Talk:Dave Brat

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This article has been mentioned by a media organization:

Reid J. Epstein (2014-06-10). "Who Is David Brat? Meet the Economics Professor Who Defeated Eric Cantor". The Wall Street Journal. Retrieved 2014-06-10. Mr. Brat was so unknown that his Wikipedia entry was only two sentences before Tuesday night.

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POV tag discussion

I think there are some problems with the tone of this article. Specifically, it's not very objective. Obviously, more information about the professor will come out as the campaign develops. I don't mean to start an edit war, although that will obviously happen at some point - the man is a candidate for political office. I just hope that we can clean this stub up a little bit now to set the tone for later edits.

With respect, to say "Specifically, it's not very objective" is not to be at all specific. I can't tell if you think the page is biased in favor of its subject, or against him! So, how about really being specific? Nandt1 (talk) 01:56, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, unless some specific discussion is taking place, the tag should be removed. And, btw, "obviously, more information...will come out as the campaign develops" is not an argument supporting the claim of non-neutrality. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. We objectively compile the sources that are available now. If more information does come out (in reliable sources), then (and only then) could it be included here. Anticipating the possibility of such is not a reason to argue this article isn't neutral.--William Thweatt ^Talk^Contribs 02:12, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Concur with Nandt1 and William Thweatt. Unless something specific can be pointed to as being non-neutral, I really fail to see how the basic dry information presented so far is somehow not-neutral. Lestatdelc (talk) 02:16, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Is he really Catholic?

Is he really Catholic? He went to Princeton Theological Seminary, which is Presbyterian. If he is Catholic, that might be interesting to say what caused him to switch. And if he isn't, well the page should be fixed... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.139.136.86 (talk) 01:22, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

His own website says he attends St. Mary's Catholic Church in Richmond, VA. 50.200.41.134 (talk) 01:27, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hope College is in the Calvinist tradition, but you need not be Dutch Reformed to attend. I'd assume one need not be Presbyterian to attend PTS (11 June 2014). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.80.84.247 (talk) 19:17, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

His website says he "attends" a Catholic church, not that he is a member. Other media sources are reporting that Brat himself identifies as a Calvinist in a 2011 academic paper: http://int.sagepub.com/content/65/2/168.abstract Hope College is in the Dutch Calvinist tradition and located in a region with large historically Dutch and Calvinist populations. His surname is Dutch. Princeton is historically Reformed as well -- in the Presbyterian (Anglo-Scotch-Irish) wing of Calvinism, and it is the only ivy league seminary that has a key history with the rise of modern American Fundamentalism and Calvinism with major Dutch reformed contributors like Cornelius Van Til and Abraham Kuyper. I would guess Brat either recently became a Catholic or else goes to church with his wife who may be Catholic. Obviously this needs more research as the facts are being reported both ways online. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.22.207.123 (talk) 19:57, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

More background info - http://www.themorningsun.com/government-and-politics/20140611/alma-native-now-in-the-red-hot-heat-of-publicity — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.102.160.100 (talk) 20:31, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Birthdate

Unfortunately you won't be able to see the link unless you have an Ancestry.com membership (or sign up for a free trial), but according to this record, David Brat was born on January 15, 1962: http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-g&gsfn=David+A&gsln=Brat&msypn__ftp=Virginia%2c+USA&cpxt=0&catBucket=rstp&uidh=at8&cp=0&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=168466935&db=USpublicrecords3&indiv=1&ml_rpos=1 . All the details match up with this David Brat (not exactly a common name to begin with). Ancestry.com is quite reliable, but of course not infallible. An anonymous user from the Indiana Department of Education changed the birthdate in the article to July 27, 1964. Why? I have no idea (no edit summary). Maybe the editor knows Brat personally and knows his birthday. I do see the few news orgs willing to state an age for Brat give his age as 49 (not 52 as the 1/62 birthday would have it), but they don't cite their sources and may be making assumptions from the 1986 college graduation date. At any rate, I can at least link the 1/62 birthday with a reputable link. Any comments about making such a change? As it stands, there is zero evidence out there that I can find for the 1964 birthdate currently in the article. Moncrief (talk) 17:47, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

