Talk:Saburō Sakai

The relationship between Sakai and the pyramid scheme

In "Zero Fighters of Our Grandfathers"(pp.338-346.), "Sakai participated in Tenka Ikka no Kai ("the biggest pyramid scheme in history."). Most of his junior pilots lost their property because of Sakai. And Sakai shed bad rumors of his former boss that warned him after the boss died. Therefore, Sakai was hated by his former comrades." Sakai has also confessed it in an interview by the author "kōdachi". What is the source that Sakai never was a part of a Pyramid scheme? If 66.58.141.104 thinks it should not be posted because it is a disgrace for Sakai,I am okay with that.--Sicmn (talk) 05:27, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

There never needs to be a source that someone did not do something. Actions are sourced; proof is required to verify actions. It is incumbent on the editor to provide verifiable sources for new information. That would be akin to me demanding that you cite a source proving that Sakai never danced on the head of a pin... ScrapIronIV (talk) 15:01, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Your comment is entirely off the mark. We can confirm that Sakai participated in the Pyramid scheme in the Source. And we can see it in the blog of this author.(For example, http://ameblo.jp/zero21nk/entry-10927275886.html) If you deny it, please show the source. If that's what you want, I will not add it. Do you have a source to deny it?--Sicmn (talk) 08:13, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

I am not attempting to deny it. I am saying the request for a source that somebody did not do something is, by its very nature, an unreasonable request. By the logic used elsewhere in these edits, his "confession" can not be used, because it is personal testimony. If we can not use his statements as fact for his history in WWII, then we can not use his statements for his participation - or lack thereof - in this "Pyramid scheme."

Wrong details about his injury...

According to "Samurai", Sakai's account of his war years, he was injured when he approched a flight of TBF Avenger torpedo bombers, not SBD's. He thought they were Wildcat fighters (the aircraft look similar at a distance). He specifically mentions the fact that they had belly guns (which the SBD did not have). In addition, he refers to the pieces of .50 cal ammo that were removed from his wounds, and the SBD rear guns were .30 cal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.204.81.54 (talk) 20:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC).

I agree with the person above. It is also mentioned in "Samurai!" by Saburo Sakai, Martin Caidin and Fred Saito. Hellcat fighter 14:48, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Definitely SBDs. Saburo probably misidentified them, or it was an error on the part of Martin Caidin.

So what is your source for them being SBDs? His autobiography clearly states he spotted two separate flights of four TBF Avengers each. No SBD ever had a belly turret, and the TBF looked very similar to the Wildcat, which is what he initially mistook it for. According to all the information, including the fact that he had never seen a TBF before and he had just shot down a Dauntless only minutes before, the planes he encountered were TBFs and not SBDs. I'll change it if no one else will. F33bs (talk) 05:10, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

• • So which aircraft was it guys? In the text of this article, somone tried to change the references to an SBD Dauntless that shot Sakai, too a TBF Avenger without changing all of the text calling the aircraft an SBD! So what is the truth of the matter? Most of the references online that I have seen refer to an SBD Dauntless rear gunner having done the deed but it is possible it was a TBF Avenger. So what's the final verdict because the article's text on the incident is confusing. Maphisto86 (talk) 04:03, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

The reference to the book Samurai!, or at least the Martin Caidin-coauthored American publication of it as Sakai's autobiography is misleading. That book, as with many of Caidin's works, is full of inaccuracies--enough so that using it as a documentary reference for this page is perhaps questionable. A better source, and one which is already listed as a reference, is Winged Samurai by Henry Sakaida (the portion relevant to the SBD-TBF debate was coauthored with John Lundstrom). Sakaida's book makes clear that Sakai's intended targets were SBDs from VB-6 (it is also worth noting that in his introduction to the book, Sakai even mentions one of the VB-6 SBD gunners, Harold Jones, whom he later befriended; Jones himself was uncertain how much damage he had done to Sakai's plane, as every SBD gunner that could do so was firing at him). Published in 1985, this is still the more recent scholarship, and I would evaulate Sakaida and Lundstrom as more valid sources than Caidin, particularly since unlike Caidin, Sakaida interviewed Sakai in person.Mdyank77 (talk) 01:10, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

I should add, in terms of the recency of the scholarship, that although the reference list puts the publication date of Samurai! as 1985, the American edition was in fact first published in 1957. There have been many subsequent editions, but to my knowledge the content has never changed. I'm not saying that the whole book is rubbish--it's actually still in print by the U.S. Naval Institute--but it does contain a concerning number of historical inaccuracies and is not therefore a good stand-alone source; of course, as an autobiography it is questionable whether it ever should have been considered s stand-alone source in this instance regardless of the known flaws.Mdyank77 (talk) 04:24, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

