Talk:Liam Neeson

Liam Neeson: "I'm Irish"

For once and for all can we put this nonsense about his nationality to rest? He is an Irishman, born in the part of Ireland that is still under British rule; he is therefore just as Irish as all people in Ireland were before 6 December 1922 when most of the country became independent. Under the Good Friday Agreement of 1998, everybody born in Northern Ireland has a right to have their Irish identity accepted. The British government accepted this, and it is enshrined in international law. This is easily verifiable. More importantly still, Liam Neeson repeatedly defines himself as "Irish", not "Northern Irish" or "British". Here are five references, and there are many more but the man shouldn't have to battle to assert his Irishness so much: 1) "Being Irish and a citizen of the world, has made me truly appreciate Irish culture, music and history. Whether you’re first, second generation Irish or even with no connection to Ireland, you should visit in 2013 for a unique experience."(Source 1) 2) "I tried playing one…in Michael Collins.... That was a challenging role because, you know, I’m Irish. But at the moment, there’s no hero that I can think of."(Source 2) 3) "I'm Irish, so I'm used to odd stews. I can take it. Just throw a lot of carrots and onions in there and I'll call it dinner." (Source 3) 4) "When I was growing up I felt I was Irish." (p. 58)"...I certainly felt Irish, and proud of it." (p. 59) "I honestly don't know how being Irish has affected me as regards my profession, other than that I feel at ease showing emotion on screen--be it anger or sympathy or having to cry. But I am Irish, I'm from that stock, and I think it must have effects." (p. 59)(Source 4: all quoted in Áine O'Connor, "Leading Hollywood", Wolfhound Press. 1996)]. 5) "But let's just say, I'm Irish. I grew up in the 1950s. Religion had a very tight iron fist" (Source 5). Lastly, for obvious reasons somebody has removed the reference in this article where Neeson describes himself as Irish. Could somebody please ensure that all of these references are permanently inserted into this article as this incessant questioning of Liam Neeson's identity by small-minded people who want to impose a British identity on this Irishman is utterly tiresome. If necessary, somebody in Admin should intervene and settle this issue as it's distracting from other aspects of Neeson's work. 79.97.154.238 (talk) 14:44, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

See the section "Northern Ireland" above. It's clear he identifies as many different things. It should just say "... from Northern Ireland". No ambiguity there. — Jon C.^ॐ 15:08, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Obviously, all people "identify with many things"; their cat, dog, family, village, region.... However, his nationality is what's in question here, and he unequivocally, repeatedly and explicitly identifies as Irish and not "Northern Irish" or "British". As such, according to Wikipedia's rules, it doesn't matter whether you like his self-definition (and you clearly don't), or not. He's Irish, and there's an abundance of references for it. 79.97.154.238 (talk) 22:14, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

As you said: "born in the part of Ireland that is still under British rule". Country of birth does not mean nationality, but there are no good reasons to call him Irish as he is associated with Northern Ireland, with is part of the United Kingdom, hence "British", as that's the correct term for someone from the United Kingdom. I'm not a Martian just because I can choose to tell you I am, nor can an astronaut whilst walking on the Moon correctly refer to himself as Lunar, or a North Korean choose to be South Korean just because he happened to be born a few degrees farther North than he'd like. We can't choose what we are, get over it, and as such we have to stick to calling spades spades, and regarding people who are still liars, delusional, ignorant, stupid or want different definitions (just because I don't want so and so political party to win the election, it doesn't mean they can't still win) we should at least have the decency to refer to them appropriately. Should people who think the Americas is one country be called "citizen of the continent country of America"? No! Would Adolf Hitler still have been Austrian even if he referred to himself as German? Yes! Live with who you are, folks, it's better and much more truthful. - the 29. of May 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:C440:20:1116:94D7:798C:E97:13A3 (talk) 23:46, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

You know what I find tiring 79.97.154.238? People imposing their fucking agenda on articles such as Michael Gambon & Christian Bale too. It goes both ways, you see. I couldn't give a crap about anyone's self-identification in real life - but around here I do for the sake of factual accuracy. I totally agree with Neeson being described as Irish - the thing irking me here is your attitude when making a point. Edit: Should elaborate on what I mean by that: "born in the part of Ireland that is still under British rule" can we PLEASE leave this crap out? You can make a point without trying to guilt-trip the British. I'm Jewish AND British - I get so much shit you wouldn't believe. --Τασουλα (talk) 23:09, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

I find this tiring too Τασουλα. You see it on pretty much every page where someone has either dual citizenship or is born somewhere like Northern Ireland where nationality is confusing and up to the individual to decide. It's been said before, but in Northern Ireland we have the right to claim either a British or Irish identity and Liam Neeson clearly claims an Irish identity and this article should respect that. It can be hard for a lot of people outside Northern Ireland to accept that because politics and ethnicity in Northern Ireland is undoubtedly complicated. What I will say is Andy Murray is described as Scottish because he was born in Scotland, Tim Henman is described as English because he was born in England. Liam Neeson was born in Northern Ireland where two ethnicities exist: British and Irish and he has the right to decide which one he is.

