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Untitled thread

This page is biased to the right. For example, the use of scare quotes around the "global elite" phrase. I am thinking about editing this page.

How are those scare quotes? Reference to a global elite is ridiculous, and it's obvious Prouty wasn't the brighest bulb in the circuit (if you've read his JFK assassination book you'll know what I mean). I don't see it biased towards either side of the political spectrum, but biased towards the side of logic and rational thought. By the way, if it were biased to the right, it would be a glowing article talking about Prouty's examination of the truth behind certain events (as Prouty and his ilk are extreme right-wing). Prouty was not a man who took Occam's Razor to heart. Sign your comments in the future. GreatGatsby 21:47, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
"...as Prouty and his ilk are extreme right-wing..." Look, the Chipster (who is the source of all the bilge about Prouty being right-wing) thinks Ralph Nader and Ramsey Clark are right-wing. Prouty wasn't right-wing either. The only problem is the Chipster and those who take his Enver Hoxha worshipping ultraleftist dogma seriously. Such as yourself, for example.

Jim Garrison did meet Prouty, but not until well after the trial.

It's a disgrace that wikipedia has linked this page to Shinley and McAdams. These two "experts" are merely experts in the area of character assassination. Prouty was a man experience and knowledge, inventivity and honesty, and above all: somoene with an open mind. Yes, Prouty had an open mind about many ideas that differ from what is commonly accepted as true. Unfortunately, the simple-minded conformists among us will always characterize people as crackpots. If you want to know who Prouty was and what he truly represented, go out and read his works. His record is impeccable. To those who truly knew him, his credibilty is beyond question. Shame on the author.

It's a disgrace that wikipedia has linked this page to Shinley and McAdams. These two "experts" are merely experts in the area of character assassination. Prouty was a man of experience and knowledge, inventivity and honesty, and above all: someone with an open mind. Yes, Prouty had an open mind about many ideas that differ from what is commonly accepted as true. Unfortunately, the simple-minded conformists among us will always characterize such people as crackpots. If you want to know who Prouty was and what he truly represented, go out and read his works and study the man's career. His record is impeccable. To those who truly knew him, his credibilty is beyond question. Shame on the author.

---

Prouty details the formation and development of the CIA, the origins of the Cold War, the Vietnam War, the John F. Kennedy assassination and other conspiracy theories. The CIA, the origins of the Cold War, the Vietnam War, and the John F. Kennedy assassination are conspiracy theories? Hmmm...

I worked for Col. L. Fletcher Prouty for 10 years. I knew him very well while I take the time to correct lies and slanderous links "wikipedia editor Gamaliel" contiues to delete them I can only conclude he condons the character assassination Or, like wikipedia itself has no idea about Col. Prouty or truth.

The Col. L. Fletcher Prouty Reference Site is available at www.prouty.org The problem is I can't correct errors fact or opinion because Gamaliel calls this vandalization. The whole idea here of correction is backwards. If I point out that Col. Fletcher had in fact met Jim Garrison in person, and in fact spoken to him many times, written many many letters back and forth.

Wikipedia's openness raises the risk that articles may be manipulated by anyone without being accountable for it. He also argues that Wikipedia's prominence in search engine results gives those with a personal agenda a potential platform for making libelous statements with impunity. Brandt has said of Wikipedia that on Wikipedia Watch that he seeks identities of Wikipedia contributors and administrators in part because, if he decides to sue, he is unsure who to sue. Brandt also criticizes the anonymity of certain Wikipedia editors and administrators, and maintains a page where he attempts to obtain the identities of the anonymous editors with whom he has come into conflict. He says "the editors and administrators feel that they are untouchable" (as of mid December 2005) and that disclosing their identities would increase accountability of the information they write.

Below is a note about Fletcher Prouty not being the "brightest bulb in the circuit" by the user great gadsby and then has the nerve to say "Sign your comments in the future" What a joke, anyone knowing anything about Fletcher knows he is a critic of the CIA after working in the Pentagon for 9 years (1955-1964) of his 23 years in the military. He was the Focal Point officer between the CIA and the Air Force. He writes about what he experienced first hand. And he is not exteme right wing at all. That is if you knew him and I knew him very well, not this propoganda that wikipedia seems to have to allow or condon, I'm not sure which is which. Like I said if I correct or edit this page about Fletcher, User Gamaliel threatens I will be banned for vandalization.

Althought I did notice wikipedia editor Gamaliel has a NAZI swastika flag on his talk page. And if the great gadsby, and gamaliel request signing at least sign with your real name!

These are my comments, Len Osanic 70.71.5.183 20:27, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Your comments about vandalism are not quite correct. You are welcome to edit the article and add your comments here. What is vandalism is removing or altering the comments of others on this talk page and removing material from the article simply because you personally disapprove of it. I'm sorry you feel that those links are "slanderous", but WP articles must provide information from all sides of an issue, from both supporters and detractors. Gamaliel 05:19, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with len Osanic that it's a disgrace that wikipedia has linked Prouty's page so prominently to McAdams and Shinley. I've noticed a tremendous effort to publish disinformation about the JFK assassination on the internet, in books and on major network programs in recent years. Here we are 42 years after the assassination and the cover-up continues. I'm very discouraged to learn that the editor who took issue with your corrections had a Nazi swastika on his page.

