Talk:Dolma

malfoof should be under here

malfoof is under 'cabbage roll' but it's also prepared through using grape leaves in Jordanian and Lebanese cuizine and possibly other Arabic speaking middle eastern countries. Mabye malfoof should also be mentioned in this article or mabye given its own article in itself? American-Jordanian and American-Lebanese peoples have used cabbage more often when in the United States, most likeley due inability to access grape leaves.

Cyprus

In Cyprus this food is called Koupepin, Κουπέπιν, which comes from Arabic kubeba and NOT Dolma or Ντολμάς. Could this be an arabic dish? —Preceding unsigned comment added by WhiteMagick (talk • contribs) 20:20, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Comment

I dont know how to use arabic text, so will someone do me the favor of adding waraq dawali as the arabic name of the food, and state that it is popular in Levantine Arab countries. Thank you -Niz

I can also attest to this name being used in the Palestinian territories as well as within the Arab community in Israel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.123.4.230 (talk) 20:02, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

---

Sorry but this Armenian etymology addition is hilarious, who on Earth added somthing so unbelievable. Dolma is clealy a Turkic etymology meaning Dolma = To Fill, Dol = Fill, when ma is added it becomes "To Fill", from my holiday trips to Turkey picking up the little of the language I know it is a commonly used word.

Also Dolma is not generally stuffed with meat, its a vegetarian dish, some versions may have a little mincemeat but that's all.

User:Johnstevens5

In Greece, at least, with-meat and without-meat versions of dolma are both common, with preference depending largely on the time of year (vegetarian is more common in the summertime; meat in the wintertime). --Delirium 21:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Greek?

The greek says "dolmadakia", but a transliteration of the greek text says "dolmadhes" ("ntolmades"). Could someone "in the know" please correct it? As yet there isn't even a greek article for reference... Tomer^talk 23:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

They're both correct; the "-akia" version is a diminutive plural ending, while the "-adhes" version is a "normal" plural ending. They have slightly different connotations, but are mostly interchangeable. --Delirium 21:31, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

no they are not

ntolmades are lachanontolmades (made with cabbage)while ntolmadakia(small ntolmades) usually refers to the ones made with vine leaves. They are not interchangable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.130.88.134 (talk) 11:02, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

definition

In English usage as far as I'm aware, and certainly in Greek usage, "dolma" refers specifically to the stuffed grape leaves, and does not include stuffed tomatoes, stuffed peppers, or other such dishes that go by different names, such as "yemista". The article currently says they all go under the general term "dolma"; is this a usage common in English? --Delirium 21:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

The Oxford Companion to Food's article on dolma is primarily about stuffed vegetables, though it also mentions the rolled grape leaves (sarma). I am not sure what other generic name we could use for the Ottoman stuffed vegetables, which are found from the Balkans to Arabia. --Macrakis 23:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I have changed this article so that the variance of usage between British English and American English does not mislead. The same vegetable is commonly given different names in Britain and in the USA. The vegetable that in Turkish is called 'kabak' is called commonly 'zucchini' by the Americans taking its origin from Italian but generally called 'courgette' by the British taking its origin from French. Similarly, the same vegetable that is called 'patlican' in Turkish is called commonly by the Americans 'eggplant' and called generally by the British 'aubergine' which is originally French. The article before my correction gave the impression that 'zucchini' and 'courgette' were different vegetables; similarly 'eggplant' and 'aubergine'. --User:noyder 00:35, 16 March 2007

In church (a Greek church), I am used to hearing 'dolmadhes' or 'ntolmadakiagialantsi' ("dolmadakia-yaladzi") used interchangeably. I am also told that their origin is Turkish, as is that of all Greek words containing 'nts' for "dz". Class4System (talk) 05:59, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Etymology

Perhaps we should go a step further and cut out all the grammatical details for the verb dolmak. I still think that it is an active verbal noun because dolmak is an intransitive verb so it can't have a passive form. None of this, however, is important to this article so perhaps we could rewrite that sentence as: "Dolma is derived from the Turkish verb dolmak which means "to become stuffed" and thus roughly means "stuffed thing"." Xemxi 17:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty happy with the current wording, which incorporates your correction (that it is a verbal noun and not a participle), but doesn't specify whether it is active or passive. As GL Lewis points out in Turkish Grammar (p 171), in English, too, verbal nouns can be used both passively and actively, e.g. "the singing of the choir" and "the singing of the song". I think it is good to note that it is a regularly formed verbal noun, just like ezme, yazma, bekleme, etc. --Macrakis 17:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I think it should be a reflexive verbal noun. If the verb would have been "doldurma" it would be an active verbal noun, or else if it would have been "doldurulma" it would be a passive one. But the verb "dolmak" seems like a reflexive one.

