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This is a subpage of Talk:Kiev for discussing the name of the article Kiev. Please take all discussion of the name here, reserving the regular talkpage for other matters. I hope that this division will benefit both the regular talkpage and the name discussion itself. Happy editing. Bishonen | talk.

Please note that due to technical reasons any actual move requests need to be made on Talk:Kiev, but should be moved here after they have closed. 199.125.109.99 (talk)

War between Ukraine and Russia 2014

Do you understand that the name of capital is a big deal for many Ukrainians? Especially now, when Russian occupants are killing our people. And Kiev is the Russian variant of name of our capital. It's a matter of moral and political correctness, not only tradition. OlegGerdiy (talk) 18:20, 22 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Please read this talk page and archives carefully before posting WP:POV, emotional arguments. In a nutshell, WP:COMMONNAME applies: Kiev is neither the Russian nor Martian variant of the city, but is the long established English language naming convention in the Anglosphere. This convention has been markedly reinforced as being the established standard as evidenced by the continued use of 'Kiev' in the Anglophone media. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:48, 22 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like somebody here considers deaths of people unimportant and speaking about that to be to emotional. Then consider only political correctness. When one group of people traditionally uses some name that seems to be offensive to the other group. While it's easy to move to another name. For example, consider terminolgy "African American". -- OlegGerdiy (talk) 18:41, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Iryna Harpy is correct, "Kiev" isn't the Russian name (that's Киев), it's the most commonly used name for Ukraine's capital in English. Just look at the majority of English language news media from this weekend and you will be hard-pressed to find a single example of "Kyiv" in use--even in articles that are unequivocally pro-Ukrainian. No emotion involved, it's just the fact. (And Iryna is clearly Ukrainian by the spelling of her name--"Iryna" rather than "Irina".) --Taivo (talk) 20:03, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Deaths are not unimportant, but they are irrelevant to the discussion at hand. The commonly used name for this city in English is "Kiev", and there is nothing inherently offensive about that. If the commonly used name was something like "City of Worthless Shitheaded Assholes" a protest would be valid and should be complied with, but you are extending Ukrainian sensitivities onto another language where they do not exist and are not appropriate for consideration. You have no more standing to protest the English usage of "Kiev" than you do the English usage of "blue", "happy", "circle", "mountain" or any other English word. --Khajidha (talk) 13:40, 25 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

SlavaUkrainiGeroyamSlava (talk) 01:27, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

User talk:Iryna Harpy Once in Anglospere was very common to name African American with the word starting with the letter N. Now it's not common. Things change. It's time for changes. Why don't you want not to offense Ukrainians? Why do you put the common name over offense?

What is important: truth or some commonname? Wikipedia MUST prefer truth not something somewhere "common". It was very common (as said the user previously) in the past call African Americans with the word starting with letter N. It's not common anymore. Change please it. Don't be bureaucratic. Be truthful. All the English speaking authorities already change to Kyiv. Why wikipedian users are so slow and ignorant? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SlavaUkrainiGeroyamSlava (talk • contribs) 00:16, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No, you are quite wrong that "all English speaking authorities" have changed usage to "Kyiv". Almost all media outlets still use "Kiev". That is the common English name. Once you convince 400 billion English speakers to stop using "Kiev", then Wikipedia will change. But for now, the name of Ukraine's capital in the English language is still "Kiev". Sorry if you don't like it, but that's the fact. If it offends you so much, then you can stop reading and editing the English Wikipedia and stick with the Ukrainian Wikipedia. --Taivo (talk) 00:26, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The truth is the common name in English is Kiev. [1] --NeilN talk to me 00:39, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Taivo Yes. We are talking about governments not some media outlets. We are talking OFFICIAL point of view not of some media outlets. And of course not "ALL". Are you russian? Then tell me please it as soon as possible to stop