a dungeon crawl (or military base crawl, space crawl, etc.) with random levels, spawns and loot. Graphics and turn-based/real-time don't make a difference, IMO. SharkD 10:54, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

The best reason to exclude DF here is that the portion of the game that one might construe as roguelike is quite underdeveloped and far from the emphasis of development or gameplay at present. It seems several want to class it as such because of the text user interface, but that's a weak basis by which to judge whether a game is roguelike or not, as even the first "roguelike" sported a graphic interface in its early ports to home computers. D. Brodale 16:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I believe it to be a roguelike myself, as do others, I believe somebody on TotR defined it as a fourth gen roguelike, first generation ones being very similar to Rogue.

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Needed to separate my comment from the unsigned one above there. To me Dwarf Fortress is a lot of things but it really isn't a roguelike by the definitions I know. It's like a very (very) advanced version of Dungeon Keeper. It's an underworld culture management simulation. Roguelikes are about a completely different experience. 50.54.231.219 (talk) 17:48, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

It's a god game. 50.54.233.7 (talk) 13:55, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Change list to a informative table

I think it would be useful to change this list into a table, like what can be found here and here. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about these games to fill the table with relavent info. SharkD 10:37, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

The table offered in the first example (Comparison...) is a bit of overkill, or would be, if applied here. The second example presents a more reasonable expectation for info, though archetype/setting won't vary a great deal (and archetype seems misleading), and the developer field is likely of least significance for this genre, as the bulk are independent projects where authors rarely contribute more than one title before moving outside the genre altogether. D. Brodale 12:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Was there ever a formal discussion of this alteration elsewhere, or did you just decide to steamroller it into being? D. Brodale (talk)

What have you done to my eyes? This is ghastly, anyone in favor of going back to the bulleted list?75.173.84.243 (talk) 06:30, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Pokemon games

The Pokemon games listed don't feature random dungeons. Should they still be listed? I think dungeon crawl would be a better description than roguelike. SharkD 10:06, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

The same with Telengard. SharkD 10:43, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

These are all interesting points to raise, but this list is intended to match the genre laid out in the roguelike discussion. However, it is evident that the matter in that article requires further refinement to address overlap with similar elements in related genres (e.g., dungeon crawl aspects), as there's more to a roguelike than dungeon crawling in its (loosely) understood formulation and community following. It's a bit too slippery to go into a great deal of length here, but with roguelikes there is an emphasis on randomization that goes beyond generation of random dungeon layouts. Telengard may lack random dungeon mappings, but the whole of gameplay centers on random encounters and rewards to such an extent that most class it as roguelike in tone. Note also that several roguelikes favor procedural dungeon generation alongside random generation, such that one couldn't really say the "game maps" are wholly random, but rather pieced together after a fashion. I'll look into the Pokemon titles, but the ones listed should again be those that favor a more roguelike tone. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the list should not be renamed or recategorized as "dungeon crawls" as that's not the sole criterion by which roguelikes are judged, but that the supporting genre article requires further expansion and refinement (something I started over there in sifting through the raw article, but haven't had time to complete and source to date). On the other hand, there are plenty of "dungeon crawls" that aren't really roguelikes, such as Etrian Odyssey, where the sense of gameplay is more in line with "classic" CRPGs. D. Brodale 16:27, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Titan Quest

Titan Quest also features randomized loot. Would it qualify as being a roguelike, as well? SharkD (talk) 10:44, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Chocobo's Dungeon 2

The game features randomized dungeon parts (floors) -although not all- , shouldn't it be categorized as a roguelike game? 125.163.19.163 19:48, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't think so, it's just a dungeon crawler, graphics, the lack of dialogue and the fact of it's retail availability mean that it's rather out of place. 75.173.84.243 (talk) 06:21, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Rewrite this list

Is it just me or do half of these games not seam rogue-like to you "The roguelike genre of computer games is characterized by randomization for replayability, permanent death, ASCII graphics, and turn-based movement." Wikipedia article on Roguelike Hellgate London, Transcendence and probably most of the games on this list don't fit that description

Hellgate London is a Realtime graphical game featuring non-perment death and is played in realtime, Same with Transcendence and most of the games on this list

Also Dungeon runners for windows definitely isn't roguelike, it's action-mmorpg and only thing it shares with roguelikes is random loot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.22.17.205 (talk) 00:25, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

IMHO we should cut down the list to pure roguelikes like Nethack, Angband and Moria (To name a few). 123.243.197.60 (talk) 04:29, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I think the emphasis is on randomization, in that each new game provides a new play experience and an opportunity to attempt a different strategy. Besides, all three examples you cite have graphical variants. Angband even has a version that is played in real-time. I.e. the issue to consider is whether a game is in the 'spirit' of Rogue—not whether it is a stamped copy. SharkD (talk) 09:57, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Presentation mode is one thing. And I can easily forgive that. Falcon's Eye exploited part of the functionality of NetHack, keeping the exact same engine, but adding pretty graphics to the front. It was NetHack's creator's choice to separate the engine from the presentation mode. So, the Mystery Dungeon series, while not ASCII by any means, keeps the randomization, permanent death, and turn-based movement. While ASCII graphics have become loved by the core of roguelike players, they could well be the death of the genre.

