Talk:Halloween

Obvious vandalism

There's obvious pathetic high school vandalism on this page and clue it reverted it... Can we do away with the autistic poem on the front page. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.27.242.194 (talk) 04:37, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Ah, yes. It seems like there was a lot of reverting of the mass content removals you kept making. Ironically, those reverts were preserving vandalism.  —Sowlos  06:18, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

The discussion of ancient Celtic practices (1 BCE) and the practices of their descendants (17th Century CE onwards) in one section

I'm starting this thread to discuss these edits: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Halloween&diff=575621599&oldid=575599220 The material about the practices of people living in Britain and Ireland, in the modern era, should not be included in the section which should discuss the influence of Samhain on Halloween. Samhain was recorded in the first century B.C.E. in the Gaulish Coligny Calendar and All Hallows has been celebrated since the seventh century C.E. It’s very confusing to list both ancient Celtic practices, along with modern practices of the descendents of the Celts on Halloween. This makes it seem that Celtic civilization and Christianity are mutually exclusive, which they are not. The practices that are in the latter part of that section are also Christian ones, since their practitioners no longer held the beliefs of the Druids, but became Christians. Mumming is actually a medieval practice that was not only performed on All Hallows’ Eve, but on Christmas Eve, Twelfth Night, Shrove Tuesday—Christian holidays. It does not make sense to put a Medieval practice alongside those from ancient times, especially when the ancient Celts never practised them. Most texts, including Hutton’s, do not present Halloween this way either, but first talk about influences from Samhain, and then All Hallows. In fact, the citations that are linked to the paragraphs that you added are from the section of his book titled “The Modern Halloween.” That’s why I refactored the material you added about guising in Ireland, Wales, etc. to the appropriate sections about modern practices “Trick-or-treating” and the content about turnips to the section on “Symbols”. These are modern practices and it makes more sense to discuss them there. Furthermore, we should not devote one large section to the modern practices of the descendants of the Celts, when there are a host of other groups that celebrate Halloween—that’s why there’s a “Halloween around the world” encyclopedia article. If you’d like, there’s a section about this topic on the main article and I won’t object if you move some of the material you added there—I am trying to be accomodating.

Let’s also talk about ‘Muck Olla’. Where did you find this? I looked through MacLeod’s book, in addition to pages 308-309 of the Journal of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland, Volume 2 and it’s not mentioned there once. On those pages, the journal is discussing Ancient Monuments of the New Ordance Maps and Kilbarron Church, nothing related to Samhain. The only practice in the second to last paragraph that is related to Samhain is that of Láir Bhán, which is mentioned in Sharon MacLeod’s book. That’s why I left it there. The paragraph on guising in Ireland, Scotland, Mann, and Wales is a colourful and interesting one—let’s move it to the section on trick-or-treating where it makes sense. I hope you see my point here. Obviously, I have not removed the material you added, but have refactored it—hopefully we can come up with something that we can both agree on. Maodhóg (talk) 03:21, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree — discussing Halloween practices in Britain and Ireland from the 1800s along with ancient Celtic practices from Samhain in one paragraph doesn’t make sense at all. That would make it seem as if the practices of the 1800s developed completely independent from the Christian influence in the British Isles (by that time, the ancient Celtic religion had long been dead and those regions were practicing Christianity). I think it would be better to add them in sections discussing the modern day practices of trick or treating and games and other activities. The ‘Celtic’ section should be dedicated to discussing possible influences from Samhain on Halloween. That being said, Samhain is a festival that historians know very little about. Most sources generally mention bonfires, the mixing of the worlds of the living and the dead, and animal sacrifice. These things should be included in the section, not ways that people from Britain and Ireland celebrated Halloween in the modern era. Happy Harvest! — Tylerjfrancke (talk) 19:09, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

The "Celtic influences" section is about how folk customs and beliefs in Celtic-speaking regions influenced the Halloween that we know today. That's what the section has been about for over a year. In these Celtic-speaking regions, 31 October–1 November has been the date of a major festival since before All Hallows existed. In the Celtic languages, 31 October–1 November has always been referred to as Samhain, Calan Gaeaf, or variations therof. Historians hav used these names to refer to 'Halloween' customs in the Celtic-speaking regions right up to the 19th century. Many of the customs can't be clearly linked to Christian dogma; for example propitiating fairies or nature spirits, bonfires that were deemed to hav protective and cleansing powers, divination rituals, people going about in costume (or even drest as the opposite gender), the Láir Bhán, and so forth. That's partly why they're not in the section about "Christian influences". Folklorists didn't get around to recording most of the customs until the 17th-19th centuries, so most of the section deals with that period.

