Talk:Kevin Folta

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 2a02:8070:8883:ca00:20e9:98c2:7b69:41cf (talk) at 11:17, 15 September 2015 (→‎Suggest mediation). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Role of Land Grant universities

I think it might be informative to add a couple quotes about the nature of Land Grant universities such as University of Florida with regard to the alleged conflict of interest. These articles explain how Dr. Folta's educational outreach program relates to their broader mission, and how such collaboration is a feature, not a bug:

There is a network of “Land Grant” colleges and Universities throughout the US that was first set up in the late 1800s through the Morrill Acts. Their purpose was to focus on agriculture, science, military science and engineering. They became important centers of applied research which has been of great benefit for the global food supply. These institutions have traditionally been part of a synergistic, public/private partnership for the discovery, testing and commercialization of innovations of value to the farming community. They also educate future farmers, the specialized scientists and engineers who become the employees of ag-related businesses, and the future faculty. [1]

[T]his is the way the land-grant university system is supposed to work. Part of our mission is to partner with others — be they corporations, nonprofits, or government agencies — to discover, test and commercialize inventions. It's also our mission to share science and innovation broadly with the public. [2]

Wurdeh (talk) 16:59, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

While I'm one of the first to admit many people fail to realize what role land-grant researchers are supposed to serve between the public and industry, I'm worried we might be getting into WP:COATRACK territory with this unless another source delves into that role a bit more directly on the subject of this article or the controversy. Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:17, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Land-grant university exists. I linked the mention of it in the strawberry section, but there isn't much text to get the point across you seem to be implying. If another section needs it, I'm sure a link to that would be sufficient for the bulk of the information, possibly linking to a subsection if an appropriate one exists. Then it might be sufficient to add one, maybe two, sentences to the fact that he works at a land-grant university, and academic-industry-gov't-etc partnerships are appropriate and necessary.Nrjank (talk) 03:53, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

COI

I think we need to talk about the changes made rather than just reverting. Some are quite good, and there are WP:RS citations for a lot of the changes made. Jerod Lycett (talk) 22:16, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Like most COI editor's edits, this section was fundetmentally non neutral. IT was biased in favor of its subject with the addition of unreliable sources and giving undue weight to the view that he did nothing wrong. Winner 42 Talk to me! 22:37, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I see one SPS, and many many RS. Can you show RS that he did something wrong? He did go about editing in the wrong way, but he did add RS, and from what I can see, removed the NPOV. Jerod Lycett (talk) 22:42, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In this case when an advocacy group is working on a smear campaign (or any nicer way to put it), we also need to be careful of undue weight for that point of view as well. That's especially the case given that this is a BLP. This is very similar in nature to Climategate, so while COI edits were made, I agree with Jerodlycett that a lot of them actually weren't too shabby as far as COI editors go. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:02, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I have gone through and removed most of the unreliable sources and misrepresented sources, and I'll continue to work on the section for a bit. Winner 42 Talk to me! 23:18, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In edits you made removing content mentioning SPS, what are you seeing as a problem? The sources I've seen deleted here appear fine under WP:BLPSPS. I don't think everything should have just been deleted, but some of that content associated with them can be reworked. I'll take a stab at that in a bit. Just wanting to make sure you weren't deleting content based on the source alone. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:44, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Winner 42:This: Kroll, David (10 September 2015). "What The New York Times Missed On Kevin Folta And Monsanto's Cultivation Of Academic Scientists". Forbes. Retrieved 10 September 2015. doesn't appear to be SPS, but rather an op-ed for Forbes, or maybe not, as he seems to be a semi-regular columnist for them.

Considering the evidence very clearly shows this is just a smear campaign and little more, a lot of the edits having been made to this article concern me. Especially this edit by Winner 42, which implies to me they know nothing about Wikipedia or RS's and shouldn't be allowed to edit at all. Of course, that implication doesn't make much sense, since they've been editing for a long time and have written GAs and such. Which then only allows one other conclusion: they are editing in bad faith and trying to POV slant the article because of personal biases against the subject. SilverserenC 23:50, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

COI allegations: wording.

