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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Rt66lt (talk | contribs) at 13:47, 5 June 2006 (→‎India vs. "sovereign states"). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

The Demoocratic Republic of the Congo joined in 1960. President Mobuto changed the name of the country to Zaire in the 1970's. The country reverted to the previous name after the overthrow of Mobuto.


"Republic of Macedonia" is not in the UN, if you go to www.un.org you will see the country listed under "t" as "The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia." -Kosta


Template:FL

At the main page was written:

There are supposed to be 189 Member States. There are 188 listed below. I've already found several listed at http://www.state.gov/p/io/rls/fs/2001/index.cfm?docid=4842 that aren't on this list, making it well over 189. Anyone have any idea what's going on?

Answer: The problem is that the same country sometimes goes by different names. In particular (not counting obvious cases): 

on the mentioned list	on our list

Burma			Myanmar
Korea, North		Democratic People's Republic of Korea
Korea, South		Republic of Korea
Moldova		Republic of Moldova

The only one we really missed was the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.

Quite right. I had been counting the two Congos as well, but on looking again I see that they are already there; I just missed them. Thanks. --KQ

Sure that 'Serbia and Montenegro' is one member of UN? I thought that independent membership in UN is part of their new treaty!

I don't think so, it was international politics that prevented them splitting into two countries. They will only have one seat in the UN.

I listed the United States as the United States of America, since that is how the U.N. lists it. Please, no wars over this. If I am violating some Wikipedia policy, just revert. My source: http://www.un.org/Overview/unmember.html

cprompt

China

The member states of this list are supposed to transcend regimes. For example, according to the list, Afghanistan joined in 1946. However, the current Transitional Islamic State of Afghanistan was only formed in 2002. The date for "China's" membership is in 1945. Therefore, it would be inapproprate to use the title "People's Republic of China" as done in the last edit. The PRC joined in 1971, not 1945. In the eyes of the UN, the PRC replaced the ROC as the governing authority of China. It was a regime change, not a change of country.

Also, the statement that "all but one (Republic of China) are still members today" is inaccurate. Countries have changed their names. According to the list, the Democratic Republic of the Congo joined in 1960. But wasn't this regime and country established only in 1997? What about Zaire? Yugoslavia? Those countries have disappeared. Jiang 06:50 14 Jun 2003 (UTC)

The part about China's joining dates was pure a mistake. Not intentional. --Menchi 06:59 14 Jun 2003 (UTC)
see [[1]]. Jiang 07:01 14 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Concerning the SAR,s I didnt realise it was talking about the period before 1971. Sorry for that. --Huaiwei 14:29, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Clarity of organization

Is the section "The Seat of China" on the bottom in fear of accusations of Sinocentrism? It was placed above the "Observers" section because of logical transition. "The Seat of China" is directly related to the topics, namely, Member States. Whereas as the Vatican City city is not a member. It is an observer. It is not even listed on the webpage of the official UN member states list.--Menchi 06:42 20 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Oh...I changed it because the paragraph about the Vatican starts with "Additionally..." which I saw as a logical transition. If you put "additionally..." after explaining how a state is not a member, it doesnt make sense...or at least what I thought so. I don't care either way if you see things differently. Jiang 06:50 20 Jun 2003 (UTC)


The reason I reverse the edit is that The list is of UN member states and the UN lists :Macedonia as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.

User:Smith03

List of non-members

What about a list of NON-members of the UN?

Switzerland for one...

Switzerland is a member of UN since 2002. What countries would your list of non-members of the UN include? Taiwan? Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus? Sealand? Atlantium? Clearly you see that UN is not perfect but is unfortunately the best common denominator for different political views on this planet that we've got. So I oppose for making list of non-members under the name that would imply it to be "list of countries that could or should be in the UN but are not". --Romanm 13:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
If it is a serious point of dispute and there are efforts underway to secure membership, we should mention it. So far, Republic of China and Western Sahara seem to be the only strong cases, but there is also Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus as an edge case. AFIAK nobody supports Sealand or Atlantium, and they haven't even applied. --Delirium 01:47, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)
I second the request for Non-members of the UN. --Quasipalm 15:18, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
See list of sovereign states - in addition to the 191 UN member states, there are:
and micronations. But whether something is a "state" or not gets rather contentious as you move towards the end of the list. -- ALoan (Talk) 16:10, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

I am going to redirect the China link pointing to China to People's Republic of China since in a UN context this is what it refers to 80.5.115.14 17:34, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I am not sure if the reason China is linked to is because it represents 'the seat of China' but I still believe with the note of explanation at the bottom being sufficient, the link ought to link to People's Republic of China - feel free to change it if you disagree

I don't think it should be: the listing says since 1945, and the People's Republic of China in particular has not been a member since 1945, so pointing to that page would be inaccurate. --Delirium 01:44, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)

Unrepresented peoples

I removed:

For the Saharawi people of Western Sahara and the Taiwanese of the Republic of China, there is no member state of the United Nations that represents them. Ostensibly, they are represented in all UN organs by Morocco and the People's Republic of China, respectively. With the admission of Switzerland in September of 2002, all free countries other than the Vatican have joined the United Nations General Assembly as member states.