The McAdams page has misrepresentations of what Prouty said, which it then strikes down, such as that he claims to have bought and delivered the 3 'Bay of Pigs ships'. Wikipedia is often edited by people who want to discredit 'conspiracy nuts' such as those that want to claim that jet fuel won't burn steel, and that the twin towers falling at free-fall speed was somehow unusual, and that the 'plane that hit the Pentagon' should have been caught on tape... or that it was caught on tape but was confiscated. Those dang nutty conspiracy theorisers... User:Pedant 05:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This poorly worded sentence is hilarious.

"... and other conspiracy theories"? This sentence needs to be reworded as the overall impression is that the CIA, the Cold War and the Vietnam War are conspiracy theories themselves. Whoever wrote this sentence needs to be slapped upside the head. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.193.49.25 (talk • contribs)

Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make whatever changes you feel are needed. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in! (Although there are some reasons why you might like to…) The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. Gamaliel 21:46, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No mention that Prouty was a West Point graduate, nor that he was a succesful tank officer in WW 2?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.126.132.34 (talk • contribs)

Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. Gamaliel 22:31, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Odd sentence

Some minor disagreement seems to be swirling around this sentence in particular: "He has repeated (with apparent approval[citation needed]) claims that Franklin Roosevelt did not die a natural death" - I would suggest that this be edited to something similar to "He claimed..."

I am not moving to edit it right away because I'm interested to see what the rationale for "(with apparent approval)" is. I think it would also be worthwhile to edit various actions attributed to him in the present tense to past tense. --Edwin Herdman 07:47, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there is a citation for that assertion, which I posted. Prouty cites a report to this effect, and treats it as entirely reliable, expressing no skepticism. Here is the cited page. An editor can read it and judge whether there is "apparent approval:" http://www.prouty.org/coment11.html -- John McAdams

Misleading Paragraph needs editing

The paragraph that John McAdams added:

Prouty has taken controversial positions on a wide range of issues. He has repeated Stalin's claims that Franklin Roosevelt did not die a natural death, but rather was poisoned by Churchill.[citation needed] He subscribes to the theory that oil is not derived from fossils but from carbon deposits deep within the Earth (abiogenic petroleum origin theory)[citation needed] and that the U.S. government was responsible for the deaths of People's Temple members at Jonestown.[1]

has a couple of problems. First, by saying that Prouty "repeated" Stalin's claims, it makes it sound as if Prouty was making the same claims. That is false. Prouty simply cited Elliott Roosevelt's story about Stalin's claims, which by the way, was also written and signed by Elliott Roosevelt and appeared in the February 9, 1986 issue of the nationwide Sunday supplement magazine "Parade." If anything, that story belongs on the Elliott Roosevelt biography page, not Colonel Prouty's. Secondly, Prouty did not say, "the U.S. government was responsible for the deaths of People's Temple members at Jonestown." He did however, indicate that he suspected involvement of US Intelligence. It really feels like the truth is being stretched a little to portray Prouty as a kook, and that kind subjective tone doesn't belong in the article. --Zach 23:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Somebody (presumably a Prouty supporter) removed a link to my site from the "External links" section of the page. I've put it back, and hope you can protect it against future valdalism. Maybe you should just lock the page. (John McAdams)
Sorry, Wikipedia policies prohibit us from locking the page to protect a preferred version. I will try to keep a better eye on it though. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 05:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That will be appreciated. (John McAdams) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.160.247.65 (talk) 06:01, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, somebody *again* deleted the link to my page critical of Prouty. It really is a problem when partisans are able to take out data and information they find incongenial. (John McAdams) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.48.30.18 (talk) 21:12, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That was me I think. I removed it again per WP:EL. --Tom (talk) 21:21, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's a perfect valid link that is in no way prohibited by EL, sorry. Gamaliel (talk) 20:14, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Don't be sorry. --Tom (talk) 20:21, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What the hell is going on here?? You have a link to a pro-Prouty site, and it's left alone, but you seem not to like my link to my page critiquing Prouty? Are you aware that the standard reference books say that my site is the best JFK assassination site the web? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._McAdams

Do we have a pro-Prouty editor and an anti-Prouty editer fighting with each other? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.30.181.230 (talk) 03:04, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think its that sinister. This is a content dispute over which External links are appropriate for this article. --Tom (talk) 16:00, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think there should be pretty a compelling reason to let John McAdams leave a link to his page on Prouty in the external links section. The page, is, by its own admission an attempt at character assassination. While much of its content says more about McAdam's brand of tortured logic, naive appeals to authority and bullying style than about Prouty--several of the claims are outright lies or gross distortions. On the other hand the link to the so-called "pro-Prouty site" directs one to Prouty's own writings which allows the reader to make up his own mind as to whether Prouty is as McAdam's charges, "a crackpot." (Moreover, as it is, w/o the link, McAdam's questionably-sourced vilifications of Prouty have already found there way all over the entry.)Detmcphierson (talk) 10:01, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm

Anyone got a reliable secondary source on his views on HIV/AIDS? John Nevard (talk) 15:57, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Something like this, for example, would probably not be acceptable. John Nevard (talk) 16:09, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion of FDR death assertion

The article stated that Prouty believed Churchill assassinated FDR and cited "Who Killed Franklin D. Roosevelt?" as its source. Apart from the provocative rhetorical question in the title, however, no claim is made in the article by Prouty that FDR was assassinated by Churchill or killed in general. Prouty seems to simply cite Kermit Roosevelt's anecdote (previously published) and make the following statement as his thesis:

"We all know that there are amazing stories that can not be found in the history books. That is what I am saying here."