What irks me about the people who keep insisting he is British whether he likes it or not is I get the feeling they either do not understand ethnicity in Northern Ireland or they are English and trying to use the term "British" to claim him as one of their own. Anyone who says he is in fact Irish gets branded a nationalist or a republican. Now I'm not saying the English are the only ones who do this (practically all nations try to do this), but it's an argument you see on many articles where the subject is born in the UK but not in England. It seems it's perfectly alright to describe someone as English but if they're Scottish people will say "No no, he's British he was born in the UK" and we can see it here too. The oft cited example of this is Andy Murray in the English tabloids: "British when he's winning, Scottish when he's losing." If Liam Neeson as someone from Northern Ireland says he has an Irish identity that's what he is.

If anyone wants to know I am from Northern Ireland and I claim both identities, having both a British and an Irish passport. 86.162.163.138 (talk) 00:04, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

English people are more likely to see themselves as British and thus more likely to see Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish people as British. It is as simple as that, and explanations for arguments over nationality do not require implications of English manipulation or double-standards. Also, I'd love to see some decent evidence for the oft-repeated but never backed up claim that Andy Murray is "British when he's winning, Scottish when he's losing". Kombucha (talk) 01:35, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

"The English, the English the English" is all I ever see whenever I check pages out like this. You, mr comment from the 14th of December have a very warped and frankly racist view of the English it is clear. England is no more nationalist than your country I am afraid, and compared to places such as Eastern Europe or Japan well, then you'll see what *real* nationalism is all about. You seem to think the English are involved in some plot to bring you all down. Did it ever come to you that most people described as British here are people from England? One person trying to argue from a pro-British viewpoint on a page (NOT an English one) relating to someone from Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales seems to be *automatically* English in your eyes and thus, all the English get the blame. And look at Irish nationalists! Every single person from Northern Ireland is Irish in their eyes despite roughly half of the place not considering themselves to be. Go look at the page on Michael Gambon and the Duke of Wellington (why any Irishman would want to claim him...) too. For the damn record, most of the time English is changed to British by "English" editors who insist it is not a nationality. Naturally they try and do the same for other parts of the UK too. 92.40.254.245 (talk) 01:57, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Oh yes, if you are a British citizen you are -also- a british National=\=nationality. The distinction here is identity. And the Andy Murray thing is a joke, by the way. Yet you guys seem to make it seem like it's the fault of the English...when it's people who self identify as British doing it. Right. Also, the flag violence in Northern Ireland clearly points to who the most fanatical British nationalists are...lmao. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.254.245 (talk) 02:04, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Nationality

Just because the Good Friday Agreement says he's free to consider himself and legally be an Irishman / a Irish citizen, it doesn't mean he is. Noone ever said the Good Friday Agreement is to be trusted, followed, obliged to, agreed to or allowed. He hails from Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The correct term for a person from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is British.

To use another example: If I, a man who was born and has lived his entire life in Norway, claimed to be a New Zealander I wouldn't be recognised as such. And I shouldn't be. A nationality (yes, that's what it's called (one way to say it, at least)) isn't about what you consider yourself to be, but what you really are.

Sometimes this poses some ambiguities. You can for instance be an American if you were born in South Africa. You have to look at birth place, place of residence, legal residence, what the legal papers say etc.

Also, for example, if someone from Egypt received a passport, bank card, driver's license and all other means of identification mistakenly identifying him or her as Russian, it doesn't mean he or she is Russian. This means that someone British would still be British even in a hypothetical case where every single person on the planet agreed that he was Irish. Applying this specifically to Neeson, he can say he's Irish as much as he likes (and I won't stop him from saying he is), but he is still 100% British.

I heard someone mention that Neeson's now a legal citizen of the United States of America. If this is true, and he no longer is a legal citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (or Ireland or any other country for that matter) in addition, he probably is (technically) an American. In which case you can scrap most of what I have now written.

