Talk:Population history of the Indigenous peoples of the Americas

Systemic issues

It seems clear - not just to myself, but to many readers commenting above - that this article, as it currently stands, has a consistent tilt: it endorses a strongly revisionist stand. Incidentally, while any position, however immoderate, will be supported by *some* sources, it seems that the strongest statements in the page have inadequate support:

"Nearly all scholars now believe that widespread epidemic disease, to which the natives had no prior exposure or resistance, was the overwhelming cause of the massive population decline of the Native Americans." ("Nearly all scholars", but only one source is given; this source (pp. 1-11 of "Born to die") is actually mostly about cruelties inflicted by man upon man - it is certainly not a description of the supposed consensus that it should support.)

"While epidemic disease was by far the leading cause of the population decline of the American indigenous peoples after 1492,..." (No sources given)

"Although mass killings and atrocities were not a significant factor in native depopulation, no mainstream scholar dismisses the sometimes humiliating circumstances now believed to be precipitated by civil disorder as well as Spanish cruelty.[41][42]" (Both sources seem to support only the second half of the sentence, if anything.)

These sentences have to go or be supported.

Quite besides that - there are deeper issues at stake.

• The article cites next to no Spanish-language sources. This is a major lack, especially given that this is supposed to be a page about "population decline" (death) in the Americas as a whole. Nearly all work done in Latin America on the subject is thus ignored.

• The article treats disease, on the other hand, and exploitation, on the other (not to mention the disruption and impoverishment caused by war) as if they were two independent matters. Obviously, hunger and societal breakdown (not to mention forced labor in Andean silver mines) makes people more prone to disease. It is stunning that this is being given less importance than, um, sweat baths.

One might as well blame Anne Frank's death on typhus, to which she had few defenses due to her having grown up in a protected middle-class environment. Feketekave (talk) 17:32, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

You are perhaps correct about lacking good Latin American references. I'm not sure that "Spanish (non-English)" references are required just yet, if they can be avoided.

I am not as certain that South and Central America experienced the "die-off" that North America did. Maybe not as many trappers there? Not as many colonists, percentage-wise? Yes, the survivors were enslaved and, in some cases, worked/starved to death. The Spanish interacted differently with the natives, than did the English. Mortality may have been different. I get the impression, that despite the enslavement, a higher percentage survived, as opposed to North America.

But in the North, the vast and sophisticated Mississipian culture disappeared, so well, that survivors were not even aware of it, prior to the English/Spanish settling the area. This has only recently been discovered. I don't think there is any doubt in any serious researcher's mind that the native American population mostly died out through trapper contact in the 16th century.Student7talk) 17:08, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

(a) Again, we need more sources, and fewer statements such as "there is [no] doubt in any serious researcher's mind". Note that history is often written polemically, with one generation of researchers trying to profile itself against the previous one. A brief discussion in the article on the historiography of the subject should eventually be in order.

(b) We do need Spanish-language sources; most of the scholarship on what happened in Central and South America is in Spanish, for obvious reasons.

(c) The population drop in South America was enormous. (This is undisputed; see "Demographic collapse: Indian Peru, 1520–1620" by Noble David Cook, one of the main proponents of the disease thesis that this article currently puts forward as the only one.) However - to be blunt - it is very hard to kill off peasants. A sedentary culture with high population density will survive to some extent no matter what. Feketekave (talk) 10:59, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry. I meant serious researchers concerning North American die-off of natives. I don't know about Spanish-settled areas. Very clear in what is now the US that the Mississippi culture just "vanished" so well in the 16th century that their descendants could not explain what the "mounds" were for. In fairness, these supposed descendant-natives had moved and their ancestors may not have been familiar with the Mississippi culture. There were millions, if not tens of millions of people who died long before the colonists arrived. This was only recently realized.

As we know, Spanish hegemony into southern areas was extensive and chronicled at this time. The North's chronology was essentially unknown except for a handful of explorers, both Spanish and English. But we know that there were "trappers" who made contact on a "regular" basis, most likely, and unwittingly, bringing disease. Student7 (talk) 21:51, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Deliberate infection

Several historical records suggest that many infections happened because of a deliberate policy to exterminate the natives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.27.165 (talk) 05:31, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Do you have a WP:RS to support this claim? Student7 (talk) 23:26, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

There is a Canadian documentary that has shown historical records showing that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.24.140 (talk) 02:25, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vNW9meqny4&t=33m02s — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.24.140 (talk) 02:29, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Annett is not even close to being a RS.Pokey5945 (talk) 21:30, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Student7 has reversed my edit about a historical marker along the I-10 freeway in California which states that the Cahuilla Indians believe that they were intentionally infected with smallpox by the US Army who gave them infected blankets. He also says he is not sure of the point but that should be obvious. As for reliable source, it seems to me that a historical marker put up by the state of california ought to be reliable enough. The marker recounts that this is what the tribe believed. Obviously, it can't be proven 160 years later, but the fact that this is the belief of the survivors certainly seems relevant, so i don't see why Student7 doesn't see the point. Judging from his or her previous use of WP:RS perhaps there is a lack of objectivity here of not wanting to see the point? I'm going to try and reinstate the reverted text. Otherwise this section might look like a complete whitewash of the issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JPLeonard (talk • contribs) 03:38, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

It isn't a reliable source. Such markers are put up sometimes for political reasons, eg ones claiming Norse in Georgia, etc. If this is significant you should have no problems finding better sources. If you can't, then it doesn't belong here either. Dougweller (talk) 06:58, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. No peer review. Even if it were RS, it substantiates a myth, not an actual incident.Pokey5945 (talk) 21:30, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

not a population history, more of causes of deteriorated population?