--Chapultepec 17:57, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

For some reason there is a song beginning with the words "Dol Kara bakır dol". But regrettably WP is a place where people who do not know anything more than an informal greeting in your language are entitled to teach you grammar (in your mother tongue)... --E4024 (talk) 22:56, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Sure, that makes sense (leaving the sentence as is). But just for the record, dolmak ("to be full") can never be made passive because the verb can never have an object! The possibile derivatives include doldurmak (transitive: "to fill") and doldurulmak (intransitive: "to be filled"). It's counter-intuitive thinking about it in English terms because there is no English equivalent to dolmak. I don't think it is reflexive because that would imply the subject and object are the same. Anyhow, none of this belongs on a food page, so I'll leave it at that! Xemxi 17:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I see your point. Thanks. --Macrakis 20:40, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Just for the record: Turkish intransitive verbs can be passivized in what is called 'impersonal passive' constructions, i.e: 'Burada yuzulmez'. Likewise transitive sentences can be 'double passivized'.

Which variety of grape?

Which variety of grape plant is used for the leaves, typically? Concord, chardonnay, pinot, etc? Badagnani (talk) 10:26, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Whatever grapes you have. In Europe, they will of course be Vitis vinifera. I would guess Concord grape leaves would work, but I don't know. --Macrakis (talk) 13:12, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

that's what i use.. white/green grapes, though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.191.11.163 (talk) 22:51, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

dawali

Hey, what about the translation, dawali - that's the one I'm familiar with, both don;t see it represented here. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 08:15, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

What is the language? Badagnani (talk) 17:08, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Palestinians call it dawali. --Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 19:45, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Nutritional information

I could see that it is missing it —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stevecam (talk • contribs) 00:58, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Proposal to Merge "Sarma (Food)" article with this one.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was not to merge the articles. Geoff ^{Who, me?} 19:37, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

---

In most cases people don't make a distinction between the two. Dolma can be (and is often) used for both Dolma and Sarma dishes, but Sarma is sometimes used to dishes that are "wrapped" (i.e. leaf/cabbage dishes). Sarma(Food) need only be a section the Dolma article, not an entire one on its own. Both Dolma and Sarma dishes usually share the same filling and similar preparations etc, and are derived fromt he same concept. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alperyasar (talk • contribs) 03:05, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

It wouldnt make sense, Dolma is general term (From huge Lamb to tiny pepper dolmas) This article needs to be refined. And Sarma (wrapping) should be imporved to include other ones. Sarma is not Dolma, it is both literally and logically wrong. While Sarma is apperative, dolma is main dish(I assume balkanian cussine has similar rituals like anatolian)

I am against this proposal. Dolmades are a specific food, and the term is widely used and recognized. Merger would cause confusion and a loss of accuracy. 24.4.206.167 (talk) 03:14, 9 September 2010 (UTC)arbales

I am renewing the proposal that Sarma be merged into Dolma. I think that the content in the Sarma article can easily be explained in the context of Dolma, and in fact Sarma is already mentioned in the Dolma article. Further, the Sarma article has multiple issues which will be solved by merging the information into Dolma, then by creating a redirect at Sarma to point to Dolma. Geoff ^{Who, me?} 22:19, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree either, but seems like you don't care much about others' opinions. --E4024 (talk) 22:48, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Recently I have been involved in developing the Dolma article, in case there is a merger with Sarma, considered by some as a subgroup or category within Dolma, although I do not support the idea of merger. --E4024 (talk) 10:24, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