There are however two ways to use nationality (possibly more, if properly specified (if you explain and use valid reasoning you can pretty much use any word to mean anything you want)): "where you are from" and "where you live". The first's answer would probably be the UK. The latter would be the country he happens to live in at the moment (if he is legally a permanent resident of that nation (there are a plethora of laws, rules, customs and expressions used in reference to this kind of thing, which makes intellectual and correct discourse in the topic challenging)).

Besides, "Northern Irish" would make everything loads easier. Wikipedia seems to almost universally refer to inhabitants of the UK by which the four constituent "countries" they hail from (England: English, Scotland: Scottish, Wales: Welsh and Northern Ireland: Northern Irish). I think this is a great way to do it. Alternatively you could skip the British/Irish/American/ Northern Irish thing completely and solely refer to him as "an actor" (but, of course, further down and to the right state/list his birthplace as "Ballymena, County Antrim, Northern Ireland, United Kingdom; with appropriate hyperlinks to the respective Wikipedia articles). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.247.145.184 (talk) 16:16, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

The US, Ireland and the UK ALL allow dual citizenship, and this is pretty common knowledge. --92.40.254.245 (talk) 02:00, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

So why, then, is he not referred to as "Northern Irish -Irish-American" or "British-Irish-American" in the article? - original poster, Bjørnar Munkerud, June 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:C440:20:1116:640C:C042:8CC7:41E7 (talk) 14:15, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Why, why do people have to bring the GFA into these arguments? Why is sooooo much immaterial stuff thrown around to try and back-up arguments? Why would someone who has declared themselves a proud Irishman and from an Irish-Catholic background be described as a British or Northern Irish anything??? --Somchai Sun (talk) 10:22, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Remove credit for The Delta Force (uncredited)

According to Neeson himself he's not in it. http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=35332 Play the soundcloud file, 21.20 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.72.170.247 (talk) 15:30, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

I believe both you and him, but we can't go on your people's words alone. For all I know he was cut from the film. Or maybe somewhat pretended to be him? There are several possibilities, and we have to realise that may include such things as Neeson wanting to distance himself to the movie or the creators of the movie getting into a dispute with him. The best would be proof that he was not in the movie where he is said to be. Otherwise some objectively written article which takes several different viewpoints from Neeson and relevant associated people from the movie as well as people who have studied the film and rumour closely would do. That we would just need to believe and accept. Now we don't really know for sure. - Bjørnar Munkerud, June 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:C440:20:1116:640C:C042:8CC7:41E7 (talk) 14:22, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Irish not Irish-American.

Liam Neeson like Pierce Brosnan was born in (Northern) Ireland to Irish parents, who had Irish parents. He lived there for most of his early years, he holds an Irish passport and was naturalised in the US for the purpose of remaining there indefinitely because he is a Hollywood actor. This does not make him American. Irish-American is a term used to describe American-born people who have an Irish parent(s) or grandparent(s). John Travolta, Mel Gibson, the Baldwin brothers are examples of Irish-American. Please do not change this back to Irish-American as it is extremely misleading. Stevenbfg (talk) 15:16, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Neeson's decision to become an American was not related to remaining in the US indefinitely, as all naturalized Americans are required to be permanent residents for a minimum of 5 years. He already had the right to remain indefinitely in the US for some time, and later decided to become an American, taking an oath stating 'I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen'

As to the term Irish-American, it has been used by Americans to describe their ancestry/national origin (albeit not without controversy), but stating two nationalities when someone has two nationalities is a regular practice. Look at Christoph Waltz (Austrian-German) Linus Torvalds (Finnish American) Edward James Olmos (Mexican American; he's an American-born naturalized Mexican).

Confusing national origin with Nationality has been a pet issue of mine on wikipedia, but Irish-American here accurately describes both of his nationalities, not his ancestry (as Irish-American sometimes does in the case of Americans like the Baldwins, JFK, and Gibson)Tippx (talk) 20:02, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

\== Not in source. ==

Sorry, but the BBC source does not make it clear that he is an Irish citizen. He wasn't born in Ireland so you'll have to do better than that you fenians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.210.98.67 (talk) 00:32, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

A source where Liam Neeson identified himself (and his sons) as Irish citizens is "George" magazine, June 1999 issue. I can no longer find it online, but it exists. Whether that means he should here be called an Irish citizen, I leave to others to fight out, but Neeson directly called himself an Irish citizen, so your comment about where he was born is irrelevant. And whether people are 'fenians' or not is even more irrelevant. Nuclare (talk) 11:50, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