I [EDIT] do NOT have sources, just surfed through on my way elsewhere. I expected to find numbers here, not so much talk. I'll willingly grant that no population count was available when Europeans arrived. I'll acknowledge the deaths from disease - I'm even willing to swallow figures as high as 80%. (on the one hand "all historians agree" sounds suspect ... but on the other hand the decimation of Hawaii due to disease happened after we knew how to count heads; presumably the numbers are similar.)

But at some point head counts HAD to have begun in the USA, even if it was just for the purpose of bagging and tagging to funnel them into the reservations. Are those numbers somewhere? It would be great to see them in this article: an actual population history, even if it's only from 1850 to 2010. A comparison to the non-native population figures would put it in perspective.

Thanks for listening.Ukrpickaxe (talk) 06:35, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

One book I know that addresses the many speculative estimates for pre-Contact/pre-epidemic populations in the Pacific Northwest is The Resettlement of British Columbia by Cole Harris, some of which is previewable on googlebooks.`Skookum1 (talk) 06:53, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

There's also a very provocative new history of the Great Smallpox of 1862 in BC by a Victoria writer which discusses the faults of the pre-colonial HBC 'census' materials as greatly low, and exposes what seems to have been an overt conspiracy on the part of the colonial government to spread the disease, I'll see if I can find the author's name and such......usual estimates of the pre-Great Smallpox population was c.60,000 in BC, both him and Harris say it was much higher; as do the natives, of course. The first smallpox hit the region before white men were ever seen, around 1690 I think, overland from Mexico via other tribes and trade.Skookum1 (talk) 06:58, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree it is worthwhile to search for WP:RS to support native populations in the 19th century onwards.

I am aware of at least two "observations" of native treatment of fever resulting in overexposure and death. (The medical establishment would call these anecdotal). One is Ulysses S. Grant's report of his time in the northwest "territory" of the US when fever struck. The natives buried themselves in earth to reduce fever, thereby dying of overexposure. Entreaties were futile.

The second was the missionaries observation of the measles epidemic in Hawaii when thousands of natives (Polynesians, not "native Americans". per se) plunged themselves into the ocean and also died, with the missionaries pleading with them to come out and trying to "rescue" them to scant avail. Student7 (talk) 22:41, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Problems

Fernand Braudel has pointed out a problem the Amerindian faced which was not a factor in Eurasia and Africa: "The Indian population ... suffered from a demographic weakness, particularly because of the absence of any substitute animal milk. Mothers had to nurse their children until they were three or four years old. This long period of breast-feeding severely reduced female fertility and made any demographic revival precarious."

This makes absolutely no sense. Breast feeding isn't necromancy. A mother's quality of milk is determined almost exclusively by her diet and if a healthy diet is available, the child could eat it as well. If there is no healthy diet available, the problem is not 'extended breastfeeding', it's the lack of a healthy diet. No animal including humans needs to drink the milk of other animals to survive, nor does breastfeeding decrease fertility. I doubt that the source even corroborates the claims here because they are medically specious. Someone who owns the book please check. If the book does, there are numerous sources to disprove the argument. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boleroinferno (talk • contribs) 16:46, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Tuberculosis

History of tuberculosis notes the disease has been documented in the New World from 1050 BC, which means it probably pre-dates human migration to the Americas? The section "Depopulation from disease" claims TB spread in both directions. Is it referring to different strains? There are no sources cited. -- Beland (talk) 01:12, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Immunity

"Eurasian diseases such as smallpox, influenza, bubonic plague and pneumonic plagues devastated the Native Americans who did not have immunity." This implies that Europeans did have immunity. In those days no one was immune to influenza or smallpox. No one has ever been immune to the plagues that hit Europe in the 14th and 17th centuries. It would be best to remove "who did not have immunity." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Narwagner (talk • contribs) 11:49, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Oral records of pre-columbian population size

Regardless of what caused the depopulation, it occurred over a relatively short time-span, historically speaking. In particular as regards the population of North America, between sometime in the early 1500s and the mid-late 1800s the continent was practically depopulated of indigenous peoples. Do any of those people have stories about how many people were in their groups prior to 1492 or when and how the population shrank so much?69.138.223.87 (talk) 19:54, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Class assignment huh? Yes, lots, and don't constrain your thinking by pegging 1492 as if it mattered beyond the Atlantic Seaboard....there's lots of "oral numbers" out there, especially among western peoples where the population collapse was in almost living memory.....but I'm not going to help you with your paper, and Wikipedia's not the place to be looking for someone to help you write your answer; use the references given on the page overleaf and why not just google "population history" and "oral tradition" together and see what you get?Skookum1 (talk) 07:38, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

you could not be further off-base. I have been out of school for decades, I was re-reading "Blackfoot Lodge Tales" and it occurred to me to wonder why none of the tales were of a massive depopulation. Why would you assume anyone would want your help? You are obviously worse than Hitler and twice as dumb.