I'm not entirely informed on the situation in Western Sahara (has there been any formal attempts at membership or has Morrocco claimed responsibility?), but the phrase "Taiwanese of the Republic of China" is already by itself silly. Saying that there's "no member state of the United Nations" to represent the Taiwanese is POV. The People's Republic of China claims to represent them, the ROC claims the PRC does not. This paragraph makes two POV contradictory statements (i.e., the Taiwanese are not represented v. the PRC represents them). It further asserts that the ROC is not "free". Western Sahara may need some mention here, but the rest is crap. --Jiang 02:55, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Former Members, Names, and Notes

While it is necessary to keep former members separate, I think notes pertaining to current members should be placed next to the listing rather than in a separate section--Jiang 14:14, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

===>Response: I appreciate your input, Jiang. I wondered about whether or not I should have the notes at the bottom or the top. Two things made me go with bottom:

  1. It would be cumbersome to have the extensive explanations inside the list, and generally unattractive.
  2. Since former members are, by definition, no longer members, it isn't imperative to put them in the list of current members (as you noted).

The only way to rectify the first reservation would be to cut out information, but I think said information is valuable (or else I wouldn't have included it in the first place!) If you can think of a reasonable way to circumvent these issues, I'll be on board, but barring that, the list as it's presented seems most readable and best to me. Some users will come here just wanting to have the names of the countries, and that's the first thing they see - explanatory notes will simply bog them down. Do you think we should have separate headings for "Naming Conventions", "Former Members", and "Notes"? Justin (koavf) 20:49, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

It's difficult to have to cross-reference each entry in the list. If putting the text next to the entries will get in the way, then maybe try footnoting so that we would know whether an entry has an associated note in the first place. People have no idea whether a current country has a note in the section below when they read the list (if they are interested...). Yes, this would mean separating "Naming" and "Notes" from "Former Members"--Jiang 10:37, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

===>Fixed? I've changed things around a bit. "Former Members" has been consolidated, and is more manageable. I've made anchors for all "Former Members" and "Naming Conventions and Notes" issues in the main list (really the only "notes" are for Cyprus and Indonesia - all others are name changes or obscure naming convetions). Is this better? Justin (koavf) 22:40, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)

Some honest feedback: It's extremely frustrating for the reader to keep on go between the Notes section and the main body back and forth, back and forth. This separation of information is very annoying when reading. It'd be much better to just stick the relevant notes next to the country names or somewhere very very close (like the next line, using a "sub-bullet"). --Menchi 01:03, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Correction

Hey. I was not sure if yall noticed, but the Holy See was placed in the members category. Can I remove it, since it is a Pernament Observer? Zscout370 (Sound Off) 23:54, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

East Timor

Why is East Timor alphabetised under Timor? The article specifically says that countries are alphabetised under the English name, and the English name for East Timor is East Timor. Timor (without the East part) is an island, containing both East Timor and a non-sovereign part of Indonesia. — JIP | Talk 11:41, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

I, on the other hand, have never understood why the majority of people concerned on Wikipedia insist that "East Timor" be its English name. Timor-Leste is exactly the same kind of name that Côte d'Ivoire is - definitely non-English, but the country requested that its native name be used in all languages. — File:Austria flag large.png ナイトスタリオン ㇳ–ㇰ — 09:27, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Well, depending on the point of view, it can either be named East Timor and alphabetised under East, or named Timor-Leste and alphabetised under Timor. The mixed situation I was talking about (named East Timor and alphabetised under Timor) is a blatant breach of the article's own rules. — JIP | Talk 09:32, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

VOTE!! - HDI in country infobox/template?

The Human Development Index (HDI) is a standard UN measure/rank of how developed a country is or is not. It is a composite index based on GDP per capita (PPP), literacy, life expectancy, and school enrollment. However, as it is a composite index/rank, some may challenge its usefulness or applicability as information.

Thus, the following question is put to a vote:

Should any, some, or all of the following be included in the Wikipedia country infobox/template:

(1) Human Development Index (HDI) for applicable countries, with year;
(2) Rank of country’s HDI;
(3) Category of country’s HDI (high, medium, or low)?

YES / NO / UNDECIDED/ABSTAIN - vote here

Thanks!