this useless conversation. I ask one more time: just don't offend Ukrainians. Can you understand that? Let you be first of those "400" billions of trillions English speakers who will not offend us. Thanks! User:NeilN Hey man! If you don't find the truth important then ok. it's your right but I would like to ask you: can you don't offend us please? We would be very appreciated. US government already did that. Thanks a lot indeed! — Preceding unsigned comment added by SlavaUkrainiGeroyamSlava (talk • contribs) 00:45, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hey SlavaUkrainiGeroyamSlava! Please don't offend Wikipedians by pushing your nationalistic view on a global encyclopedia. Thanks! --NeilN talk to me 00:50, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:NeilN Thanks a lot that stopped to offense Ukrainians! True Wikipedians don't offend any nation. You are and those man not Wikipedians. You are very likely russian agents. I need to submit complaint to Wikipedia admins. Wikipedia is a place for truth not offense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SlavaUkrainiGeroyamSlava (talk • contribs) 00:56, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Accusing people of being Russian when they are not is probably offensive to both Russians and non-Russians. Now that we've established that you're also offending people of other nations, perhaps we can move on? Thanks. - BilCat (talk) 01:01, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:BilCat As you can see I started from that I don't want to offend anyone I just ask not to offend us Ukrainians. The guys answered that it's more important to use the common name even it's offensive. And you have joined their group. Why do you all insist on that? What's reason to insist? Let's Kiev be optional name as it is and Kyiv main one. - — Preceding unsigned comment added by SlavaUkrainiGeroyamSlava (talk)
But you are offending people, whether you intended to or not. Including me. So stop calling people Russians when you don't where anyone on here is actually from. And I haven't taken sides in this conversation, I just asked you to stop being offensive yourself. Now, it's been explained to you that English WP does not use official names, but common names. That's why they are are insisting. - BilCat (talk) 01:18, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:BilCat Ok. How to be if the common name is offensive? For example like N. for African American? I don't want to offend anyone. Those guys insist on offending me. I don't know why they put the common name over the offense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SlavaUkrainiGeroyamSlava (talk • contribs) 01:23, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Because it's not a racial epithet like N. Kiev is just the English spelling. - BilCat (talk) 01:36, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:BilCat I am Ukrainian. I live in Kyiv. I am telling you: that's offensive. Let's repeat: How to be if the common name is considered to be offensive by Ukrainians and population of Kyiv particularly? I am here not to offend anyone. I am here because I read letters: N. instead African American. Why do you insist like I am trying to change London to Лондон or Washington to Вашингтон? I just don't want to be called N. instead African American SlavaUkrainiGeroyamSlava (talk) 01:46, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Bluntly speaking, you are making that up. National Geographic, one of the most culturally sensitive organizations in the world, uses Kiev on its English language maps. [2] --NeilN talk to me 01:51, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:NeilN I repeat: I am Ukrainian. I am a citizen of Ukraine. I am a resident of Kyiv. It's offensive. Can you please not offend me? National Geographic, The Pope anyone else don't change it. It's just offesnive. Why should I ask you all guys not to offend me?! I cannot believe is this Wikipedia or a club of ignorant people? Truth VS common name. I am very sad. SlavaUkrainiGeroyamSlava (talk) 02:10, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's not offensive to refer to the capital of Ukraine as Kiev, even in Ukraine. I know because I have lived in Ukraine. Ukrainians, both in East and West (I have lived in both parts), understand the simple truth that the capital is called "Kiev" in English, just as the capital of Russia is "Moscow" (not Moskva), the capital of Poland is "Warsaw" (not Warszawa), and the capital of the Czech Republic is "Prague" (not Praha). These are their English names. You are claiming "offensiveness" where none actually exists except in your own nationalist fantasy world. Wikipedia is not bound by official American or British government declarations, nor by Ukrainian politics. It is bound by common English usage. That's the Wikipedia rule. Wikipedia does not dictate usage, it follows usage. You convince 400 billion English speakers to spell the name of Ukraine's capital as "Kyiv" and Wikipedia will change. But English speakers are only halfway to talking about "Ukraine" and not "the Ukraine". You shouldn't hold your breath. --Taivo (talk) 01:53, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Taivo I am Ukrainian, a Ukrainian citizen and a resident of Kyiv. I am asking you the last time: please don't offend me. Who you are to decide how should it be? Are you Martin Luther King jr to decide how to call African Americans? Do you know how many millions people called African Americans N.? By your logic it was ok. Common sense and truth are more important than some common words/names and habits. SlavaUkrainiGeroyamSlava (talk) 02:06, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If you actually want to learn something, read the article Nigger: 'By the 1900s, nigger had become a pejorative word. In its stead, the term colored became the mainstream alternative to negro and its derived terms. Abolitionists in Boston, Massachusetts, posted warnings to the Colored People of Boston and vicinity. Writing in 1904, journalist Clifton Johnson documented the "opprobrious" character of the word nigger, emphasizing that it was chosen in the South precisely because it was more offensive than "colored."' Got any reliable sources (not your opinion, not other nationalistic nonsense) emphasizing that Kiev is used because it's more offensive? --NeilN talk to me 02:13, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:NeilN it feels very "russian-soviet": "not other nationalistic nonsense". Take it: Google and Goole Maps find it offensive. US government and Google think it must be Kyiv. wikipedia and few guys that know everything about the local nationalists think the same as russians. Why are you killing by believe in wikipedia guys? By the way who exactly decide how will it be? Any polling or something like that? Why whould I ask here some ignorant people not to offend me and waste my time? SlavaUkrainiGeroyamSlava (talk) 02:24, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As you have presented no sources for "offensive" and nothing to rebut WP:COMMONNAME nothing will happen. --NeilN talk to me 02:28, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:NeilN so opinion of Google, US governments, all the Ukrainian governments is not significant in your opinion? Who you are I have to show any sources? What sources at all I am able to show you if Google the US government and Ukrainian governments mean nothing to you? Who you are to tell anything about some nationalistic nonsense? smells very russian-soviet. don't disclose yourself agent KGB Vanya! SlavaUkrainiGeroyamSlava (talk) 02:41, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Use by those governments and organizations doesn't make it common usage. No one trying to offend you, but unless you can do what Neil asked, and present reliable sources for Kiev being offensive, and can prove that Kyiv is more common in English language sources, then you are actually wasting your time here. None of us has the authority to change Kiev to Kyiv, and even if we did change it, it would be changed back again for violating WP policy. Sorry. If you're still offended, then English WP isn't for you, as Wikipedia is not a soapbox, nor a place for you to right great wrongs. - BilCat (talk) 02:55, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) I suspect we're wasting our time with you here but one more try: "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources." --NeilN talk to me 02:58, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks guys! The most important to me that you stopped to offend me. Love your policies and common names. Once upon a time Jimmy invented policies and you must obey them. Truth, human rights and politeness are not needed. They are not important. Have you ever thought why so many years so many people want to change it to a not offensive form? Just to have a fun? What reason to prevent it? Why Mumbai is not Bombay? What prevents Kyiv to be also known Kiev? SlavaUkrainiGeroyamSlava (talk) 03:22, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Slava has a problem anyway that I just noticed. If he were really Ukrainian, then he wouldn't be writing "Geroyam", but "Heroyam". The form with the "G" is Russian, the form with the "H" is Ukrainian. Just another day in the life of Wikipedia. --Taivo (talk) 03:12, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Taivo both forms are ok because Ukrainian Г (sound) cannot be precisely transliterated to English G. but from the official point of view you are right: Heroyam more accurate. Why haven't you noticed that Ukraini spelled without "Y" Ukrayini? That adds accuracy as well. Another useless day in the life of the wikibureaucracy? SlavaUkrainiGeroyamSlava (talk) 03:22, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, you're incorrect. In literary/cultural Ukrainian 'heroyam' is the correct pronunciation. Outside of that, you are being offensive towards editors who comprehend what WP:COMMONNAME actually is in the Anglophone world. I haven't seen a single instance of 'Kyiv' being used in Anglophile sources. Please stop banging on and telling experienced, regular editors about their being 'wrong'. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:47, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:Iryna Harpy Who are you to tell me what is offensive to me as Ukrainian, as a Ukrainain citizen and as a resident of Kyiv?! A native English speaker? Who forced making Mumbai to be Mumbai? British colonists or residents of the city? Can you please think not about common things but about truth? True is more important than common. Common doesn't make anything sens if it's not true. I ask you again: please don't offend me as Ukrainian as a citizen of Ukraine and a resident of Kyiv. Could you be so kind? Just that. Isn't it enough? I don't care you put common over true. It's your right. But I just don't want you to offend me. But you do want to do it and insist on that. It looks like really uncivilized. 94.244.129.207 (talk) 00:00, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Mumbai is the common name in English, not Bombay. But Bangalore is still the common English name for Bengaluru. - 03:29, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
User:RGloucester Can you please tell me when Mumbai started to be a common name and who forced that changes? 94.244.129.207 (talk) 00:00, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is nonsense. I find it very odd that this is even a problem. I'm fairly certain that most Kievans will either read or speak Russian at some point in the day on a daily basis. I certainly had no trouble finding people speaking Russian when I was in Kiev. Russia does not own the Russian language. RGloucester — ☎ 23:23, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:RGloucester Who are you to decide it? I am Ukrainian. I am a citizen of Ukraine. I am a resident of Kyiv. It offends me. Isn't it enough? How is it related that you have been in Kyiv and the local population talked with you in Russian to that Kiev is offensive form having the same roots as Mumbai-Bombay and N.-African American? 94.244.129.207 (talk) 00:00, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't propose to change it exclusively to Kyiv. It should be Kyiv(also known Kiev). Check please Mumbai. Absolutely the same situation. One to one. Thus: either Mumbai should become Bombay (also known Mumbai) or Kyiv should be change to Kyiv(also know Kiev). (But it does matter only if you don't put common over logical). 94.244.129.207 (talk) 00:13, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that you don't understand why the article is named Mumbai shows you have little understanding of our policy or just don't care about it. Either way, I'm recommending this discussion be closed by an uninvolved editor. --NeilN talk to me 00:18, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:NeilN The fact that you offend thousand of people doesn't care you? If it will be changed to Kyiv it won't offend those who know the current English common name. And that would solve the problem. The fact that you just have written that I don't understand why Mumbai is called Mumbai doesn't mean it is true. The reason because you have not written at least few words why do you think so. The second reason: you put common over true. You could put at least one reason but you just wrote words having no sense. 94.244.129.207 (talk) 00:23, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Do I care that readers looking for a reason to take offense will take offense? Nope. And [3] --NeilN talk to me 00:31, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:NeilN Can you please answer my question not your one? The fact that you offend thousand of people doesn't care you? Is Wikipedia policy yours? I thought it belongs to Wikipedia not you or a group of such persons as you are. isn't? Because if it really belongs to you and similar to you it's a very sad news. Will you wait until we Ukrainians and residents of Kyiv would change everywhere that name to Kyiv and then Wikipedia would decide to change its common name? Isn't Wikipedia a liberal place? not a group of highly conservative bureaucrats? 94.244.129.207 (talk) 00:38, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I did answer it. Let me be more clear. I do not care of Wikipedia content offends those who cling to religious/sexist/racist/nationalistic dogma. Article content is not tailored so that these readers can feel good about their beliefs, We actually do have a policy on this - WP:NOTCENSORED. --NeilN talk to me 00:46, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:NeilN You haven't answered to MY question but said you have done. You love truth. You reject Google's point of view on the problem BUT give the link to their website. Consistency is your choice. Continue to offend us. You are not a person whose opinion does matter. Enjoy your common name as long as you want. I am tired to ask not to offend me. 94.244.129.207 (talk) 00:56, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you get it now. Wikipedia doesn't care about your feelings, my feelings, anyone's feelings. It cares about accuracy. "Kiev" is the English name for Ukraine's capital, used by the most English language sources for centuries. That's just the simple fact. --Taivo (talk) 02:26, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Taivo Yes I have got something and that something is sad. By the way mazapuker (I hope this word doesn't offend you and doesn't touch your feelings - it's just a set of letters) what can you say about Mumbai and Bombay? Or consistency is not your choice mazapuker? 