Prouty's piece therefore is more of a question mark. Without further evidence from some of his writings, the view that Churchill killed FDR cannot be attributed to him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Heinrich66 (talk • contribs) 22:30, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See above on this talk page for related information. Talk:L._Fletcher_Prouty#Misleading_Paragraph_needs_editing--TGC55 (talk) 03:03, 17 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Poorly sourced material

I just noticed that this guy is dead, so no BLP issuses, but I did remove some poorly sourced material. I will post it here. --Tom (talk) 15:09, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the section:

He subscribed to the theory that oil is not derived from fossils but from carbon deposits deep within the Earth (abiogenic petroleum origin theory)The Fletcher Prouty Commentary, and that U.S. Intelligence agencies may have been involved in the deaths of People's Temple members at Jonestown."Revisiting the Jonestown tragedy" He claimed that Korean airlines Flight 007 was downed by "an explosive device" planted aboard by the CIA, rather than being shot down by a Soviet interceptor.More Proutyisms

He believed that Kennedy was killed by forces allied with the Federal Reserve Bank because Kennedy was moving against them.Did the Fed Kill Kennedy? --Tom (talk) 15:13, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how in the world you consider this "poorly sourced." Each of the links leads to the exact statements I cited. The one about how oil isn't a fossil fuel got mangled, however. He is the correct version:

http://www.prouty.org/coment13.html

(John McAdams) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.48.30.18 (talk) 21:20, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Article has one citation?

Seems a litle slim, even by our standards :) and its from prouty.org? I guess the only good news is that this isn't a BLP...--Tom (talk) 21:26, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I removed two links per WP:EL. --Tom (talk) 20:18, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

--Tom (talk) 20:21, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Its groundhog day..again..--Threeafterthree (talk) 02:32, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Its groundhog day..again..--Threeafterthree (talk) 02:52, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can you explain why you think this link violates WP:EL criteria? Gamaliel (talk) 04:29, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would consider #1, 2, 11, 13 of the no links section. Maybe the external links noticeboard could decide this? Also, considering McAdams past history, we can certainly aim higher than his personal web site. Anyways, --Threeafterthree (talk) 21:15, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1 - I disagree, and this one pretty much comes down to opinion.
  • 2 - Can you substantiate your allegation that this website "misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research"?
  • 11 - "Links to blogs, personal web pages and most fansites, except those written by a recognized authority." McAdams is clearly a recognized authority, as can be substantiated with the information and references in his Wikipedia article.
  • 13 - "Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject". Obviously inapplicable as the article is specifically about Prouty.
Thank you for spelling out your reasoning. Gamaliel (talk) 21:35, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
McAdams research is unverified at best and inaccurate at worst. Are you aware of McAdams' less than stellar history when it coms to research? McAdams being a "recognized authority" is very questionable. Anyways, I will defer to the EL board. --Threeafterthree (talk) 23:35, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I am unfamiliar with these allegations. It would be helpful if you would substantiate them in some fashion as I have asked. As it stands, the only solid references we have to his work are the ones in his article which cite repeated praise of his work. Gamaliel (talk) 23:59, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Again, as I said above, maybe you missed it, most of McAdams "work" is unverified, thats all. He has his opinions and theories which he is intitled to. I really don't want to turn this into an examination of McAdams, rather its about if using his personal web site as an external link for articles other than his own bio is appropriate, thats all. --Threeafterthree (talk) 01:08, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mean to turn this into a hobbyhorse, but in keeping with my observations in the above (first) External Links section I am removing the link to McAdam's page because it is a fringe source. McAdam's stated agenda is to paint those who question the official JFK "lone assassin" theory crazy. In my humble opinion McAdam's work should be only used as source reference when it rises to the purely factual.Detmcphierson (talk) 17:54, 28 January 2012 (UTC)----[reply]