Permanent death may also be worth forgiving. It's been a standard for the genre, but I don't see it as a must. You could easily capture the spirit of roguelike games while allowing the character to be reborn at the first level of the dungeon, minus their treasures.

Dungeon randomization is pretty much mandatory. Without the idea of exploring new dungeons, it becomes difficult to call it a roguelike. Each dungeon level (at least on initial visit) should be built new upon the character visiting the level. Only the really diabolical games refashion the level upon each visit to the level.

The turn-based thing is also a sticking point. The Diablo's have much going for them that feels like roguelikes, but the realtime action detracts from the entire idea. Careful strategization of every single step was a strong playing point in many roguelikes. It's impossible to carefully plan each step when surrounded by many creatures that are attacking you whether you're swinging your mace or not.

Another piece that detracts from the Diablo's being true roguelikes is that there was not much you could do to damage yourself outside of the monsters. There were no unlabeled potions or unlabeled foods that could be poisonous if ingested.

My vote: Keep the Mystery Dungeon series and other games that steer away from the roguelike concept only in the fact that they have a graphical interface, but remove the Action RPG's like the Diablo's. Dawynn (talk) 12:12, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

There are roguelikes that lack permanent death as well. For instance in GearHead when you "die" your body gets spawned in a hospital, and you only suffer temporary setbacks such as loss of experience or inventory, IIRC. Splitting the ARPGs into a separate table was a good move though, IMO. SharkD  Talk  09:37, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

We list a game as a roguelike if reliable, secondary sources describe it as a roguelike, per WP:Verifiability. Marasmusine (talk) 11:28, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

I've thought this over. Many of the games on this list are not explicitly described as roguelikes by the sources. Titan Quest for example is quite far removed - but there is a lineage via Diablo. Some games are described as "dungeon hacks" (Pokemon Mystery Dungeon). The real-time Diablo-type games are commonly called "action role-playing games". I would like to see seperate tables where there is clearly and verifiably a different lineage. The article may need renaming if this is done. Marasmusine (talk) 13:58, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Remove all the action games and ones that do not have ASCII modes. Those are not roguelike.--dchmelik (t|c) 05:22, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

There doesn't have to be a winner or loser of an "is it a roguelike?" discussion. Is Lost Labyrinth a roguelike? Yes. No. Is Spelunky a roguelike? No. Yes. Are Weird Worlds and FTL roguelikes? Most certainly, or certainly not. Take either side and you're right.

The only roguelike traits these later games do not share with the conventional ones are ASCII characters and turn based movement (even the grid is there). Fortunately full color tile graphics are now accepted, so that taboo sort of fell away a while ago. (This was a good thing. It made roguelikes more broadly appealing.) As for turn based movement--the point is to give one pause to think before each move. Same applies for the real time element in Weird Worlds and FTL: the action can be paused at any time, giving one pause to think before resuming play. It really boils down to the same thing.

All of the rest of the roguelike traits are present in these games: inherent multiple solutions to obstacles and problems, randomized _everything_, more content than can be experienced in not only one but many playthroughs, a "hunger clock" of some type, permadeath (no saves), and so on. In fact, roguelikes are not only the inspiration for these games, they're the template, and the word roguelike truly describes them best.

Just as other game genres have and arguably must, roguelikes are evolving. A whole new generation has discovered them and have their own ideas about what to do with the form. One step was breaking the "fantasy-only" convention, as FTL and the Infinite Space games did, choosing space science fiction instead. Other, newer roguelikes will doubtless push into other settings. As that happens, the roguelike form may have to mutate slightly again in accommodation. This asks for creativity and innovation.

And none of this threatens the purist. Classic roguelikes are still being enjoyed, improved and new ones created, each with or adding new wrinkles, mutations, innovations--it's happening there too. (See ASCII "Brogue" for example.) After all, why make a game to be shared unless there's something new to bring to the table? 50.54.232.117 (talk) 03:49, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

"DUNGEON" for PET

In 1979's Nov/Dec issue of CURSOR magazine, a game called DUNGEON by Brian Sawyerz (judging from looking at the binary) was published. I think this definitely counts as a Roguelike, it looks just the same ( see screenshot1 and screenshot2 ). Thoughts? :—Hobart (talk) 20:09, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

It predates Rogue? Interesting: I'd like to see it in action. Is it possible to determine if this is turn-based with random map? It may just be a dungeon-themed action game. It may not be verifiable beyond that original publication, though. Marasmusine (talk) 21:01, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Dungeon is described here. The article says it was a party-based RPG, and makes no mention of random levels/loot. It did use ASCII graphics though. SharkD  Talk  05:57, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