According to an article in Nature, in August 2015, the investigation began to produce documents which indicated that he had not committed scientific misconduct, but revealed that he had close ties to Monsanto and other biotechnology interests and that he had received a unrestricted $25,000 grant from Monsanto.[5] Folta responded to this article by denying the article's claims that he had "close ties" to Monsanto.[8]

To me, this seems like bad style. The sentence is way too long, and the first part actually severely modulates the truth value of the last part. The last part, however, starts with a "but", which actually negates the first part. Without careful and close reading, it might not occur that this is what a blog article on Nature said, and that those statements might not (and to are not exactly) factual. Was the "grant" unrestricted? From what I read, it was actually tied to the outreach program. That's not unrestricted. Also, "close ties" doesn't seem like a word that should be used like that in an encyclopedia, but that might be only me.--2A02:8070:8883:CA00:F9D1:2926:E0D9:E757 (talk) 23:51, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's actually two sentences in the original article, and whoever wrote that phrasing dropped something which I added. Can I invite you to signup for an account? Jerod Lycett (talk) 00:02, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Nope. I spent way too much time on a non-English(hint:not a native speaker of en) wikipedia (including admin stuff) and essentially was driven out. I'm sure you've heard stories like this a plenty. I'll be gone sooner than later, and I'll not do any actual edits, sorry.
I just saw this article being discussed in a social network and this sentence immediately struck my eye. It's not only meandering, it's also reported speech. I'm not even sure what the purpose is. I don't feel informed reading it. Yes, there's that blog entry on Nature with its interpretations. But there's also actual source emails (caveat: cherry picked and out of context), as well as Folta's statements for further context. Can we un-entangle this, instead of trying to cram everything into one sentence or even paragraph? --2A02:8070:8883:CA00:F9D1:2926:E0D9:E757 (talk) 00:15, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Unrestricted grants have special meaning in ag research. As a professor, a company says you can do whatever you want with the money in exchange for doing a research trial, outreach program, etc. regardless of results (part of where unrestricted comes in). On the university side, the professor may dedicate that money to specific program of theirs (which is also why they money could be moved to another program as it was). Just a caution that unrestricted funding is a bit of a jargon term in this context. Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:21, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Do we have wikilink for that version of unrestricted, I think it's quite important to include that. Jerod Lycett (talk) 00:25, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That may be so, but you've got to explain this to readers, or not use that kind of jargon. "Unrestricted" is a common word most readers will understand literally. I suggest not using it, and instead just say what such a grant may be used for, and what it has been used for. Much clearer, no? --2A02:8070:8883:CA00:F9D1:2926:E0D9:E757 (talk) 00:30, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that really needs to be better defined in the article. Most people will think unrestricted actually means bribe, when it really means non-influenced. SilverserenC 00:32, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's part of the problem and play on words. I think it's as good as we can do for now, but I'll do some digging tomorrow on if we have sources we can use here that describe it. It's tough because professors almost never talk about the jargon at that level except to their account people, much less sources we'd use on Wikipedia. Maybe I'll pay a visit to our university accounting folks and pick their brains on any descriptive paper sources other universities might put out (especially where I might find them for Florida). Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:35, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It is indeed much better now. Best of luck finding good sources for such specific jargon. However, as you pointed out, it seems to be a term only used by very few people. Consider Wikipedia:Technical and Wikipedia:Jargon --2A02:8070:8883:CA00:F9D1:2926:E0D9:E757 (talk) 00:57, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@IP, I just try to invite all IP editors to join, I'm sure you realize how IP editors get treated here. Jerod Lycett (talk) 00:25, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Nature states: "The records, which the university gave to US Right to Know last month, do not suggest scientific misconduct or wrongdoing by Folta. But they do reveal his close ties to the agriculture giant Monsanto, of St Louis, Missouri, and other biotechnology-industry interests." That is unambiguous: there was no scientific misconduct. The version you quote makes it seem that early evidence doesn't support scientific misconduct, but dear me, look at these links, no smoke without fire, get the pitchforks and form an orderly mob. Guy (Help!) 15:11, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Wuerzele: The statement about email exchanges is unnecessary because the very next line details the communications. Including the email exchanges part seems redundant and purposefully POV-negative toward the BLP subject. SilverserenC 19:08, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

POV disclosures

Off-topic per WP:FOC

Before anything breaks out into an edit war, anyone else care to join with me on this? This isn't a count, nor is it meant for consensus, just as a guide to others, so we can understand who may have emotions involved on what end.