FamilySearch confirms January 15, 1962 as birthdate (squaring with his Glen Allen, Virginia residence).--Artaxerxes 18:12, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Wow, great resource! I'm going to change it back to 1/15/62 with that link. If someone thinks it's incorrect, they can provide evidence of their own. Thanks. Moncrief (talk) 18:26, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure why Ancestry has that birthdate, but, as http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/latest-news/david-brat-stuns-house-majority-leader-eric-cantor/article_fe2fed12-f0f6-11e3-a6ea-001a4bcf6878.html, states, he is 49. Which means his birthday can't be in 1962. I can provide no web based evidence, but, well, he is a childhood friend. I'm pretty sure you'll find that it is 7/27/64. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.138.220.61 (talk) 18:59, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I thought your edit may have been something like that (personal knowledge), and I actually appreciate that Ancestry/FamilySearch could somehow be wrong. I'm not sure what to do at this point. How do you come by July 27th, from your personal memory? Moncrief (talk) 19:06, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, personal memory. I grew up in Alma. We went to the same church. Same middle school. As I said, a childhood friend. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.138.220.61 (talk) 19:11, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This Richmond Magazine interview [1] with him conforms you're right about summer 1964. Ancestry.com fail. Moncrief (talk) 01:26, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Personal acquaintance: Any facts regarding a 1978 marriage? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:464:C101:89F3:6208:181A:C4F6 (talk) 02:36, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I removed it. He would have been 14-16. Never mentioned in the NYT articles or Richmond Magazine. I think someone was playing around. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.102.160.100 (talk) 03:46, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Implications

Primary upset of Cantor changes: 1) House leadership; 2) approach to immigration legislation; 3) Virginia political influence in House [with impending retirements of Reps. Frank R. Wolf (R) and James P. Moran (D)]; and, 4) national GOP texture/strategy/message—as well as adding to the counter-argument that money always determines who wins elections.--Artaxerxes 18:32, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Creed

The bullet points in the Dave_Brat#Political_positions seems to me to be not appropriate content, unless these are referred in a secondary source. Cwobeel (talk) 21:47, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed these in the context of WP:NOR. If there is a source that describes the RPV's creed as referred to by Brat, we can re-ad based on that source. Cwobeel (talk) 05:02, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Editorializing

When we have both primary and secondary sources that describe Brat's essay, there is no need to editorialize. Just use the source and provide quotes when necessary. If there is any "POV", it is Brat's POV. Cwobeel (talk) 22:56, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@NazariyKaminski: This edit [2] is nothing but infantile. The text and quote is obvious without the need to add "criticize". Be careful with your own "POV" in which you see shadows when there are none. Cwobeel (talk) 23:04, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is no need for you to POV push. Your description left the impression that Brat was supportive of Hitler in someway, so was the WSJ article. There is a counterpoint article that specifically rebuts the WSJ article and when I have time I will edit the article to reflect these facts. I will edit the article as I see fit. You need to stop the POV pushing.--NK (talk) 00:39, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cool it. The fact is that you don't know how to read a sentence. That sentence did not left any impression that he was supportive of Hitler. And you need to stop the WP:BATTLE attitude. It is really tedious and childish. Cwobeel (talk) 04:26, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Background

I think this should be updated. The citations from the Richmond Magazine (http://www.richmondmagazine.com/articles/dave-brat-republican-primary.html) and The Morning Sun (http://www.themorningsun.com/government-and-politics/20140611/alma-native-now-in-the-red-hot-heat-of-publicity) have quite a bit of background that is not yet included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.102.160.100 (talk) 03:34, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Does this guy warrant a page?

Is Dave Brat sufficiently notable? Yes, he defeated Cantor in the congressional primary, but that still only means he's a candidate for office. Perhaps it's better to wait until he's actually won? Otherwise, everyone who passes the goalpost of being selected as a congressional candidate would warrant their own Wikipedia entry. -- 24.212.139.102 (talk) 03:39, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You raise a valid question in that Dave Brat fails a strict reading of our notability guideline WP:POLITICIAN. On the other hand, he is the first candidate ever to defeat a sitting House Majority Leader. That is a claim of notability far more powerful than a routine win of a party nomination in a primary election. So, I am leaning toward the judgment that this is an exception to the general rule. The thoughts of other experienced editors would be appreciated. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:49, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Defeating the sitting House Majority leader is unprecedented in American politics. Just on that basis, he is notable. Cwobeel (talk) 04:53, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Subject may fail WP:POLITICIAN (for now) but definitely meets WP:GNG. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 04:58, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It does not fail WP:POLITICIAN, per point (3). Cwobeel (talk) 05:04, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. I think it's important we got this out of the way, regardless of outcome. Thanks. -- 24.212.139.102 (talk) 05:23, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Misrepresentation of positions

This sentence. "He supports cutting Social Security payments by two-thirds,[32] [33]" is not supported by the sources. Mother Jones says that it appears that he wants to cut SS payments by 2/3 and the video linked to that does not actually include what the question was, but he says that seniors today receive about 3 to 1 dollars that they put into the system and that he would like to over some time make this more fair, whatever that means. But we can't make statements of fact that go this much beyond what he actually is saying. Arzel (talk) 05:21, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]