No, sarma != dolma. sarma=wrap, dolma =stuffed vegetables (pepers, zukini, onion, tomato...) dolmades!=dolma — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.6.231.207 (talk) 08:25, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Could an uninvolved editor close this discussion please? Clearly there is a "keep as they are" situation...--E4024 (talk) 16:59, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

DO NOT MERGE SARMA WITH DOLMA. As a Serbian, I know the difference and they are NOT the same thing and it is frustrating enough to explain to foreigners what Sarma is without having to explain the difference between Sarma and Dolma. Keep it as is. It would be complicating things for everyone if you say "sarma" and then have to link to a page called "dolma" and then have to explain that it's sort of like Dolma but not. JUST LEAVE IT. 7:23, 20 May 2013. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.215.190.204 (talk)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Latin-alphabet spelling of kουπέπια

I'm changing the spelling of

I had no idea what the Greek word in the title of the unsigned above comment meant; so I checked it by Google Translator for curiosity. The result in English is "stuffed vine leaves" and in Turkish "Yaprak Sarma". Sharing it with other curious people like me... :-) --E4024 (talk) 10:30, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Categories beginning to get unwieldy

If we shove in a category for every nation that has this, things will get unwieldy. Can people suggest some cath all s (suh as Balkan cuisine) that will cover everywhere relevant?--Peter cohen (talk) 10:49, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Sauces

"Meat dolma are generally served warm, often with sauce" - which sauce(s) would that be? 77.8.103.5 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:12, 23 June 2010 (UTC).

Two: Garlic yoghurt and Fresh tomato (sauces). --E4024 (talk) 22:45, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Tomato leaf dolma ?

Tomato leaves are poisonous 98.118.62.140 (talk) 22:00, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Fixed. It looks like soemone copied to the previous entry and forgot to remove the mention of leaf. Thanks for pointing this out. If in the future you see something similar, you're welcome to fix it yourself--Peter cohen (talk) 22:55, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Gemista - merged into Dolma

I oppose on this suggestion. Gemista is a unique & remarkable Hellenic food in Greece and of course, must have its own article.--46.177.179.219 (talk) 21:45, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Rubbish. "Gemista" simply means "stuffed". Reliable sources like the Oxford Companion to Food make this clear. --Macrakis (talk) 03:11, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

No merger

What we need is not merger but a good article on Dolma and another good article on "Sarma", as dishes of the Turkish cuisine. Thirty something new countries have emerged from the lands of the Ottoman Empire and they are all asking for the Turkish cultural heritage to be recorded as theirs because they added their own "plural" to the Turkish word (Dolma-Dolmades) or their language likes strong sounds (Dolma-Tolma) better... This is just a Turkish cuisine item. The reason why Dolma and Sarma are so mixed up is also -at least in great part- due to this use of Turkish words in foreign languages. Check up with Japanese or Chinese kitchens and you will see how an authentic Japanese or Chinese dish name has taken different shapes in the countries of their own cultural sphere of influence. (Look more closely into the Japanese culinary influence in Peru or Brasil, for example. What do you see?) --E4024 (talk) 10:01, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

I believe the merger is proposed because many cultures use dolma to mean sarma, as sarma and dolma are the same food category. Western Armenians and Greeks make the distinction, but Eastern Armenians don't. And btw, It may be possible that sarma was a term used mostly in certain locations maybe by Armenians and Greeks in the Ottoman empire, which is why Turks use the term yaprak in addition to sarma. I don't know how it is today, it would be a good research project to find out why Turks used yaprak when a term like sarma existed. Also why are you so intent to make dolma Turkish? Just because Turks eat it, it does not mean it is Turkish origin. There is no evidence, and in fact there is evidence to suggest it is Armenian origin, but for now I refrained from mentioning this directly, because I know I will get into an edit war. Thinkfood (talk) 02:35, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

We claim that it is Turkish because the word "dolma" or "sarma" are etymologically Turkish words. Roots and suffixes are totally Turkish. And all the other nations use this word (dolma) to describe the same kind of dishes. This is an evidence that they learned it from Turks. It is so clear. Why don't you accredit it as a Turkish word and originally as a Turkish dish? This is the only ethical way. For example I can claim that "Tiramisu is a Turkish desert because we make Tiramisu in Turkey. We don't use alcohol in it. It is a different type of tiramisu. It is a common dish where Roman Empire ruled. Every nation makes it in a different way and pronounces it in a slightly different way. We can't know its true origin. It belongs to everyone even though the word itself is Italian". But this claim would be definitely unethical. It is an Italian dish and Italian word. Be fair to Turks and accredit it as Turkish. Stop this dirty wordy plays.