94.244.129.207 (talk) 02:53, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Since you have nothing more to say but a personal attack, we are done here. If you want to know the resolution to Mumbai or Beijing or any of a hundred other false or irrelevant arguments that you might raise, please do your homework and read the archives. It's all been discussed before. --Taivo (talk) 03:55, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Taivo Where have you seen any personal attacks? You just personally prefer to offend me. What can I do about it? I don't know. And yes I don't want to continue any conversations with ignorant mazapukers. Poor those people who discussed that with you and similar to you. I understand them very well. Are you so unintellegent mazapuker? Have you ever thought if there won't be any problem you would never see me here Ukrainian a citizen of Ukraine and a resident of Kyiv telling you that? Like African American that trying to make someone to stop calling him N. Very sad you are not liberal enough to understand that. It is inevitable but your conservative mind wants to stop it. Everything changes. After your death (if Wikipedia will exist) it for sure will be Kyiv and you won't exist by that time and couldn't change it. Why are you trying to stop things which you cannot change? What kind of perversion is it? 94.244.129.207 (talk) 04:41, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'll tell you what, zaspanets', stop attacking good faith editors who know a lot more than you do about how Wikipedia works. You're not here to do anything than push your own POV as to righting great wrongs. As was succinctly noted by another editor somewhere in the archives, if you think that you're going to make any form of impact on English Wikipedia and the world by focussing on the Anglophone world's spelling of 'Kiev' rather than 'Kyiv', you are so far off-track that it truly is sad. There's no more to be said on the matter, full stop. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:49, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Iryna Harpy Why are you sitting somewhere very far from that poor city Kyiv and with your good faith mazapukers teach me how my native city should be called in your offensive anglofon world?! Guys and girls you are deeply ignorant. Please stop puking offend me. Why cannot you so clever guys and girls understand that? Just stop. I don't ask you to do something for me. I ask you to stop your offence. You are doing bad thing trying to protect your wrong and bad habits. I said: very long time a lot of people called African Americans N. - it's not true anymore. Why is it so hard to you? Are you all 100 years old and your mind just physically cannot change anymore? Why I had to ask you not to offend me?! Why Mumbai(also known Bombay) but not Bombay(also known Mumbai)?! Do you have mind at all? Your mind is closed to incoming information. Bye. Hope you will go to your ancestors as soon as possible and your habits will go under the ground and you will stop offend me. 94.244.129.207 (talk) 05:08, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The important distinction is that the English place name "Kiev" is not offensive in English, the English racial epithet "nigger" is offensive in English. How can what is done in one language be offensive to speakers of another? --Khajidha (talk) 12:53, 2 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What is you to decide what is offensive to Ukrainians and residents of Kyiv or not? Who has put in your mind so powerful charge of ignorance that you tenderly bear throughout all your life and share with normal people on Wikipedia? Khajidha SlavaUkrainiGeroyamSlava (talk) 10:28, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Who are you to dictate to speakers of a different language how they must speak? What other words is the English language no longer to be allowed to use? --Khajidha (talk) 10:57, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well said, Khajidha. Frankly, I consider it to be highly offensive that this user should even suggest that the use of "nigger" and the use of "Kiev" - a centuries old Anglophone COMMONNAME - as being analogous. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 02:14, 3 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. And the wishing you (and me, before it was removed) dead simply destroys any credibility or good faith he/she may have been given. --Khajidha (talk) 12:20, 3 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In all my years of editing Wikipedia, I've never seen one editor wishing another dead before. It definitely gives a new spin to "battlefield" mentality. --Taivo (talk) 15:19, 3 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It certainly puts a new spin on the concept of being 'on the offensive'. I wouldn't want to have a 'discussion' with this user face-to-face! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:47, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(Redacted) SlavaUkrainiGeroyamSlava (talk) 10:25, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Slava, there is nothing offensive about using a standard English term when speaking English. Your taking offense to it is as nonsensical as taking offense to the use of the words "blue", "mountain", "happy", or "circle" in English. If there is any ignorance at play in this conversation, it is yours. --Khajidha (talk) 10:51, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
SlavaUkrainiGeroyamSlava, be grateful to NeilN for WP:RPAing that comment (although it still exists in the edit history). You've now very close to overtly overstepping no personal attacks and are moving into the territory of serious personal attacks. Please familiarise yourself with WP:CIVIL. Any more such personal attacks will not be overlooked. I've tolerated your behaviour thus far as you're apparently a new user. I've now guided you to a cornerstone policy regarding the project (that is, civility). My suggestion is that, since you feel such personal animosity towards me, you cease communications with me, as this will be my final communication with you. Thank you for your understanding. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:17, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:SlavaUkrainiGeroyamSlava has been indef blocked for his death wishes and his disruptive comments here. --Taivo (talk) 01:12, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Cheers, Taivo. I only just noticed that after posting here and was going to self-rv the last comment I made. Under the circumstances, I think it may as well stand as is. Considering the large number of very aggressive POV editors coming to this page, either with or without a fundamental understanding of Wikipedia's policies, and pushing the envelope when it comes to assuming bad faith to becoming downright abusive, it will (hopefully) serve to inform new users who are genuinely good faith to read through the archives, and to comprehend that it's unacceptable to attack other editors. Personalising policy-based decisions and making assumptions about experienced, good faith editors is truly bad form. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:26, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have a suggestion

Let's rename this article to Kyiv and see how much it will reduce the level of debates around it. 46.63.38.5 (talk) 23:27, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers for the suggestion, but that would be missing the point of this talk page. It's referenced on a number of other talk pages as the forum for any queries surrounding nomenclature, and the objective is to distinguish between WP:COMMONNAME and the use of the Ukrainian transliteration of the Ukrainian name in English. As the discussion surrounds the English nomenclature, the WP:TITLE of the talk page is appropriate. The purpose isn't to fly under the radar and make executive decisions without broader community input. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:47, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have a better suggestion. Definitively prove that "Kyiv" is more common in actual English usage than "Kiev". --Taivo (talk) 00:53, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The Embassy of the United States (http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/contact-information.html) and British Embassy (https://www.gov.uk/government/world/organisations/british-embassy-kyiv) officially uses Kyiv, so „Kiev” is just a common mistake and nothing else. Encyclopedia isn't a place for mistakes, even if they are common. 46.63.38.5 (talk) 10:11, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's not proof that the common English usage is "Kyiv". That's just government policy. Unless you've lived in a cave all your life you would know that government policy means absolutely nothing when it comes to common English usage. --Taivo (talk) 10:31, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Official usage in many English-speaking countries from reliable sources is not a proof for ecyclopedia? Thank you, I lol'd. 46.63.38.5 (talk) 10:48, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As Taivo said, that is not proof of COMMON USAGE. That is, usage by the ordinary person, in journalism, and in literature. The English language is not government regulated. --Khajidha (talk) 11:45, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Then you can read this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_University_of_Kyiv-Mohyla_Academy: „The university is bilingual in Ukrainian and English. It is one of Ukraine’s few universities with internationally recognized diplomas”. Do you think that university with education in English and internationally recognized diplomas calls itself wrong? 