SharkD, what you are referring to is a different (mainframe, not micro) game of the same name. Marasmusine, I've loaded the linked .PRG file up in the VICE emulator for the Commodore PET - you can run it with "xpet -model 3032 dungeon.prg", and am saving off some screenshots. See these screenshots —Hobart (talk) 15:00, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I ran it 3 times and got the same map layout each time - either the game isn't randomized (which I think we've decided is a key point), or this is an artefact of the emulator. Ought to check Beneath Apple Manor too. Marasmusine (talk) 17:54, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Marasmusine - I've gotten unique dungeons on each run (see screenshots), it looks like the RND() function in BASIC (you can LIST the game after you quit) is relatively weak in the emulator :) it does look like Beneath Apple Manor predates it by a year. I've added it to the chronology. —Hobart (talk) 00:21, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Similar games

There are some games similar to roguelikes that are procedurally generated, but are party-based and use action points like D&D. Examples include S.C.O.U.R.G.E., Fishguts and Dungeon Monkey Unlimted (the last of which was developed by the same guy as GearHead). Can anyone think of additional examples? SharkD  Talk  06:03, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Despite every word in your first sentence getting me excited, I could not think of any verifiable examples. Marasmusine (talk) 08:09, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Platforms not recognized

DEC is still missing as an entry in Template:Vgclegend but the (Philips) P2000 is there so why isn't it recognized in this table? The Seventh Taylor (talk) 07:32, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

You need to add the DEC to the template. SharkD  Talk  07:38, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I went ahead and added it for you. SharkD  Talk  08:02, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I was going to ask "now what about the P2000, why is it still not recognized as a platfoprm here while it's in the template?" but somehow it does work now (although the real mystery is why i didn't before). Problems solved. The Seventh Taylor (talk) 02:15, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

It didn't work because it was never added (or was removed at some point?) to the template, despite what the documentation said. SharkD  Talk  07:03, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Dungeon Adventure

Dungeon Adventure is clearly a roguelike and should be added to the list. It's notable because it's the only roguelike available for Xbox 360. Rolen47 (talk) 00:17, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I won't dispute that it's a roguelike. However, as we are not a directory we limit ourselves to games that can be verified through reliable, independent sources. Let me know if you find one. Marasmusine (talk) 08:26, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Help me track down this roguelike

There's a shareware DOS roguelike I'm trying to find - I used to play it in the early 90s. It was first person, but rather than block movement, used vector graphics and smooth movement. The shareware version only had the first level, which was a simple random dungeon. The monsters were rats and bats, and items included spell scrolls like "magic map". Marasmusine (talk) 08:53, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Kharne: The Revelation

Why did you delete my addition of "Kharne: The Revelation". Your "excuse" in the history is "no WP:RS" (no reliable, published sources). In fact, I included a good link in my addition to a website dedicated to rogue-like games. If you didn't like that particular site, you could have simply provided a better link (there are many references for Kharne on the web) instead of deleting the entire "Kharne" entry.

At the top of this Wiki page is the statement "This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it". Given your behavior, I doubt that you are sincere.

This Wiki page should serve as a consolidated list of all known Rogue-like games that are complete and finishable so any interested reader can find a Rogue-like game to play. It should NOT be Marasmusine's or any other editors personal little kingdom of games that he/she deems suitable. ProResearcher (talk) 02:12, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

The fact is that Wikipedia is worthless as a source of information on roguelikes. It rejects useful information in favor of "notable" information. If it were up to me I'd purge all roguelike information from Wikipedia and leave it to dedicated wikis. 68.44.132.25 (talk) 18:28, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Omega

Ah, this list brings back the memories. One that I played a fair bit in the '80s that isn't on this list is Laurence Brother's Omega. Originally written for Unix, it seems to be currently available for Linux (http://libregamewiki.org/Omega-rpg, http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/maverick/man6/omega-rpg.6.html) and Windows (http://www.prankster.com/winomega/). Evank (talk) 16:38, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I used to play Omega a bit on the Amiga!... I never really managed to get out of the first town, but it was an interesting town and had interesting character creation. The tricky thing here is to find verification for it. This might do, and its apparently listed in This directory, although it can't be seen in the Google Books preview. Marasmusine (talk) 18:06, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Omega used to have its own page, but it was viciously deleted by a horde of editors claiming it was non-notable. In contrast to this batch of useless games, which because they earned a buck for someone in Japan are considered notable even though their connection with roguelikes is tenuous at best. Fucking wikipedia. 68.44.132.25 (talk) 18:27, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Expansions?

Do we list expansions to games here as well? SharkD  Talk  09:37, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Graphical action roguelikes

Should this edit be undone in order to restore the list of graphical roguelikes we had earlier? Dow we want to list these types of games here? SharkD  Talk  22:53, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Discussion on separating true roguelikes, from roguelike-like games

Please see Talk:Roguelike#Separating "true" Roguelikes from Roguelike-like games on a possible way to separate the two styles of games. --MASEM (t) 20:26, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Alphaman

Alphaman was a great roguelike that I got into after ADOM, seems to be missing from the list.

Reference: http://www.download-central.ws/DOS/Games/A/Alphaman/