Can you justify your characterization of this source as fringe under the criteria at WP:FRINGE? As I've previously noted, I believe Professor McAdams qualifies as an expert and reliable source under Wikipedia criteria, and his credentials and third party praise for his website can be found at the article John C. McAdams. Gamaliel (talk) 20:21, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm unmoved by both McAdam's collected third-party praise and his credentials. A cursory examination of McAdam's writings related to his stated expert subject, the JFK assassination, again and again shows a reliance on ad-hominem attacks and unfair labeling to limit reasonable debate. McAdams will gladly impugn a man's integrity or sanity (as he does with Prouty) if he had the temerity to question the Warren Report, which McAdams--seemingly alone in academia--views as inviolable. Indeed it would take a much more prolific wiki editor than I to blunt his voice here--which makes up for what it lacks in temperance with volume--on matters revolving the JFK assassination. This time however, since McAdams has ventured away from the JFK assassination into the realm of more general biographical matters, I'm comfortable again removing his opinion on Prouty. 98.14.147.172 (talk) 02:57, 19 February 2012 (UTC) I should have signed the above. Detmcphierson (talk) 03:31, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless of your dismissal of those things, those things are valid criteria for weighing the inclusion of a link, while your personal dislike of McAdams is not. I don't think your comments have really added anything to our discussion here. Gamaliel (talk) 07:33, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I see you changed the name of the link though. I'm removing it again until you at least address my concerns, whether you "think [my] comments have really added anything to our discussion here" or not. That's an obvious bullying tactic--similar to one McAdams would use--actually. How does McAdams qualify as an expert on Prouty's life?Detmcphierson (talk) 21:32, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Bullying? Don't be absurd. If I was bullying you I wouldn't be making efforts to bridge the gap between us like changing that title or engaging you in discussion even while you level ridiculous accusations. I've already addressed your concerns about McAdams' qualifications, but you've already dismissed the ample evidence of them, so I'm not sure what else there is to do here. Gamaliel (talk) 00:24, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Since the last link recently added conveys much the same information (albeit in a slightly more sober style, and with a MSM clip to bolster some of its arguments) I'm wondering why its so important to you that the McAdams link stays as well. Again, I'm removing the McAdams link until you explain how he qualifies as an expert on the life and works of Prouty--as the page touches on much more than McAdams' stated line of expertise, the JFK assassination. I'm also curious to see your explanation as to what McAdams opinions add to the entry.Detmcphierson (talk) 06:51, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Why is it so important to you that the McAdams link be removed? I don't particularly care about the link, but I am strongly opposed to information from experts being discarded on the basis of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. I've already laid out McAdams' qualifications and you've already dismissed them, so what's the point of insisting I go down that road again? Besides, if you were concerned about qualifications, you would raise questions about the qualifications of Dave Reitzes as well, but since you do not, then it's obvious that's not really the issue here, is it? Until you raise an issue that relates to Wikipedia practices or policies or explain how McAdams' credentials in this area are inadequate, then we're just spinning our wheels. Gamaliel (talk) 07:05, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know who David Reitzes is but I didn't object to the link because it seems to lean heavily on a MSM source, namely an Esquire story by Robert Anson. I wrote to you that I would stop removing the McAdams link if you would at least provide me the courtesy of explaining how McAdams expertise stretches beyond the JFK assassination into all the areas Prouty had opinions on. (Geology for example.) As others have noted on this forum, McAdams agenda (impugning those who take issue with the Warren Report) makes people take a closer look at his links. But even I would have to admit that McAdams is an expert--of sorts--on the JFK assassination. But the Prouty link goes beyond that. Detmcphierson (talk) 20:52, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see anything on that page which requires any special exptertise in geology or a particular field of science. The word geology does not even appear. Whatever his alleged agenda may be, his expertise clearly covers the relevant areas. Gamaliel (talk) 21:29, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Also, since your reverts are becoming more frequent, please be aware of the three revert rule and edit accordingly. Thank you. Gamaliel (talk) 21:31, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Since McAdams is such a controversial figure, and I have no agenda, I feel I'm on pretty solid ground with my reverts, but thanks for the warning sir. Still, I don't understand your point about the use of the term geology but I'm sure it has a meaning beyond just distraction. Again, my point: McAdams has a bit of fun with Prouty's outre opinions on fossil fuels--and several other subjects. If McAdams is not an expert on geology or these other subjects why should his taunts be allowed here?98.14.147.172 (talk) 22:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC) I forgot to sign the above. Detmcphierson (talk) 22:38, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
One link pointing out Prouty's comments on fossil fuels does not require a doctorate in geology. The rest of the page is all material well within McAdams' area of expertese. If this and complaints about an alleged agenda are all you have to offer, then this is what is just a distraction. Gamaliel (talk) 22:43, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Besides the Kennedy assassination, what is McAdams area of expertise? I'm truly curious. Has he done research on Prouty? It seems McAdams just picking out snippets from the web and wagging his finger. Hardly scholarly. Is his stated agenda really of no concern considering we are striving for no POV? In any event, you seem to have an awful lot vested in defending him here. And why aren't you contended with the Reitzes link since it conveys similar information? Detmcphierson (talk) 23:31, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You seem desperate to make this personal, perhaps because you can find no policy based reasons for deleting the link, but sorry to disappoint you, I have no agenda here. I have an awful lot vested in Wikipedia. Eight years. That's my motivation. Do you have anything new to add? If not, I think we are done here. Gamaliel (talk) 23:56, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You seem desperate to not answer the question at hand--about McAdams' expertise. And if there is a consensus here, it reads discontent with the McAdams link. I don't know what you mean by "personal," I don't know you and I never heard of John McAdams until I saw his overheated link marring an otherwise temperate encyclopedia entry. Your heartfelt salute to Wikipedia is moving for sure though. I'm glad you're "done," but I have my doubts that will hold when I delete the link again.Detmcphierson (talk) 00:20, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't mean that I was done inserting the link, I meant I was done talking to you. I feel that I've more than made the case for the link and addressed your concerns. I will continue to replace the deleted link but I will no longer respond to your snide remarks or stick around to be a target for them. If you wish to have a civil conversation about any new concerns which you might have that have not yet been addressed, I will gladly respond to any reasonable, civil, and non-personal comments made here or on my user talk page. Also, please remember and adhere to the three revert rule. Thanks. Gamaliel (talk) 01:07, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Alas, poor Wikipedia. Perhaps someone with better stamina than I will take this issue up again. But for the record, I have nothing personal against you (or McAdams ((except I dislike his rhetorical style from what I've read)) and for the life of me I cannot see where you've made the case for this link except by referring to Wiki sub-rules and a list of Freshman courses in which McAdams is a rotating lecturer.Detmcphierson (talk) 03:03, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've changed my mind. I'm going to continue to delete the link until you make your case for McAdams' expertise. Many, many other Wiki users have been angered by this link as well it seems from reading this page. I've also deleted the Reitzes link b/c it seems to be little more than a blog post comprised of an Esquire article and further character assassination. Its just not right that a man who served his country honorably has to be impugned b/c he held unpopular opinions.Detmcphierson (talk) 23:55, 22 February 2012 (UTC) Lastly, just for the record Gamaliel, are you the same person that wrote, "Wikipedia accepts a [small] shelf from which we can draw sources to document historical fact" to buttress your edits on the Lee Harvey Oswald entry? Seems like a very sound sentiment to me; I'm wondering why its now only being honored in the breach.Detmcphierson (talk) 01:37, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

