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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Kethrus II (talk | contribs) at 15:22, 1 November 2015 (→For the reliability of the discussions above...: archive). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Age?

Can we get some kind of verification on his age? Qaddosh (talk) 02:47, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Regular speaker at Libertopia link should be: http://www.libertopia.org/2013/speakers/MisterHOP (talk) 05:20, 7 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV dispute

Let this be a heading under which WP:NPOV (neutral point of view) discussion occurs. I'm pretty happy with [1] as a neutral(ish?) revision. I think the bitcoin atm thing is notable. ~Crazytales (talk) (edits) 23:07, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Flush this revert

Not every revert deserves a wikipedia page — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.195.169.211 (talk) 23:16, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Unsourced assertions removed. 75.108.94.227 (talk) 14:51, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Request for Comments

There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages.

The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion.

Please help us determine consensus on this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:53, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Berwick Page is His Own Self Published Autobiography Verbatim

His Self Published Autobiography Verbatim — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ebcidic (talk • contribs) 22:08, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Major press re Berwick is from Vice News

[repetition removed]

I am not wasting my time with Wikipedia. Berwick is a clear example of an entry that is being managed as a vanity entry. Any revision to fact will be revised to reflect self published aggrandizement. A cursory search on this fellow revealed the Vice article which is the only thing worthy of inclusion here... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ebcidic (talk • contribs) 23:18, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please, start reading WP:RS to see what are considered reliable sources. And especially BLPs have to be properly sourced and neutral in style and tone. The Banner talk 00:16, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Page protection

I've added full protection following a request on RfPP. I've also reverted to the version before the recent edits, though that version is also problematic, so I've removed some sources. The article should probably be taken back to a stub and rebuilt. Sarah (talk) 04:21, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sarah, can you please remove this from mainspace? "He subsequently was pushed out of the project by its founders.[3]" It is cited to Berwick, but makes claims about others, and thus is not proper WP:ABOUTSELF stuff. Also, if you feel like helping rebuild the article, I believe it is pretty close to stub-length at them moment.  ;-)     Thanks. 75.108.94.227 (talk) 13:54, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Sarah (talk) 21:47, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Gracias. I'll try to get some wiki-neutral replacement-prose available "soon" (per WP:NORUSH). 75.108.94.227 (talk) 03:20, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note that I've nominated the article for deletion because I didn't know what else to do with it, so if you're going to add neutral content, and if you have no involvement (no conflict of interest), you might want to make that known at the deletion discussion. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jeff Berwick (2nd nomination). Sarah (talk) 03:30, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not COI-encumbered on this guy, though of course, like most people I have opinions on investing and politics and such. (I keep them out of mainspace. ;-)     Anyways, I've commented at AfD, and if enough people are willing to watchlist, that might help assuage the concerns of Grockeds, which I somewhat share: if the result is bangkeep, this *is* gonna be a contentious article long-term, and has in the past been a puff-piece and hit-piece, so although I think it passes WP:42 easily, it needs some disinterested watchers. 75.108.94.227 (talk) 14:20, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Fact on Jeff Berwick as document in major news publications or : marketing through omission.

The revisions you have made to Jeff Berwick have resulted in an article which is "non-factual" and untrue.

"In 2013, Berwick became the most successful promoter of John Cobin's Galt's Gulch Chile project,[1] a libertarian enclave in the Curacaví region of Chile." <-this is entirely out of context! He raised money and investors revert. This reads as a success on his part.

This was documented in the previous edit.. $10,000,000 was raised by Berwick for a project with costs of $1,500,000, and the product was not delivered

Source Vice News -- http://www.vice.com/read/atlas-mugged-922-v21n10
Salon Magazine

So in fact he raised money revert as documented by a major news source The solution is delete the wrong information or report the true information

In 2013, Berwick announced his plans to co-found the world's first Bitcoin automated teller machine (ATM).[2] He subsequently was pushed out of the project by its founders.[3]

This was also explained in the previous edit
Berwick was on CNBC with that announcement timed to the Cypress financial and banking crisis
One month later Berwick abandoned that announcement
A major news source Business Insider - did a series of articles which spoke to the lack of credibility

At best this is opportunism for publicity.

The solution here is to print the story as exposed in major news outlets or delete because it does not meet BLP standards.

Pay for citizenship revert

We have two articles One from German the other from Paraguay in which this enterprise was shut down for revert.