PBS series

I just watched the PBS series "Secrets of the Dead" episode on the "Pug" incident. More detail are included in Pug Southerland's article. http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/case_dogfight/index.html

Details included in the episode include the following:

The American attack on Guadalcanal was surprising and the nearest fighters that could reach the island were those in Rabaul. The island was at the limits of the Zero's range. Important equipment was removed to make the aircraft lighter, including the radio. Mounted with external fuel tanks, Sakai and his fellow pilots few four and a half hours to Guadalcanal and dumped their external fuel tanks before engaging the American pilots. Sakai commented on how there had to be 70 ships and how surprised he was to see that many ships below. He described looking down and seeing two Japanese fighters attempting to kill the Wildcat piloted by "Pug" Southerland. He was impressed by Pug's skill, noting that he should have been easily shot down. He engaged Southerland. Sakai's guns hit Southerland's Wildcat numerous times, but the more heavily armoured fighter absorbed the impact. Southerland was quoted as hearing many bullets hit the armoured plate directly behind his seat. At one point, Southerland used a maneuver in which he slowed and forced Sakai to pass him in order to gain the advantage, but did not fire when he had the opportunity to shoot Sakai down. Sakai was quoted as believing he had made a fatal mistake and was about to be shot down. The episode focused, among other things, on why Pug did not fire. It was ultimately determined that his guns were most likely damaged from earlier encounters and would not fire. Sakai managed to slow alongside the Wildcat and saw Southerland, bloodied and injured. He returned to a position behind Southerland, and, according to him, decided to avoid shooting at the cockpit, and shot at the plane's engine with his 20mm canon (a fact supported by the findings in the engine wreckage in the episode).

After looking for more planes, and not finding any, he saw several dots in the distance that he mistook for Wildcats (I don't recall which of the above mentioned bombers the episode said he encountered, but the article above says 30 caliber bullet), but he was shot at by the rear-facing gunner of that bomber. The bullet that hit him (at least the one discussed) was said to have gone through his windscreen, which slowed the bullet enough to prevent it from killing him. As it was, it passed through his head on his right side, through his brain, and out the back of his head. He lost the sight in his left eye, and also could not move the left side of his body. Thinking he was about to die, he looked for an American ship to kamakaze into, to die like a samurai. However, he found none and after some setbacks (some dives, spins, and whatnot), he managed to make the 5 hour return flight with only a compass and other basic instruments, almost crashing when he landed, but surviving.

I hope this helps the detail in the article regarding one of Sakai's bestknown dogfightsTheHYPO 06:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

First Fortress kill?

I have a problem with the assertion that Sakai's shooting down of Colin P. Kelly's B-17C 40-2045 on 10 December 1941 was the "first" Fortress shot down in the Pacific war. B-17C 40-2074 of the 38th Reconnaissance Squadron, piloted by Capt. Raymond T. Swenson, was attacked by Zero fighters while on approach to Hickam Field on 7 December which set his magnesium flares alight. The hard landing broke the burning airframe in half aft the wing and it was written off. I would say that 40-2074 was the first Fort shot down. (Salecker, Fortress Against the Sun, page 17-18, 2001.) Mark Sublette 20:09, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Mark SubletteMark Sublette 20:09, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Citations

As per B-Class tags it needs appropriate citations. i think all major points could be cited but it could do with some more citations. These need to follow the correct Wikipedia:Citation templates and conform to WP:CITE which they do not at the moment. Woodym555 20:34, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Total Kills?

How many kills did he have? It's not mentioned anywhere I can find in the article. 69.86.232.64 (talk) 21:08, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Martin Caidin, author of "Samurai" (he wrote it using Saburo's narrations as base) calculated 64 - IMHO he had a good reason to inflate the number (just as any other writer trying to earn money by writing fabulous stories about the "knights of the skies"). Saburo allegedly never claimed a specific number. The real number will never be known, but probably ranges from 32 (conservative Japanese historians divided all wartime claims by their pilots by 2) to the most quoted 64.