did not read his book?

Saying he is "not the brightest bulb" is very wrong and stating that is clear because his book is wrong. His book was superbly written and very well sourced. It is not write to say that Leroy Fletcher Prouty was "not the brightest" and his book is also very good and you should actually read his book before insulting him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.97.161 (talk) 18:09, 7 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

do you realy belive anything from a man like prouty who stated himself that the US military has captured 2 flying sourceres ? well he also could have said he saw santa clause in the sky with rendeers. hes just a jerk knowing nothing at all liking for media repr. nothing more....like oswalds so called cell mate or ed howard or people like them... its all just a big joke to belive anything people like these spread arround.

sorry - my opinion and fact. "timothy X"

Just thought I'd chime up, because I think there is overwhelming evidence of what Prouty pointed out in The Secret team, about CIA gaining the ability to place their assets into other government agencies, offices, committees, etc., covertly. In the case of FAA, this may be appropriate. In the case of FDA, it is absolutely not. In the case of the Indiana Governorship, it is absolutely not. In the case of the Presidency & VPresidency, it is absolutely not. New Boston Tea Party was here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.69.252.105 (talk) 01:52, 20 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Bias in moderator constant deletions...

WP has a page on Prouty thus the first link should be to the mans own website which I run and maintain.

Now John Mcadams runs a hit site on Prouty

And at this point WP condones a hit external link Prouty Crackpot but does not allow link to official page. ?

Now I assume that you a have taken two minutes and looked through www.prouty.org Do you not feel any obligation to report some is wrong here If WP was neutral you should demand equal links.

my complaint in 2006 in the TALK page is follwed by many who point out mcadams slander tactics

gamaliel says he has to include the mcadams attack link so WP shows both sides.

The index at least lets people see what Fletcher Prouty wrote, answered email lectures, interviews, there etc

please don't take my word look at www.prouty.org and tell me how anyone would describe the website as fringe?

Is not any moderator concerned that a Prouty Crackpot link is allowed... when the index to "The Col. L. Fletcher Prouty Reference Site" was called "Fringe" as reason for removal.

Otherwise what is it that WP stands for?

I thought that after someone at WP saw what was happening they would be appalled. You don't have to read all about Fletcher Prouty to see something is really wrong here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Len osanic (talk • contribs) 21:30, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You really need to explain why your web site is to be considered official. What makes it so?
You ask what makes it "fringe"? I can offer one answer: It is possible that the website gives itself an appearance of being a fringe site by hosting attack pages on Wikipedia editors, making it seem more like a personal project or vendetta than an official resource of information. Removal of such pages would likely go far toward accepting a link to it here. ~Amatulić (talk) 05:46, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]


To answer, the website called "The Col. L. Fletcher Prouty Reference Site" is official because of the content. the URL is www.prouty.org It is where Fletcher Prouty answered personal email sent to him, articles, audio interviews, video, all one has to do is browse through it to see that. The other point made seems to lack fair play. Here WP allows a "Prouty is a crackpot" in external links. It is allowed, But "The Col. L. Fletcher Prouty Reference Site" is not? This basic point has to be addressed. A reference is made to sub folder not anything to do with Fletcher Prouty. I would ask WP moderators if they allow mcadams attack page in the external links, how can they not allow Prouty's main page which was accepted under the White Listing review process. This was the decision after all, why the white listing was granted to the "index" page. I ask anyone to look over www.prouty.org to recognize that it is the official resource of information on anything Fletcher Prouty. That is articles, audio interviews, letters, commentary.