The issue as it stands is that his British citizenship is not included thus implicitly stating (incorrectly) that he does not have it. I'm minded to leave it as is though. The bizarre lead sentence neatly sums up the desperate lengths that the editors will go to in order to push their agenda on this page. Having that flaged up to the reader is perhaps more useful than absolute accuracy. Eckerslike (talk) 16:27, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that sources where Neeson has addressed the issue of citizenship, he has himself shown an 'agenda' that doesn't include 'British citizenship'. In the article I reference, he directly calls himself an Irish citizen without any reference to also being a British citizen. He wasn't specifically talking about Irishness either (he was talking about why--at that time--he couldn't participate in politics in the U.S. where he lived). When he later announced his U.S. citizenship he said that he became a U.S. citizen "but I'm still a proud Irishman." Again, no mention whatsoever of Britishness--citizenship or otherwise. I don't think the lead sentence (or anywhere in the article) should be a dumping ground of citizenships. For lots of actors, we probably don't even know all the citizenships they could have. It should be a choice of the *best* way to describe him. Frankly, I think the evidence, taken as a whole, points toward Irish. Although we can debate that, I'd say it's reasonably clear that it doesn't point toward British being the best way to describe him. Nuclare (talk) 12:16, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I think your misunderstanding the concept of citizenship. I has nothing to do with what the individual declares but is a legal status that can only be gained or loss by official legal procedures. He gained British citizenship by being born in the UK. He remains a UK citizen until he renounces it legally by declaring as such to the British government. Interviews where he fails to declare his Britishness cannot be considered evidence that he has done this. In fact you would expect the opposite as renouncing citizenship is generally done as a form of protest.

Frankly I think that speculation about national identity should be left out of lead altogether. Instead simply let the facts within the article speak for themselves. The agenda is not simply stating the fact he has Irish citizenship but its appearance in the first sentence. It systematic of the insistence that his Irishness be emphasised at the exclusion of any other narrative. Eckerslike (talk) 20:32, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't misunderstand the concept of citizenship; you are misnunderstanding my point. A citizenship that technically exists for an individual isn't necessarily noteworthy by wiki standards and certainly not necessarily noteworthy in the sense of being in the lead. Wikipedia is not about documenting every legal detail about every individual. And citizenship also isn't the be all and end all of what descriptive adjective(s) should/shouldn't be used to describe someone in the lead. I agree we shouldn't have speculation in the lead, and we shouldn't have laundry lists of citizenships there either. Nuclare (talk) 21:50, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps we should change it from "an Irish actor with Irish and American citizenship" to "to an Irish actor who also holds American citizenship". That way it doesn't directly state he has Irish citizenship which we are not 100% sure off. He is however Irish by the fact he states that its his nationality. Its no different from Sean Connery being called Scottish even though he's a British Citizen. Does anyone agree with me changing the sentence to what I said above? Stevenbfg (talk) 08:16, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

How about we simply say "Liam Neeson is an Irish actor"? No controversy there. His American citizenship is stated in personal life anyway. 79.97.222.9 (talk) 08:31, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Wrong, sadly, it's not that easy. That is exactly the most controversial thing. The fact is that he's not Irish or American, or at least not solely or just the two together, he's Northern Irish /British. - June 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:C440:20:1116:640C:C042:8CC7:41E7 (talk) 14:26, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Liam Neeson, like everyone else born in "Northern Ireland" prior to the GFA is an Irish citizen according to the nationality laws of the Irieh Republic. That some persons born in the north of Ireland have claimed British citizenship and choose not to recognize or claim their Irish citizenship for sectarian/partisan reasons does not change the simple fact that those who do --- such as Mr Neeson and myself --- are legally Irish citizens and are recognized as such by the Republic of Ireland and the rest of the world. If some Unionist/Loyalist sorts don't like it, so what? Our Irish citizenship is legally unquestioned and none of your damn business.

Lead is too short

The lead was long and summarized everything nicely in the article, now its been reduced severely, making Mr. Neeson as some less of an actor who hasn't been recognize at all, which he has. Is there an explanation to why it was reduced by editors of this page? (Libby995 (talk) 05:56, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Text/ignored.

For some reason there is red text, almost like a warning in the reflist section with the (title of my thread) mentioned. Why? --Somchai Sun (talk) 22:41, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

It is (was) a warning, or perhaps more accurately an error message, indicating a malformed citation template in the reference where it appears. Fat&Happy (talk) 01:37, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Ah I see. Never seen anything like it before, but the more you know! --Somchai Sun (talk) 09:38, 17 July 2013 (UTC)