Yaprak Sarma

Nowhere in Turkey Yaprak Sarma (filled vine leaves) is called "Yaprak". So I erased it from the text. --E4024 (talk) 09:35, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

History

I've removed this as it is just used for culture wars[1] over the origin of the Dolma. I doubt very much that we can find an origin for stuffed wrapped in leaves - which very likely goes back to prehistoric times. Please don't replace it without reliable sources - in this case it would have to be academic sources, not popular ones. Dougweller (talk) 08:43, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Greece in the lead & nationalist arguments

The link is not to Ottoman Empire, but to Ottoman cuisine. This article states that "the Ottoman cuisine has strongly influenced other cuisines such as Persian cuisine, Armenian cuisine, Cypriot cuisine, that of the Balkans (Greek cuisine, Bulgarian cuisine, Romanian cuisine, Macedonian cuisine, Albanian cuisine, Serbian cuisine, Bosnian cuisine), and that of the Middle East (Levantine cuisine, Lebanese cuisine, Syrian cuisine, Iraqi cuisine, Jordanian cuisine, Palestinian cuisine, and Israeli cuisine)." Thus it calls Greek cuisine an "other cuisine". Ditto Middle Eastern cuisine. I don't know the best way to fix it, but removal of "other cuisines" is probably not the best way to do this, particularly in light of the obvious nationalist arguments between Turkish and Greek nationalists, which is a concern of mine on articles like this. Dougweller (talk) 09:11, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Dolma - Gemista

I have an issue with the terminology in this article, guys. It is some time I've read a comment by Macrakis above ("Rubbish! "Gemista" simply means "stuffed"), and, since then, I am thinking again and again about it and something just does not work properly. In the past, I had in mind my Greek experience, but now I also have my Bulgarian-tasting one, and I think I can be more concrete and accurate:

Both in Greece and in Bulgaria, when we say "dolma" we mean rice or/and mince meat wrapped with cabbage or vine leaves. So, in Turkish "dolma" may mean "stuffed", but in the Greek and the Bulgarian culinary traditions this dish is not conceived as "stuffed" but as "wrapped". "Stuffed" (γεμιστά [gemista] in Greek – I don't remember now the Bulgarian term) is a different dish, where tomatoes, peppers and other vegetables are indeed stuffed with rice or/and mince meat (in this case you don't wrap the rice, but you stuff the vegetables with it. It might me trivia for somebody not familiar with Balkan cuisine, but in the Balkans (at least in these two countries I know) these are two different, two clearly distinctive dishes.

I thus think that the article should reflect that; it should make clear that not only in Greece, but in at least two Balkan countries "gemista" and "dolma" are not only called differently, but, additionally, they are regarded as two distinctive dishes (and IMO this is completely understandable, because they are based on a completely different logic and cooking preparation). Creating another article for "gemista" could also be another thought, but this is not my main problem.--Yannismarou (talk) 20:53, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

First of all, Macrakis is a wise man, if I were you I would listen to him. Other than that, just as there are Dolma and Sarma articles here from the Turkish/Ottoman kitchen you may also make your own Gemista article and even present it in 2 sections like Gemista 1 (Sarmales?) and Gemista 2 (Dolmades) or with whatever names you prefer; but please refrain from making manipulative or degenerating changes in the existing Dolma and Sarma articles. Simply create your own "Greek kitchen" gemista (stuffed) articles... --E4024 (talk) 21:05, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