Len Osanic — Preceding unsigned comment added by Len osanic (talk • contribs) 07:27, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User:Len osanic, we have a guideline on Wikipedia called Other stuff exists, which basically means that you must make your case on its own merits, not by simply referencing other things. You must make a positive case for inclusion of your website, not merely demand that we included it because we included the website of Professor McAdams. Your website suffers in that direct comparison regardless, as Professor McAdams is a professional historian with published works on the topic of the JFK assassination, while you have no similar credentials or publications that I am aware of. If you do, please reference them when you make your case for inclusion.
As I see it, there are several obstacles to inclusion at this time. Your claim that this is an "official" website is dubious, as Prouty has been deceased for 12 years. That would be like someone setting up an "official" website for Douglas McArthur or Patton. Someone making such a claim should have the credentials to do so, such as a professional historian or a published author on the topic. Also, the website seems to have relatively little material on Prouty. Prouty's books are instead links to amazon or other websites, and there are a few articles, but many are copyrighted newspaper articles which I doubt you have permission to post on your website. There are also links to purchase t-shirts and CDs unrelated to Prouty, which leaves the impression that this website is a personal venture and not an official one. Also, using the "official" Prouty website to host vicious personal attacks unrelated to Prouty furthers the impression that this website is a personal venture and not an official one. Removing these personal attack pages would go a long way to convincing Wikipedia editors of the professionalism of your website. Gamaliel (talk) 17:17, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As I stated below, I don't think any of these are dealbreakers for the inclusion of prouty.org as an external link. If there were a dozen separate Prouty-oriented sites, the rather minor issues you have raised might serve to weed this one out and include others. As it is, prouty.org seems to be the only site even remotely interested in Prouty, to the extent of including original audio, video, and printed works either created by him or including him. While it is possible that copyright might be infringed in any of these cases, I'm not sure that it is, or should be, the task of conscientious Wikipedia editors to worry about the possibility of copyright infringement on external sites when there is simply a suspicion. Naturally, there is a different standard when photographs or audio are included on a Wiki page directly. The weight of basic benefit to the article from inclusion ought to count for more than these other minor problems.
On the issue with Prof. John McAdams -- which is in some ways irrelevant to the matter here -- it is possible to overstate McAdams' credentials when it comes to the JFK assassination. It seems true that McAdams runs a JFK-assassination-related website, and it is also apparently true that he has been interviewed on television on the JFK assassination. However, it is significant that there is a decided lack of peer-reviewed publication from McAdams on the Kennedy assassination. (Indeed, his only peer-reviewed publication history seems devoted to the death penalty.) Apart from a book in 2011, it is unclear whether McAdams has ever published on the topic. While the 2011 book seems directed at a popular audience, the fact that he has not apparently written for a peer-reviewed journal on the topic combined with the fact that his specialization is in political science and not history would suggest that his only qualifications for being an authority on the JFK assassination are that: a) he has published a single book on the topic; b) he has appeared on television; c) he is a tenured professor in a different, if related field: political science, not history. Seen in this light, a whole host of others are really not less qualified. It is highly unusual for a professor called an authority on a topic not to have a long list of publications in the academic literature on that topic. Hochichi667 (talk) 23:28, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Individually, these might be dismissed as minor issues, but the combined weight of them is difficult to overcome, especially considering the relatively low amount of original, non-copyright violation material on Prouty featured on the website. I do agree that the comparison to McAdams is largely irrelevant, and I only bring it up because that seems to be Osanic's main argument for inclusion. You raise some good points about McAdams but whatever you think about McAdams' claim to expertise, he certainly has more of a claim than Osanic. Gamaliel (talk) 23:03, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Again, it is not enough to *suspect* that original documentary evidence is in violation of copyright, is it? Here I think we should appeal to Wikipedia's own stated rules. If you could supply the relevant rules on external links and possible copyright violation, I'd be obliged. The fact remains that prouty.org seems like the only site currently on the Web that offers original material of Prouty's in the form of interviews, articles, and so on. Your assertion that there is a 'relatively low' amount of material of value is inapt given that no other site online seems to offer any material of Prouty's at all. In which case, the amount of content is relatively high.
Second, regarding McAdams: Regardless of whether McAdams is considered an 'authority' on the JFK assassination according to Wikipedia's standards, there is no basis that I can discover for supposing him an authority on the subject of this entry, L. Fletcher Prouty. Do you know whether McAdams has written a biography of Prouty or published on Prouty's life in any journals? If so, then I stand corrected. Prouty may be, according to this entry, tangentially related to the JFK assassination for having published opinions on it after the fact. In which case, McAdams might be referred to for Prouty's JFK-related views (and in this narrow context alone). But to include an external link to McAdams on Prouty when McAdams' credentials on Prouty are non-existent (Prouty is a step removed from JFK, for which McAdams' credentials are already dubious) while at the same time denying a link to a site that has original Prouty material seems questionable. For example: If I come to the Prouty entry seeking biographical information about Prouty, I may be totally unaware of his views on JFK. I might, for instance, simply be researching important figures at the Pentagon in the '50s and '60s. Now, when I get to the External Links hoping for more information, what would I rather see? A piece critical of Prouty in the narrow context of his JFK views? Or a direct link to material of Prouty's including articles, audio recordings, etc.? Considering also that when I do a search on 'Fletcher Prouty' essentially two sites come up -- this entry and prouty.org -- the article here is simply asking for someone to exit Wikipedia altogether and use another source (e.g. Google). Hochichi667 (talk) 07:07, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Copyrights: "if you know or reasonably suspect that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work....Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States...Linking to a page that illegally distributes someone else's work sheds a bad light on Wikipedia and its editors."