However, you've shortened the section considerably by trying to make it be about the ancient Celts only. This seems to be based on the mistaken belief that "Celtic" and "Celtic-speaking" can only refer to ancient times. You moved everything that can't be traced to ancient times and put in a Christian interpretation for what remained. Firstly, there was no need to move the content. The wording made it clear that the section wasn't primarily about ancient times. Also, the content was about historic customs, so it belongs (where it was) in the "History" section. Secondly, I've no problem with mentioning Christian interpretations, but we should be basing them on scholarly sources. For example, you added the following: "other scholars argue that Hallowe'en bonfires are solely a Christian custom [...] with fire being used to scare witches of their awaiting punishment in hell". The source for that is a book by a Christian evangelist that seeks to "Scripturally and Theologically Justify" Halloween. If we're going to use such sources we should be clear about their intentions.

In summary:

• The "History" section is about the history of Halloween and how it developed into the festival we know today. This is where most of the content about historic, pre-20th century customs should be.
  • The "Celtic influences" subsection is about how folk customs and beliefs from Celtic-speaking regions may hav influenced the Halloween that we know today. These are folk customs that didn't come from Christian dogma, or whose Christian origin is disputed.
  • The "Christian influences" subsection is about how Christian dogma, and customs derived from it, may hav influenced the Halloween that we know today.
• The rest of the article is, or should be, about Halloween as it is today.

I've moved the content back into the section and, to avoid any confusion with the ancient Celts, I've re-named it "Gaelic and Welsh influence". I havn't removed any of the content you added but I've re-factored some of it.

As for the Láir Bhán and Muck Olla, it says on pages 308–309 of the Journal of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland, Volume 2 (1855): "It is not many years since, on Samhain's eve, 31st October, a rustic procession perambulated the district between Ballycotton and Trabolgan, along the coast. The parties represented themselves as messengers of the Muck Olla [...] at the head of the procession was a figure enveloped in a white robe or sheet, having, as it were, the head of a mare, this personage was called the Láir Bhán, 'the white mare', he was a sort of president or master of the ceremonies. A long string of verses was recited at each house. In the second distich were distinctly mentioned two names savouring strongly of Paganism". ~Asarlaí 20:00, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

My main concern is that the distinction between the ancient festival of Samhain and the celebration of Halloween in Britain and Ireland in the modern era has been blurred in that section. I clearly understand that "many of the customs can't be clearly linked to Christian dogma." However, if you're going to talk about observances that happened in the 1700s and 1800s, only some of these will be linked to paganism; others will be linked to Christianity. This is because the celebration of All Hallows Eve had largely usurped the original celebration of Samhain. My intention is not to keep on reverting one another so I will let most of your additions stand (though I still think that it would be better if the section just talked about ancient Celtic influence). However, there are a couple of things that I'd like to refactor that I hope you won't object to. Maodhóg (talk) 20:45, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

The section isn't mixing the ancient festival with the later one. It discusses 31 October customs from the Middle Ages onward that were specific to the 'Celtic' regions, and briefly explains how many of them probably descend from ancient Samhain customs/beliefs. It makes sense to discuss and explain these customs together, in one place. Also, let's remember that Samhain, Bealtaine, Imbolc and Lughnasa weren't just ancient pagan festivals (as I explained in my last post).

I think the section names themselvs hav caused some confusion. I can see that, by having one section named "Celtic influence" and another named "Christian influence", we might be implying that the first is only about "ancient pagan influence". I've dealt with this by changing "Celtic influence" to "Gaelic and Welsh influence" and by re-wording it to make it clear what it's about. However, maybe we should also re-name the other section. It's about how Christian dogma, and customs clearly derived from it, may hav influenced the Halloween that we know today. Most of the customs originated in, or are mainly associated with, England. So we could re-name it "English Christian influence". That way we're not implying that the Celtic folk customs were altogether un-Christian. ~Asarlaí 02:37, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

My original concern, as I mentioned above, resonates with your last sentence "That way we're not implying that the Celtic folk customs were altogether un-Christian." I strongly disagree with renaming the second section, because All Hallows' Eve was observed by the Church Universal, not just in England. Italy is mentioned in the paragraph and I also added a sentence each on France and Spain. I think that I've addressed the issue you speak of (and that I spoke of before) by making mention of Celtic Christianity and adding Jack Santino's comment in the first section. Celtic Christianity is unique in the sense that it developed apart from the influence of Christianity in continental Europe. That being said, it seems that the article is fine now. Maodhóg (talk) 05:46, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Why did you make all of these sweeping changes without getting any consensus at all? 98.209.42.117 (talk) 08:46, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

"All Hallows' Evening"?