"Please make the proper determination;

1) Do you want articles to speak to fact?
2) Do you want blatantly false articles? because you cannot echo what major news outlets identified as fact
3) Does the article need to be in Wikipeida "

TRUTH AND THE OVERVIEW OF THE CRITICAL TALKING POINTS ARE BOTH OMITTED OR AVOIDED as reported by credible media outlets

Ebcidic (talk) 04:59, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed some bits ("struck" portions) from the comment above, apologies to User:ebcidic for modifying their words. But please, this is not a forum, for discussion about what is true, and what is false. This is a place to discuss what the sources say -- preferably using brief exact attributed quotations from those WP:SOURCES -- and making concrete suggestions for how to improve the article. Wikipedia articles should neither be over-positive, nor over-negative. They should neutrally report a summarized version, in a formal encyclopedic neutral tone, of what the wiki-reliable sources say. No more, no less. Agree that the current version of the article fails to do so. Hollering won't fix that. Instead, please help rewrite the problematic sentences, so as to fully reflect what the sources actually say. Try not to draw any conclusions, even when they are logical conclusions to draw; see WP:SYNTH, wikipedia should simply reflect what the sources say, and let the readership draw their own conclusions. 75.108.94.227 (talk) 14:50, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

WP:SOURCES

  • founder/CEO of Stockhouse.com 1994-2002or2006 in Canada (financials website)
  • wiki-noteworthy factoid, if it can be WP:V in some WP:RS, "...Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year prize in 1999..." [2]
  • founder/Editor-in-Chief of DollarVigilante.com circa 2002 (freemium investor-slash-libertarian newsletter -- best known in the WP:RS due to the link to the Chile real estate project gone bad, however)
  • bitcoin investor (see e.g. wired.com ref)
  • mutually-supporting-WP:ABOUTSELF of 2015, "...for the riding of Vancouver Centre..." (aka House of Commons). "...regularly featured in the media including CNBC, Bloomberg, Fox Business, CBC Radio..." [3][4]

75.108.94.227 (talk) 19:03, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What I see as core points with support

prolly-WP:RS vice.com , Daniel Stuckey (April 3, 2013). "Jeff Berwick, the Founder of Bitcoin ATM, Says His Machine Is the Real Deal".

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100609853 - repeat of the same
http://www.businessinsider.com/bogus-cyprus-atm-story-2013-3
http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/a-working-bitcoin-atm-is-in-san-diego-but-its-most-vocal-backer-is-gone

prolly-WP:RS vice.com, Harry Cheadle (September 22, 2014). "Atlas Mugged: How a Libertarian Paradise in Chile Fell Apart"

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/freedom-and-liberty-not-enough-to-save-galts-gulch-chile-libertarian-community-from-bureaucracy-and-internal-dissent <-chronology and Berwick takes responsibility "It is my fault"

Ebcidic (talk) 20:29, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Ebcidic, thanks for not using the ALLCAPS style.  :-)     And yes, currently the sources we have, the ones I found and the CNBC one you added and such, are not being (properly) reflected in the body-prose of the article. Which is [[WP:UNDUE], and ought to be fixed. Usually we could just be WP:BOLD and mess with it ourselves, but as it is currently locked at the WP:WRONGVERSION, the correct procedure is to hash out some specific changes here on the article-talkpage, and then ping an admin to ask for de-protection, or to ask that they make an edit which has consensus. Will open a new section or three, about suggested changes. 75.108.94.227 (talk) 13:42, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sentence about the real estate in Chile

Please change this:

  • In 2013, Berwick became the most successful promoter of John Cobin's Galt's Gulch Chile project,[1] a libertarian enclave in the Curacaví region of Chile.

References

  1. ^ Steven Bodzin (March–April 2014). "Libertarians Plan to Sit Out the Coming Collapse of America…in Chile". MotherJones.

To this:

  • (( make rewrite-suggestions below, neutral boring just-the-facts non-promotional non-critical let-the-reader-make-up-their-own-mind-about-it sentence, fully 100% backed up explicitly by what the WP:SOURCES actually say. ))

So what should this sentence really say? 75.108.94.227 (talk) 13:42, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sentence about the bitcoin ATMs

Please change this:

References

  1. ^ Maureen Farrell (April 4, 2013). "Bitcoin ATMs coming soon". CNN Money.
  2. ^ Jeff Berwick. "My Official Withdrawal From The Bitcoin ATM Project". The Dollar Vigilante.

To this:

  • (( make rewrite-suggestions below, neutral boring just-the-facts non-promotional non-critical let-the-reader-make-up-their-own-mind-about-it sentence, fully 100% backed up explicitly by what the WP:SOURCES actually say. ))

So what should these sentences really say? I note that the sentence about 'pushed-out-by-the-founders' is using WP:ABOUTSELF cite, to make a definitely-not-aboutself claim, and should prolly be yanked per [better source needed]. 75.108.94.227 (talk) 13:42, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Insertion of additional sentences

Any suggestions for insertions of new sentences about different subjects, than the bitcoin ATM, and the real estate in Chile? Do we have any sources for stockhouse.com , or for thedollarvigilante.com , that make them WP:NOTEWORTHY? 75.108.94.227 (talk) 13:42, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ethical dilemma

Dollar Vigilante should not be used as a source since it is his own Wikipedia:SELFPUB

Ethical dilemma

There is an complex ethical dilemma in regards to this wikipedia entry This is not a BLP issue Wikipedia:Crying_"BLP!"