you mean Pro-Science? --2A02:8070:8883:CA00:F9D1:2926:E0D9:E757 (talk) 23:53, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Funny timing, what with my response below. SilverserenC 23:55, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And you're right on point with regards to work in an encyclopedia (I used to write a lot for wiki (not en), but the internal wars made me stop. Sigh.). Still, I'd actually be curious if someone assigns themselves to the middle category. --2A02:8070:8883:CA00:F9D1:2926:E0D9:E757 (talk) 23:59, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Pro-GMO

Anti-GMO

Pro-Science

  • This is stupid and pointless. I support the scientific consensus on all subjects, including the safety of biotechnology and vaccines and the existence of anthropogenic climate change. That's all science and Wikipedia is meant to present science, not fringe nonsense as if it's true. SilverserenC 23:55, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm closing this as this is inappropriate for an article talk page. We are expected to check in any POV we have at login afterall. Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:01, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Self published source " Between Scientists and Citizens"

The Blog "Between Scientists and Citizens" written by a certain Jean Goodwin, looks terribly tendentious, uses dramatic rhethoric (Folta "targeted by McCarthy-style attacks") and has climate change pieces on it making fun of James Hansen. Winner 42 had removed it stating in his editsummary why: Self published source. However, agroscience editor, which is what Kingofaces calls himself, re-introduced it with the misleading edit summary: "Restore sources with better attribution per WP:BLPSPS. If there's some wording that doesn't quite match up, happy to discuss on talk." but not discussing after a bold edit was reverted is NOT DISCUSSING. This is editwarring, even though King writes nonchalantly" happy to discuss". The source is an absolute no no for WP. --Wuerzele (talk) 10:33, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Rubbish. Wikipedia allows for statements by individuals to be sourced from their own self-published work, as this is. It would not be admissible as a statement of fact in respect of some contentious item, but as a source for a statement by Folta about the matter in question, it is entirely legitimate. That does not in any way prejudge the veracity of the statement, it is clearly his own words on his own site and the reader can conclude for xyrself whether to accept it in the context. Guy (Help!) 15:08, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It appears that you mixed up sources, JzG/Guy: I am not talking about Folta's own blog. It is WP:Uncivil to call my communication "rubbish".--Wuerzele (talk) 18:33, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