What changes? What are you talking about? Did you even read what I wrote? I don't want to create any article; I did not even try to edit this article, instead I started a new discussion in the talk page if you noticed it. What I say is that "dolma" is conceived in a different way in Turkey and in some other countries (such as Greece and Bulgaria) and this should be reflected in the article. You can give your preachings about avoiding manipulative or degenerating changes to some newbie in WP; as far as I am concerned, after 6 years in WP and 7 FA nominations I do not accept such advice (which I obviously regard it as offensive in the way it is articulated). Do you have anything to add as regards the substance of what I wrote or not?--Yannismarou (talk) 21:11, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Although you are still shouting after 6 years I will answer: There are two words (in Turkish for these Turkish dishes), 1. Sarma (wrapped), 2. Dolma (stuffed). These are the two "correct" denominations for the two different preparations. (You may call whichever of them the way you wish in Greek.) On the other hand, there is the other (and more important) division: Dolmas and Sarmas made with only rice and eaten cold and the other Dolmas and Sarmas made with minced meat (and a bit of rice) and eaten hot (or warm if you wish). These latter versions are generally consumed with a garlic yoğurt sauce, while the cold dishes are consumed with lemon. So you have 4 different plate categories to name. You may call whichever of these as Gemista (1, 2, 3, 4). We make a differentiation by using the word "yalancı" in the case of cold "Dolma(s)" and "zeytinyağlı" in the case of Sarmas (like Zeytinyağlı Yaprak Sarma, Zeytinyağlı Lahana Sarma) etc. At least now you learned (maybe, if you already did not know) something about the Turkish kitchen. Sorry for the "lecturing" tone; déformations professionnelles... --E4024 (talk) 21:34, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I know a lot about Turkish cuisine, but in any case thank you for the free lessons. Now, what exactly have to do these lessons with what I wrote about Greece, Bulgaria and the gemista/dolma terminology in these two countries? Obviously nothing! How can I not shout when you are so off topic?! You are analyzing me sarma and dolma in the Turkish cusine, when I am speaking about Greece and Bulgaria!--Yannismarou (talk) 21:41, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

As regards Bulgaria, in order to be more accurate, I would like to clarify that what in Greece we call "gemista", they just call it peppers or zucchini etc. with rice and/or minced meat, and the dish is usually accompanied with kiselo mlyako (yogurt). I find many recipes in the web, but I would like to find a more reliable source concerning Bulgarian cuisine. As regards dolma, the dish is conceived in the same way both in Bulgaria and in Greece.--Yannismarou (talk) 21:27, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Pre-emptive strikes, filemou; I like Dolma and Sarma as they are made in Turkey, I like a a Grilled Octopus made by a Greek cook. That is the issue. --E4024 (talk) 21:47, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

You don't understand the issue, my friend; so I don't see any reason continuing this discussion with you. Somebody else may have a better grasp of such culinary issues and may thus contribute some really useful feedback and not pointless jokes. In any case, do not worry; nobody questions the Turkish rights on dolma and sarma. However, I suppose you have noticed that the article is not only about Turkish dolma but about the whole culinary tradition of such dishes in the Balkans and the East.--Yannismarou (talk) 21:51, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I know the area of Turkish cultural influence, thank you. And good night. --E4024 (talk) 22:02, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Updated citation about 'fake dolma'

I added a citation from this article explaining the practice where vegetarian dolmades are often called 'fake.' I deleted the not in citation template from a previous sentence in that same section because the aforementioned and now cited news article explained the etymology as well. Undead q (talk) 02:25, 30 December 2012 (UTC) The reference is fine, but editorilizing is not. It is not fake because it is meatless, regardless of how the term came about. To say what it means is enough.68.199.97.145 (talk) 22:28, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

What vines other than grape?

The leaves for wrapped dolmas made from "vine" leaves are not specified other than grape. Are there other kinds of vine leaves used? If not, it should be clear that "vine leaves" refers exclusively to grape vine leaves.68.199.97.145 (talk) 22:30, 9 January 2013 (UTC) Let me write for you several, but in Turkish as I am not sure of their correct equivalents in English: Pazı (aka Pezik in some parts of Turkey), Kara Lahana (aka Pancar in parts of the Black Sea Region), Beyaz Lahana or Kelem, Kiraz (cherry). Look around "collards" to find some of these but perhaps not always the same thing. --E4024 (talk) 22:46, 9 January 2013 (UTC)