46.63.38.5 (talk) 13:04, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As a Ukrainian university it's usage is dominated by Ukrainian language norms, whatever language instruction is offered in. Usage of English as a foreign language has no bearing on standard English usage. --Khajidha (talk) 13:11, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That would just cause a lot of people to demand that it be moved back to Kiev. --Khajidha (talk) 00:58, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And I'm still waiting on an explanation of how it is offensive in the first place. I can understand the offensiveness of using a Russian name in Ukrainian, but this is neither using the Russian name nor written in Ukrainian. It is using the English name in English. Yes, the English name is derived from the Russian name, but that doesn't make it a Russian word any more than microscope is a Latin word just because it is derived from Latin. --Khajidha (talk) 01:04, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
For me it's not offensive, it's just wrong. Serious mass encyclopedia must not contain such mistakes. 46.63.38.5 (talk) 10:22, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There is nothing "wrong" about it. The English word for a place to sit at a desk is "chair". The English name of the sea south of Ukraine is "the Black Sea". The English name of the capital of Kansas is "Topeka". The English name of the capital of Ukraine is "Kiev". --Taivo (talk) 10:31, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The English name of the capital of Ukraine is Kyiv. Please, stop propagate mistakes. 46.63.38.5 (talk) 10:55, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
We aren't. We are propagating the common and correct English usage. --Khajidha (talk) 11:45, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
So you think that the government of your country and governments of many other English-speaking countries propagating wrong English usage? I lol'd again. It's a conspiracy, not otherwise. Or maybe really it's just you? 46.63.38.5 (talk) 12:32, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There is a huge difference between the language of diplomats and the general language. Wikipedia is written in the latter, not the former. --Khajidha (talk) 12:47, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is tantamount to Germans demanding "Cologne" be dropped in favor of Koeln since the former is based on the French name of the city. It is the traditional English name. "Koeln" would be silly. The same is true of "Venice" (Venezia), "Florence" (Firenze), Munich (Muenchen), Warsaw (Warshawa) and many, many other examples. Beijing is still called "Peking" in Russian and Ukrainian....perhaps Ukrainians should be concerned with correcting their own language? I would also like to point out that the letter "y" in modern English cannot produce the sound which Ukraine's government ascribes to it in their official orthography. Sorry, but I deny the authority of the Ukrainian government to determine the rules of English orthography. The traditional spelling "Kiev" approximates the pronunciation of the name in Ukrainian and Russian. I would think that Ukrainians of all people (and these demands to change come almost exclusively from Ukrainians) would be sensitive to the the issue of having one's language controlled by someone else. The root of the matter is that in the Russophobic world view of Ukrainian extremists (who do not represent the whole country of Ukraine), Russia's tentacles extend everywhere. When in reality (from which they are sadly completely detached), the English usage has nothing at all to do with Russia or "Russian spelling" (which uses a different alphabet from English) but is the correct spelling of an *English* word which has been attested for centuries. Giordano Bruno (talk) 12:50, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If those arguing for the use of 'Kyiv' actually bothered to read this talk page, including the archives, they'd find exactly the same arguments surrounding the 'native' use as opposed to the English language use being presented time and time again, GiordanoBruno683. The same can be said of the use of Greece, Turkey, Hungary, etc. as regards the names of countries alone. So why isn't 'Moscow' 'Muskva'/'Moskva' (dependent on whether we're basing this on transliteration or pronunciation)?