edit warring about COI investigation

@Wuerzele: Retroactively moved comment here The statement about email exchanges is unnecessary because the very next line details the communications. Including the email exchanges part seems redundant and purposefully POV-negative toward the BLP subject. SilverserenC 19:08, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Over the last 9 hours I have been trying to straighten out language of this page, keeping info according to the main sources ( (Nature, NYT and an admissible WP:SPS, Foltas blog) and and pointed out ONE unacceptable source ( section above), reverted reinsertions per WP:BRD, was reverted and have discussed here.
Silver seren, Kingofaces43, Glen, Jerodlycett have clearly expressed their feelings and/or opinion about the COI above investigation ("smear campaign"}, and Winner 42 who has expressed his position as "extremely pro-science and pro GMO here, has done good work eliminating unreliable sources, yet was attacked by Silverseren here, after which winner 42 filed an ANI against him.-- Oh my!
Gentlemen, please chill, and work with the page, which Kevin Folta apparently wrote himself, as Jerodlycett said here. I think we dont need to make the tempest in the teacup bigger than it is. Please read my arguments. I am not asking much. When I move a wikilink to prevent sea-of blue consecutive links as here chill, think, discuss and don't revert a copy edit. thanks in advance. --Wuerzele (talk) 19:13, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Wuerzele, i'm still contemplating on whether I want to take this article to AfD or not. It very clearly runs afoul of WP:1E and notability requirements, as there don't seem to be any actual sources about Folta or his work. And before this controversy, the only reliable sources about him seem to have been a few discussing his challenge to Bill Nye and a smaller amount discussing his challenge to an anti-GMO person. That's it. Nothing that would meet actual BLP requirements and put this article beyond being an attack article on a BLP subject based around a controversy. If the source of the controversy had been about his actual scientific work, then it might be different, but the entire controversy seems to be just about attacking him personally. And with no other notability to stand on, this article really shouldn't even exist. SilverserenC 19:29, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
interesting suggestion. no comment. i am busy working on keeping this NPOV as long as it exists.--Wuerzele (talk) 20:01, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Editing your comment to make it an aspersion against me is pretty sad. Just saying. It rather puts your claimed neutrality in question. SilverserenC 19:50, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
what aspersion? --Wuerzele (talk) 20:23, 14 September 2015 (UTC),[reply]
oh and please dont forget to move your comment filed in an old section down here, as I asked you here and here twice politely on your talk page now!--Wuerzele (talk) 20:23, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Which I already did long before you made this comment. A full thirty minutes before, in fact. Is this how you work, make subtle negative comments about people and never explain your own actions while calling out everyone else for opposing what you're doing? SilverserenC 20:30, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
your reply is still invisible in this section, so you are incorrect. you also didnt reply to my question "what aspersion", INSTEAD you make convoluted aspersions against me, non-constructive and obviating transparency. This is an artcle talk page.--Wuerzele (talk) 20:42, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Wuerzele: You're the one that needs to discuss things. You seem to be following (re)move, accuse, and that's about it. Can you explain why when you get reverted you don't discuss it, bur just keep putting it back even when others revert you too? It's very disruptive. Jerod Lycett (talk) 20:13, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Jerod, I do discuss, and I am glad we are talking. you have overlooked my edit summaries . I quote per source: "Folta received..." is what Nature says. There is nothing BAD in stating that. Please lets agree on that, read the source, its even quoted in the reference itself, look. If you want to explain in the text, that it goes through the UofF go ahead, please. I thanked you for the other edit , that was a good one --Wuerzele (talk) 20:17, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Glen I see you insist on this version, preferring to slapping a 3RR template on my page instead to discuss. show me this sentence in the Nature article "We funded Dr. Folta's proposal through an unrestricted grant to the University of Florida". It is not there. so, stop introducing wrong information. I suggested an alternative already, write an explanatory sentence. and I will offer another one: write the sentence and attribute it with another source that states it. --Wuerzele (talk) 22:40, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's pretty obvious you don't understand what an unrestricted grant actually is. We discuss it in a section up above. A grant has to be to a university for a professor This is further shown by the university being able to move the grant to something else, something they couldn't have done if the grant hadn't been given to them. SilverserenC 22:46, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Told you the term shouldn't be used, as per cited guidelines. --2A02:8070:8883:CA00:20E9:98C2:7B69:41CF (talk) 23:17, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I left here yesterday thinking this article is on good tracks. Now I come back and find several issues. Yawn?

  1. Notability. You guys need to settle this pronto. It's a waste of time arguing about things if notability isn't given and the article shouldn't even be here. Priority #1. In German Wikipedia, professors of Folta's caliber are deemed notable, especially due to their obvious impact on research. No idea what your guidelines say. He's also somewhat of a person of public interest, no? What do the guidelines say? Easy question.
  2. NPOV. Oh joy. Come on. You're trying to write an encyclopedia. This means you absolutely have to filter out personal feelings, and those of others. It's not rocket science to formulate this in neutral language. You know what non-neutral language looks like. I can also refer to guidelines. If you think neutral language doesn't fit, write a blog about that but leave wiki alone. This is an encyclopedia, not an opinion platform. You might think it's important to "flavor" an article, but it's not. Imagine everyone thought that way. Wikipedia would be useless. Thank you. --2A02:8070:8883:CA00:20E9:98C2:7B69:41CF (talk) 23:04, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