I wouldn't interpret McAdams' area of expertise as narrowly as you do, but if nothing else he certainly more than qualifies to comment on Prouty's views of the JFK assassination. And if we are to interpret McAdams' qualifications this narrowly, certainly we must totally disqualify Osanic, who has no known qualifications, publications, or expertise on this subject beyond an alleged personal connection to the late Prouty. You make an excellent point about the distinction between general and specific external links, and links of both types will be sought by the reader. But we should not supply this website solely because it is the only general link we have at hand. It is a low quality personal website of the sort you might have found on Geocities back in the day. It may have been the kind of external link that was acceptable for the Wikipedia of 2005, but not the Wikipedia of 2013. And certainly, if McAdams used his website to attack Osanic as "the laughingstock of the internet" and hawk his t-shirts and CDs, as Osanic does on his Prouty website, I think McAdams would lose whatever professorial imprimatur he had and we would discount his website as a resource as well. Gamaliel (talk) 18:28, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Arguably, the copyright policy might be used to disqualify prouty.org as a website, but I think this is a pretty tenuous justification. I note for instance that the Prouty entry here on Wikipedia as it currently stands has external links to two entire published books by Prouty. Both give Prouty as the copyright holder. Only one however states that it is reprinted with permission of the author. How to confirm this? And who holds the copyright today since Prouty is deceased? Either or both could be in violation of copyright. Yet that question has not been raised with either of the two links. Furthermore, on a closer examination of this prouty.org site, I am hard-pressed to find anything that actually raises any serious copyright concerns. The bulk of the material on the site seems to consist of audio and video interviews with Prouty himself, some of them with a person who appears to be Len Osanic. In the "Archived Radio Shows" section, I find over six hours of audio interviews with Prouty. These may well be covered by fair use. There are also two hours or so of video interviews with Prouty, 90 minutes of which or so are simply embedded YouTube clips, making any judgment of copyright violation harder to reasonably assert. I note also that prouty.org seems to carry a series of notable letters from Prouty's personal correspondence. Also there are twelve "commentaries" apparently written by Prouty himself for the prouty.org site. There are also a few more than a dozen e-mail communications from Prouty to various parties.
On account of the above, I am puzzled by two of your stated claims. 1) That prouty.org should not be listed under External Links because of copyright violation. The Wikipedia policy on this point clearly seems meant as a protection against linking to pirated music and film, books in print, etc. Unless there is something I'm missing significant enough to warrant a reconsideration, prouty.org seems to be what it says: a reference site for material related to, and emanating from Prouty. 2) Your claim above that prouty.org has a 'relatively low' amount of original material. I was surprised to find that there is, in fact, a fair amount of material on the site. The organization of the site leaves something to be desired. In less than five minutes, however, I was able to discover nearly ten hours of original interviews, etc., with the subject of this Wiki entry.
On your other points, I cannot say that I am convinced. You note that the HTML 1.0 design of prouty.org (duly noted) is ground for its exclusion. However, there no Wikipedia policy on this point that I am aware of, and certainly the McAdams external link is clearly also of the Geocities-era. The ratical.org links to Prouty's two books are as well. On the question as to the commercial purpose of the site, viewed in terms of the number and type of pages on the site and so on, by far the prevailing purpose of the prouty.org site is non-commercial. There are thirteen sub-sections listed on the left sidebar. Only one of them is oriented toward commerce -- "CD-ROM and Products" -- and that links to an external site called "blackopradio.com". Since that is a separate site, I cannot see how prouty.org can be excluded because of commercial purpose. I might similarly forbid an external link to any webpage that carries its own external link to something on Amazon.com.
Finally, on this issue of McAdams: I am unclear as to why a personal attack in the form of a phrase "laughingstock of the Internet" (apparently directed against McAdams) should disqualify prouty.org as a viable external link, when the McAdams critique of Prouty similarly seems to suggest Prouty is a "crackpot". That is, the McAdams piece can be interpreted simply as a character attack in longer form. Now, I'm not necessarily of that view, but in light of the benefit of the material offered by prouty.org, it is still unclear to me based on the fairly weak reasons given why prouty.org should not be listed among the external links. Because there are audio and video interviews, along with original correspondence and texts written specifically for the website, the site seems positively germane -- whatever its site design, aesthetics, and so on. Its function as a repository of material on Prouty makes it, in fact, rather desirable from the point of view of a Wiki bio entry.
I'll note in passing that the McAdams piece critical of Prouty itself quotes and links to prouty.org, making this whole issue a bit silly. Hochichi667 (talk) 21:12, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from Greg Burnham