This talk page has become a sinkhole for editor time and energy, particularly in light of the fact that events over the last year and a half have unquestionably established that 'Kiev' is the accepted convention in the Anglophone world. I'm sorely tempted to move that it be turned into a FAQ with questions being raised again and again and the responses. The premise behind it should be that those who wish to argue for 'Kyiv' must have some new, well supported arguments for 'Kyiv'. I think we've all had enough of both the good faith arguments from those who haven't read the archives (and these are few and far between). This talk page has established itself as being an outlet for WP:GRIEFING by WP:SPAs. How much more in the way of personal attacks, incivility and energy should regulars be obliged to endure when there are no arguments outside of emotional ones? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:13, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Official Ukrainian Document that states, that correct translation is "Kyiv"

Here is a scan of an official Ukrainian document (date Octover 14, 1995) that states, that the correct translation is Kyiv. https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/t31.0-8/11888580_1480893452235201_2746295501062537072_o.jpg OlegGerdiy (talk) 10:44, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Kiev" isn't a "translation", it's the name of Ukraine's capital in English as evidenced by multiple sources. The "transliteration" of the city's name from Ukrainian into the Roman alphabet is "Kyiv", but English speakers don't use that except in official government documents. That's just the way it is. "Moscow", "Warsaw", "Prague", "Copenhagen", etc. aren't "transliterations" from the native languages of those cities either--they are the names of those cities in English. The government of Ukraine has no more control over what the name of its capital city is in English than it has at the moment over Sevastopol. --Taivo (talk) 12:54, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Aside from all the points Taivo makes, I just have to ask: Why do you even care what name English uses for the city? What could it possibly matter to you? Do you wish to complain that English uses its own words for other things? Should all English speakers convert to using Ukrainian instead? I neither know, nor care, nor even consider myself to have the right to care what word the Ukrainian language uses to name any city in my country with the sole proviso that such names not be offensive within the Ukrainian language itself. As an illustration, if the English name of this city were "Shithole" THEN there would be valid reason to change it. --Khajidha (talk) 13:42, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yet another point: why all these 'Kyiv-fihters' are so concerned with English spelling of the city name, while spellings in Zulu, Icelandic and Japanese are completly irrelevant for them? (Francois (talk) 08:09, 6 September 2015 (UTC) - A former Kievan, who is not offended by THE English name of my city)[reply]
1) It seems to me Taivo has antiUkrainian mood - see the last sentense about Sevastopol ("The government of Ukraine has no more control over what the name of its capital city is in English than it has at the moment over Sevastopol.") - it sounds like he praises the occupation of Crimea by Russia. So again, it's an important political matter. 2) For me it's obvious that word "Kiev" is also not English word, but a transliteration from Russian language.

[User:OlegGerdiy|OlegGerdiy]] (talk) 09:57, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Let native English-speakers decide what is native English word and what is not. If you don't like English and its words - just use another language. BTW, nobody occupied us, Crimeans. Francois (talk) 11:43, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Does Ukraine have physical control over Sevastopol right now? Yes? No? Your comment that my statement of simple fact implies an anti-Ukrainian bias is stupid. All that matters here is the simple fact that "Kiev" is the common English name of Ukraine's capital. It doesn't matter whether the original source of the name was Russian or Polish or Swahili. All that matters is that "Kiev" is the name of the city in English, just as "Warsaw" is the name of Poland's capital in English and "Prague" is the name of the Czech Republic's capital in English, even though these names are neither Polish nor Czech. It's not about politics (I have lived and worked in western Ukraine and am married to a Ukrainian), it's about simple facts of the English language. --Taivo (talk) 11:11, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And "Cologne" is a direct borrowing from French, but that is still the English name of the German city and not the German form "Köln". The source of the name is irrelevant, it is English usage that matters. --Khajidha (talk) 14:08, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Arguing with those silly people, who cannot understand simple thing about how languages "work", is just waisting time. Imagine that they are also fighting with Russians in terms of Russian language. There are two different prepositions in Russian to say "in <country>" and for Ukraine Russians use a less common preposition. These silly people come to Russians and say how they must speak in their language forcing them to change the preposition. The same happens with similar silly people from Belarus - they come to Russians and say that their country is called Belarus' (Беларусь) and not Belorussia (Белоруссия). The last one is more traditional and more commonly used in Russian, but those idiots come and argue, again, and again, and again. It's a deficiency complex of a newly born nation in such people. 2A00:1028:8384:FDA:6028:8B4A:6E20:1F55 (talk) 21:44, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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