self published source: Neurologica blog

I removed another shrill, non-permissible source for WP:BLP at the end of the COI section: Novella,Steven (11 September 2015). "How To Attack a Public Scientist". Neurologica Blog. Retrieved 11 September 2015.. someone really is pushing the martyr image, here.--Wuerzele (talk) 00:18, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I undid it. You really need to discuss changes before making them here if you want to be seen as editing constructively, as your changes are obviously not making consensus. Jerod Lycett (talk) 00:21, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is incorrect. no editor needs to discuss changes before making tehm. The source is not allowed per WP:BLP. clearcase. take it to ANI if you want.
Steven Novella is most definitely a permissible source. He is the very definition of an expert source. SilverserenC 00:35, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
this is a nonsensical, illogical, irrational reply. I am afraid that in this short time since I have met you , after assuming best of faith, thanking you where possible, I have seen you contribute mostly noise. you are also not courteous, you do not reply to issues, but waffle, you bicker and therefore waste space on talk pages. You are are the very definition of a WP:troll on this page. --Wuerzele (talk) 02:01, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What, because I and others are opposing your clear attempts to negatively slant the article? SilverserenC 02:44, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Wuerzele, I'm trying to figure out what is the matter with you. Someone says, as it turns out correctly, that person X is an expert (and thus deserves to be cited here, as an expert in the field), and you launch into a personal attack that makes not a bit of sense. JzG, you're the fringe expert, please have a look at Wuerzele's comments and see if they deserve a warning or notification of some sort. In the meantime, I am going to warn them for a personal attack--this rant was ridiculous. Drmies (talk) 02:53, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Drmies, we havent met before. I am impressed by your extremely quick judgement. I am trying to figure out in what capacity you post what you post here. I hope this is a bit more polite than "what is the matter with you". Are you posting here as an administrator that has to decide if Jerod lycett violated the 3RR rule? Or as a WP editor of the page, or maybe both?
  • Re "Someone says, as it turns out correctly, that person X is an expert (and thus deserves to be cited here, as an expert in the field)" User:Silver seren claims that Novella is an expert and you believe Silver seren. why? Steven Novella is a neurologist and no expert on this situation. Please explain why Silver seren is correct and why Steven Novella is an expert.
  • Re: "you launch into a personal attack that makes not a bit of sense." I disagree with your opinion. I have not attacked Silver seren. I mentioned the word troll, which is no personal attack, but a fact-based description of what you can see for yourself in the diffs of Silver seren's editing and talking here and so the term makes more than "a bit of sense".
  • Re:"..fringe expert, please have a look at Wuerzele's comments and see if they deserve a warning or notification of some sort." Please explain why you are suspecting "fringe" in my comments. It is interesting that you order a known tendentious editor JzG to check my comments out for fringe. First this shows your bias, and with whom you side as an administrator. shouldn't you have recused yourself in the 3RR case if you have such strong alliances or maybe opinions on this? Second, you admit that you actually did not carefully read any of my comments here or in the edit summaries, nor did you check any other background of mine, otherwise you would not have surmised WP:Fringe, nor would you have needed someone else to make that call "for you".
I hope you understand why I question why you are posting here. The content issue of this section is, that the Novella blog is clearly non permissible for WP:BLP, which you havent mentioned, and I wonder why not.....Looking forward to your polite reply. --Wuerzele (talk) 04:31, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Troll" can well be a personal attack. Also, I didn't "order" JzG, who is a known longterm admin with sound judgment--I asked them for their opinion, since they are better acquainted with the relevant ArbCom rulings than I am. My opinion is confirmed by your response: I think you are a POV warrior and you are poisoning the atmosphere here. Drmies (talk) 04:35, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think it would be best to focus on content here rather than contributors. Wuerzele has asked some straightforward questions to clarify why the Novella blog is being used here. As blogs are often avoided as sources, such questions seem reasonable and the answers, while evident to some, may not be clear to all - working through the questions will help everyone move past this.Dialectric (talk) 07:17, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest mediation

This issue has been raised as a COI issue at WP:COIN#Kevin_Folta and as an edit warring issue at WP:AN/Edit warring#User:Jerodlycett reported by User:wuerzele. There appears to be a COI issue, a BLP issue, edit warring, personal attacks, a huge number of recent edits starting Sep. 13, 2015, and a surprising number of involved editors who haven't been editing much else recently. I don't think we can do much for this at WP:COIN, and there are too many editors involved for simple 3RR blocks to help much. This article is going to need some form of dispute resolution. I suggest mediation. See WP:DISPUTE for the process. Thanks. John Nagle (talk) 07:18, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There's a simple reason behind this, the "Folta case" is being pushed on social media. It's essentially a smear-campaign driven by certain interests groups who oppose Folta's science outreach program. This attracts people with bias (of any kind), as it always does. Rigorous editing is needed to avoid adding slanderous passages that might be subject to legal action. Over time, things will calm down, but as of now, it's probably a good idea to lock the article in a state that is as NPOV as possible and sit out the storm. YMMV --2A02:8070:8883:CA00:20E9:98C2:7B69:41CF (talk) 11:17, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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