Military means obedience

In exchanging of total colaboration, during Cold War, "Uncle Sam" forgot all crimes of Emperor Hirohito.A brazilian general Aurélio de Lira Tavares told decades ago:Military means obediency.This great japanese patriot told the true:japanese military, just were followig Hirohito's orders, during World War II.Saburo Sakai was a great ace and a great man. Agre22 (talk) 15:08, 7 August 2008 (UTC)agre22

I don't think anyone was attacking Mr. Sakai... -Someone not logged in his name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.13.130.104 (talk) 17:20, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Misplace material

The following was added by an IP on Dec 17, 2010, with little regard to integration to the existing text:

Additonal Combat: My quest began sometime shortly after World War II. I was a young boy (probably around 10 or 11) when my grandfather told me the story of how my father, Lt Colonel Francis R. Stevens, had been killed in the skies over New Guinea early in the War. Years later, • A series of pictures of my father’s plane being shot down (the very photos that had been the object of my quest). • A picture of the man who had piloted the Japanese Zero that had fired the fatal bullets, the famous air ace, Saburo Sakai. • A group photo of Sakai and the other pilots in his fighter squadron, taken just seconds before the siren sounded announcing the impending arrival of the flight of B-26’s, which included the “Wabash Cannonball,” my Dad’s airplane. • A letter written by Sakai, recounting in considerable detail the events that unfolded in the short time between the taking of this last photo and my father’s plane crashing into the waters off Lae, in northern New Guinea - to include a second-by-second description of how he had attacked the “Wabash Cannonball” and shot it down.

It was, as you can imagine, quite an emotional moment for me.

I was able to add one anecdote of interest to Caidin and Hymoff, the story I have seen in print several times since, of how Dad wound up on the plane that Lyndon Johnson was supposed to ride on that fateful mission. What happened was that Johnson had originally gotten on the “Wabash Cannonball,” but had forgotten to take his camera with him. While he was retrieving his camera, Dad, unaware that Johnson had designs on sitting there, climbed into the seat that his friend had recently vacated. When Johnson returned to claim his place, Dad, in a lighthearted manner, told him that he would just have to find himself another airplane to ride that day. As fate would have it, the plane that Johnson wound up on developed engine trouble and never made it to the target, while the “Wabash Cannonball” was not to return from the mission. And the rest, as they say, is history.

From: My Father and I and Saburo Sakai Colonel Francis R. Stevens, Jr., USA-Retired http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/cc/stevens.html

HarryZilber (talk) 05:13, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

New source material

At what point does a single new reference book justify a complete revision of a Wikipedia article?

Reading through this article as recently edited, it looks like a hack job on the subject, with each entry individually disputed; i.e., "Sakai said:" followed by the entry, and followed by a refutation of his statement. In no other article do I see that kind of formatting. If there is a controversy over the history of this man, then it needs to be addressed in a separate section.

Additionally, the alleged Ponzi scheme issue needs to be discussed if it is to be included. This is a potentially libelous issue, controversial, and unverified in an english souce.

Finally, can the english version of this entry be completely changed by someone's translation of a foreign text? I know there is a larger world out there, but there are plenty of english sources for material on this man, and completely rewriting it based on an untranslated work seems poor precedent. ScrapIronIV (talk) 14:37, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Difference from official records are pointed out in other articles for NPOV.(For example, Erich Hartmann , Hans-Joachim Marseille) If you have a counterargument against official records, you can add it. Article that was posted only testimony of the person is contrary to NPOV.--Sicmn (talk) 08:14, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

The reversion made is in conflict with Wikipedia guidelines. The minor edit of the lead kept the data from the prior version, included additional sourced material, and corrected some atrocious grammar. It also corrected a decidedly POV issue. It also included the range of Sakai's claims, both the official credit and those claimed in his personal memoirs and biography.

There is no problem with a refutation of a pilot's claims; however, the article can not be written in such a way as to paint the subject as a liar - which is precisely what the "Sakai said:... BUT" format does. Additionally, it is poor english.

What is being claimed as "Official record" is an unverifiable analysis of incomplete records as the final arbiter. As that new data is at odds with over 60 years of historical analysis and personal testimony, it must be considered but can not be considered the final and perfect source. As it was customary in the IJN to award credit to the unit, and not the individual pilot, such records are by default suspect when it comes to final tallies.

I have examined the pages of other Japanese pilots, and this one has been singled out to refute every claim made by the subject. Reading this, it appears that someone has an axe to grind with the subject, and waited until Sakai's passing to avoid addressing them while he was still alive. I am certain that this is not the case, but it is the impression that is left with the reader.

I will (again) attempt to modify this to an acceptable form, and if it is reverted again I will contact an Admin. The history shown on this page is one of constant reversions indicative of an edit war trying to force on specific view meant to cast a negative view on the the character of Sakai.

153.2.247.30 (talk) 15:02, 17 November 2014 (UTC)