E Pluribus Anthony 01:52, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Taiwan

To label Taiwan as a region not represented in the UN is POV. According to the UN, Taiwan is represented through the People's Republic of China since it is part of China and China's sole representative at the UN is the PRC (per resolution 2758). Official UN publications label Taiwan as "Taiwan Province of China" [2] [3] and has gone as far as telling NGOs to do the same [4]. During the SARS epidemic, WHA officials were only allowed to set foot in Taiwan after gaining the permission of the PRC, and the ROC govt was effectively denied access to the WHA. While Resolution 2758 made no statement regarding the status of the Republic of China, the actions of the UN, such as denying the ROC membership or observership, are in effect treating it as illegitimate.

It is the map that needs changing. --Jiang 06:14, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

===>My apologies Clearly, you are correct. I'll change the map tonight if no one else does. Justin (koavf) 14:34, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

China, Russia, USSR, etc.

Russia is listed as having joined the UN in 1991 despite the fact it is more or less considered the sucessor state of the USSR. To the UN's point of view, the USSR died as a state in 1991. Then's there's the inconsistency that some of the former Soviet Republics joined the UN in 1945, but Russia joined in 1991. China is listed as having joined the UN in 1945 and is listed with the PRC flag. Maybe it would be more accurate to say that to the eyes of the UN, the state known as the Republic of China died in 1971 and its sucessor state is the PRC. Then using that logic, the current China as the UN knows it joined the UN in 1971. If you go to the UN plaza in San Francisco's Civic Center and look at its list of countries joining the UN followed by the date, it would seem to support that point of view with regards to China. It lists that the Republic of China joined in 1945 and that the People's Republic of China joined in 1971. Allentchang 15:58, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

===>Makes sense to me Go for it. -Justin (koavf), talk 16:11, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

the reference cited is from the official UN website, here. If we go by regime changes, then the vast majority of dates on the list will have to be changed. In the eyes of the UN, the PRC is the successor state of the ROC. The "China" on the list joined only once - in 1945. It was the regime that changed - like how we dont put 2003 as the join date for Iraq because Baghdad was invaded, and the Iraqi UN ambassador simply left town to be replaced by another from the governing council. New memberships and expulsions are handled by the Security Council, not the General Assembly.
who authorized the stone slab in SF? On the flip side, we can cite Resolution 2758, which the General Assembly "Decides restore to the People's Republic of China all its rights...and to expel forthwith the representatives of Chiang Kai-shek" as if the PRC were already a member....--Jiang 16:28, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

===>Regime changes vs. successor states The PRC and ROC weren't regime changes, like when the president of Mauritania was overthrown. The PRC and ROC have different constitutions, governmental institutions, and are currently co-existing rival governments of overlapping, non-identical territories. Their situation is more complex and nuanced than merely a regime change, as they are two separate states, rather than a reconstitution of the same state. -Justin (koavf), talk 16:47, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

what you say is true, but the UN doesnt think so. Otherwise, but would still be members like the two Koreas. The ROC has all the characteristics and qualifications of a state including a fully functional government, foreign ministry, military, constitution, etc. but the UN will not allow it to (re)join because it is deemed a "province of China". We must stick to the official UN designations on this list. The argument you present is very valid, but only for having separate entries at list of sovereign states, and not here.--Jiang 03:38, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

===>Granted I may not have made myself clear - certainly, we need to follow and describe the understanding of the United Nations when editing this list. All I'm saying is, for instance, when Suharto overthrew Sukarno, it's not like Indonesia left and then re-joined the UN. (Although they voluntarily suspended their membership.) Regime changes are inherently different than the dissolution or reconstitution of states. This is all I'm saying. -Justin (koavf), talk 03:57, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Ireland

Ireland does not take its seat under the name "Republic of Ireland," see official UN site. Taking its seat under anything other than Ireland would violate Article 4 Bunreacht na hÉireann (Irish Constitution), which states: "The name of the state is Éire, or in the English language, Ireland." I am thus editing the article accordingly. Iolar Iontach 01:48, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

India vs. "sovereign states"

The introductory paragraph says this in part:

By definition, only sovereign states can be members of the United Nations General Assembly [...]

But is this so? If India was a founder member back in 1945 (presumably being offered a place as it had previously been a member of the League of Nations), then there's clearly an anomaly here, if not an outright contradiction; India did not become a sovereign state until two years later!
Silverhelm 00:23, 27 May 2006 (UTC).

The Ukranian and Byelorussian (now Belarus) SSRs were part of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics when they became members of the UN; they weren't independent until the 1990s.Rt66lt 13:47, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Serbia and Montenegro

Since Montenegro has declared independance, should the article be edited to change the Sebrbia and Montenegro seat to just the Serbia seat? Ixistant 21:01, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

===>Not yet Montenegro is just free to legally pursue the process of separation now. It's not sovereign yet. Once it is, it will have to apply for its own seat at the UN and other international forums. -Justin (koavf), talk, mail 01:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Not yet Serbia and Montenegro still exists as a country, despite Montenegrin independence, because Serbia hasn't officially declared independence to claim rights as a successor state yet. Dr. Manos 18:01, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

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