Greg Burnham

Regarding the omission of relevant external link(s):

I was a personal friend of the late Colonel L. Fletcher Prouty. I first met him in the summer of 1975 while attending a lecture. I have known Len Osanic for nearly 20 years and can state, unequivocally, that Colonel Prouty was very grateful that Len memorialized his life's work through the Colonel L. Fletcher Prouty Reference Site, which Len administers to this day. Your suggestion that www.Prouty.org not be considered the official website solely because Fletch died 12 years ago, fails to consider several relevant facts. For one, the website was established several years prior to Fletch's death! Additionally, in the mid to late 1990's Len, Fletch and I were guests on various radio programs together (such as, The Radio Detective and The Jeff Rense Show) where Colonel Prouty often suggested that the listening audience visit the website and/or obtain a copy of the CD-ROM produced by Len Osanic (The Collected Works of Colonel L. Fletcher Prouty). Indeed, in 1997, Len Osanic was the first person listed by Colonel Prouty in the Acknowledgments Section of his book, The Secret Team, "To Len Osanic ... for bringing all my work back to life..." as a direct result of Len's dedication to creating a website designed to do just that. http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ST/STacknowl.html

Colonel Prouty wrote this note to Len shortly after the website was up and running, where it is still posted to this day:

Hello to the World Wide Web,

I'm quite surprised at the interest generated from this site. Judging by the questions and comments coming in, it seems to be read by a well informed audience. Since the proposition came about, to release a number of my articles, that for one reason or another never were published, I have been going through my files, and I was surprised at the amount of writing that has piled up. So, I've been busy going through them all and trying to pick the best of each category.

Not too many people know this, but I used to write on many, many other topics besides the JFK assassination. I wrote for the Banking community, the Railroads, and I've found work I'd forgotten about during my time in the Pentagon. As it has been mentioned, between myself and Len Osanic, will try to post something new each month.

L. Fletcher Prouty

Moreover, not only was the website endorsed by Fletch, repeatedly--as he was the chief contributor of content to it--but he personally commissioned Len to create, maintain, archive, and preserve it on his behalf. That is why it is titled "The Colonel L. Fletcher Prouty Reference Site". Much of the content found there could only have been obtained by Len directly from Colonel Prouty himself. Colonel Prouty enjoyed hosting Len at his home in Alexandria, VA on many occasions where they would discuss various topics of great historical import. Even beyond the knowledge of other Prouty students or friends, including Dave Ratcliff and myself, among others, Len Osanic is more uniquely qualified to inform regarding the life, work, beliefs, and person of Colonel L. Fletcher Prouty than perhaps anyone else.

The act of failing to provide a link to a subject's own website, who is himself the subject of a Wiki page, when said website was commissioned prior to death by the deceased himself, is tantamount to censorship. Gregory Burnham (talk) 22:25, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Those are reasonable arguments. The fact remains, however, that the site contains attacks on living persons. We aren't talking about criticism here. That would be fine. We're talking about personal attacks. While Wikipedia does have a policy WP:NOTCENSORED that states Wikipedia content is not censored for anyone's benefit, links are another matter. Wikipedia does indeed censor attack sites. As as been suggested repeatedly now, if the attacks are removed, it would go along way toward acceptance of a link. ~Amatulić (talk) 02:19, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As someone without a dog in the fight, I'm a little puzzled as to why the Prouty Reference Site isn't included among the links at the bottom of this Wiki entry. For one, user Len Osanic's claim to run the "official" Prouty website is in a way irrelevant. As far as I can tell, that claim is restricted to this Talk page: it appears nowhere on the prouty.org site. Therefore, taking the site as is, the first issue is whether or not the site qualifies as a "Reference Site" as it calls itself. It seems fairly clear that it does. For one, there is no other site of its kind that I can locate using a popular search engine. That is, no other site devoted to Prouty primarily. Second, and contrary to the comment above, there does seem to be a fair amount of original material of Prouty's at the site. While the question as to copyright might have to be asked in the case of each individual item on prouty.org, it is not *clearly* in violation of copyright in any particular case as far as I can tell. It is hard to assert that the *possible* violation of copyright outweighs the fairly obvious benefit offered by a link to original material produced by the subject of this biographical entry. Regarding the last claim on personal attacks -- I've been unable to find the personal attacks mentioned on prouty.org. If they have been detailed on this talk page, I haven't spotted them yet. If the idea is that the dead man made personal attacks on some party or parties, and those attacks are quoted, one would think they have historical value as opinions expressed by the biographical subject even if they are directed at parties still living. My view is that this entry is a relatively minor entry that could gain obvious improvement by linking to a repository of original material of interest to anyone interested in Prouty. If links to pages that contain any personal attacks whatsoever are really to be avoided, half the Internet would be off-limits to Wikipedia. Moreover, the line between personal attack and criticism can sometimes be blurred, and the two can also appear side-by-side. Hochichi667 (talk) 22:35, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You misunderstand, these aren't Prouty's attacks, these are Osanic's. The issue is that Osanic appears to be using Prouty's name as a vehicle to promote Osanic's vendettas and merchandise. Gamaliel (talk) 23:03, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a stated Wikipedia policy on linking to external sites that are either commercial or semi-commercial? At a glance the site seems partly commercial -- but then anything with a '.com' is technically commercial. Thanks. Hochichi667 (talk) 07:07, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I believe Wikipedia:External links generally discourages such things. Gamaliel (talk) 18:28, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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