There are three major projects

1) Bitcoin ATM 2) Galt Gulch's Chile 3) Pay for play, passport expediting service

Each of these talking points have a corresponding controversy.

1) Bitcoin ATM } 2) Galt's Gulch } The most neutral thing that can be said here is that these projects "did not come to fruition as envisioned"

3) Pay for play, passport expert service

This could be covered by original research, but this is precluded

Customers utilizing courier companies who may call themselves "passport expeditors" do not receive their passport any faster than those applying directly at a passport agency.Original Research

Or it can be handled by his own admission that this service does not deliver, but that is both scathing and primary source

A Solution is needed here because balance cannot be found, deletion suggested

Wikipedia:Deletion_policy#BIODEL — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grockeds (talk • contribs) 06:48, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Here is my attempt to NPOV that meet BOP guidelines

Jeff Berwick (born Jeffrey David Berwick, November 24, 1970) is a Canadian entrepreneur, libertarian and anarcho-capitalist activist.

I don't think he is a Canadian entrepreneur although he may be a Canadian

In 2013, Berwick became the most successful promoter of John Cobin's Galt's Gulch Chile project,[1] a libertarian enclave in the Curacaví region of Chile.

the most successful promoter - puffery

That year Berwick announced his plans to co-found the world's first Bitcoin automated teller machine (ATM).[2]

withdrawal from that project. An announcement may not be notable in and of itself.

Here it goes;

Jeff Berwick (born Jeffrey David Berwick, November 24, 1970) is a entrepreneur, libertarian and anarcho-capitalist activist.

Between 2012 and 2013 Berwick actively raised money for "John Cobin's Gulch Chile Project," which was envisioned as a libertarian enclave in the Chile. The project did not come to fruition as envisioned and thus has been mired in a business dispute. http://www.vice.com/read/atlas-mugged-922-v21n10Grockeds (talk) 14:37, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Something Serious is Broken Here

The Wikipedia process (and the ability to market oneself prolifically on the internet without accountability; seems to be preventing the Berwick article from;

1) Representing any kind of truth or balance; as to tell the truth with balance would result in a negative BLP 2) Getting deleted (If, because of BLP and an aversion for lawsuits on the part of Wikipeida, you cannot say anything good; don't say it)

A real affront here is that a "primary source" whereby the individual himself admits wrongdoing and fraud has less/no standing on Wikipedia than "secondary sources" which are blatantly incorrect or historically-contextually incomplete (such as announcement by Berwick getting echoed by a secondary source publication that then fails later on, results in a business dispute, or has no follow on).

To provide context, You cannot counter the secondary source with a negative result because that would be against BLP. So basically, and the dilemma is, the truth cannot be found through sourcing or refinement.

This is not just mind boggling but a total failure of critical thinking, objectivity, reason, and process. This kind of failure spans Wikipeida and goes unnoticed by the people that use it. Perhaps we would find that a Wikipeida Veracity Score would be near zero would anyone care to measure it.Kitatom (talk) 20:13, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hey Kitatom. I understand your frustration. I think you find the page to be misleading or incomplete. Take a look at this page to see what sort of sources are accepted on Wikipedia: WP:V. Otherwise if you have specific issues with the page please let me know and I can try help you add them to the page. FuriouslySerene (talk) 20:55, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks mate.. at present it is better than it was. I see this as a problem with Wikipeida not Berwick. Kitatom (talk) 20:57, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I added in a source that questioned his claim about the ATM. It's true that his original announcement was covered in the press, but his subsequent possible failure to follow through was not (from what I can tell). Unfortunately that's a problem with the media, not wikipedia. You can't add unsourced content here, because otherwise anyone could add anything they wanted to any article. Perhaps you can try digging up a reliable source that shows the plans fell through and I can add it for you? I'm sure we can fix this article if you think there are problems. But please post here before you do more editing. FuriouslySerene (talk) 21:02, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I guess you consider WP:RS a problem? The Banner talk 21:40, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

For the reliability of the discussions above...

... see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Ebcidic. The Banner talk 14:56, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

...and the now archived SPI here --  Kethrus |talk to me  15:22, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jeff_Berwick&oldid=688533901"