The opening paragraph states that Hallowe'en is a contraction of "All Hallows' Evening", and is sourced with a 19th century Scottish history by Thomas Thomson and Charles Annandale. The following quote is cited as the reasoning behind the contraction:

"Of the stated rustic festivals peculiar to Scotland the most important was Hallowe'en, a contraction for All-hallow Evening, or the evening of All-Saints Day, the annual return of which was a season for joy and festivity."

The problem is that I don't believe the source is correct. Per the Wikipedia article on All Saints' Day, that feast has been celebrated on November 1st since approximately the 8th century. As Hallowe'en takes place the evening prior, it is the eve of All Saints' Day, not the evening.

I believe the reference to this abbreviation is incorrect and should be removed. 74.215.188.148 (talk) 21:04, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, it's six o' one, half a dozen o' the other, in'it? It's the "eve-ning" before All Saints. Same applies to Midsummer Eve/Midsummer-Evening/Midsummer Night...that's the eve before Midsummer Day. I think (but could be wrong) that it harks back to an older way of reckoning time, where the evening prior to daylight is part of the next day. Rather how the Jewish calendar operates even today: the next day begins at sundown, not at midnight or dawn, e.g., Saturday begins at sundown on everybody else's Friday. Eastcote (talk) 01:39, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Goidelic and Brythonic influence

I changed the paragraph title 'Gaelic and Welsh influence' to 'Goidelic and Brythonic influence'. Its more balanced less nationalistic as no one culture or people had a specific influence for the harvest festival over any other. Especially as the Brittonic use is found in Wales as Calan Gaeaf, in Cornwall Kalan Gwav and in Brittany as Kalan Goañv. It would be just as wrong to state 'Gaelic and Cornish influence' or 'Gaelic and Brittanys influences'. Goildelic also includes the Gaels of Mann, Scotland and Ireland. Uthican (talk) 05:17, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

"Gaelic and Welsh" is accurate. The section is about customs practised by the Gaels (in Ireland, Scotland and Mann) and the Welsh. It doesn't discuss Cornish and Breton customs. If something about those customs is added then we might consider re-naming it.

Also, "Goidelic" is a linguistic term, referring to the Goidelic languages. It's almost never used to refer to the culture. ~Asarlaí 14:23, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

""Gaelic and Welsh" is accurate" Have you read the section that states the festival was known as Kalan Gwav in Cornwall and Kalan Goañv in Britany? Also Gaelic could be termed as a linguistic term too. The proper term would be Gael and Britonic or Gael and Brythonic. I suggest 'Insular Celtic Influences' as seen in the 'Insular Art' page to remove any nationalistic tags.Uthican (talk) 04:20, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

This is interesting, but I'll let you two discuss this. My thoughts are that the word 'Insular' would not be appropriate, especially because the culture and beliefs of Wales and Ireland were influenced by the arrival of Christianity in those regions, which in turn may have influenced the customs of Halloween. Maodhóg (talk) 05:51, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Halloween Costumes

There are numerous problems that are occurring with Halloween costumes these days ranging from the fact that most are highly inappropriate for the age groups that they are geared towards, they are very genderized, not to mention the character they are supposed to me recreating is often misrepresented. Adie Nelson writes in, The Pink Dragon Is Female "the importance of participation in the paid-work world and financial success for men and of physical attractiveness and marriage for women is reinforced through costume names that reference masculine costumes by occupational roles or titles but describe feminine costumes via appearance and/or relationships..." Nelson continues the discussion about Halloween costumes by comparing female and male villains. For males their villainous costumes are often right on point, where as female villain costumes tend to be over sexualized and almost erotic. Halloween costumes these days are over sexualized and very gendered, even for the small children that should be having the most fun with this holiday.

Nelson, Adie. "The Pink Dragon Is Female." Psychology Of Women Quarterly 24.2 (2000): 137. Academic Search Complete. Web. 24 Oct. 2013.

--Tarak7 (talk) 00:09, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Alternative dates?

Are there other places that celebrate Halloween on a date other than the 31st of October? I know that in Kilmarnock in the west of Scotland it's generally celebrated on the last Friday of October, apparently due to factory workers and miners being paid on a Friday, therefore having money to spend on sweets and treats that might otherwise have been spent by the time the 31st came. None of the surrounding towns seem to have adopted this variable date for Halloween, and I've never heard of anywhere else doing it.