Talk:Religion in Albania

70/30 Propaganda

Ploutarchos, why do you keep putting that 70% of Albanians are Muslims? That is completely wrong and unbased. Even the CIA source mentions that that information is just an estimate, because there is no official data on the matter. The truth is that the majority of Albanians in Albania are not affiliated with any religion, since that is how they were all raised during communism. Obviously the real latest official data dates from back in 1967 when we OFFICIALLY were proclaimed the first Atheist country in the world. So yeah, if you need to have official data, we being Atheists is the latest one. (read the second paragraph here: http://www.britannica.com/ebi/article-196152). The is absolutely no official data after that. Calling us Muslims just because you need to include us in a religious group is offensive. - David

Wasn't Cuba also atheist for a long time (I realize it definitely became officially secular in the 90s but I thought it was atheist before that) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.82.227.246 (talk) 03:52, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

All reliable sources say just under 70% of Albania is Muslim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.132.133.60 (talk) 15:04, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay the CIA factbook gives an estimate on the religious affiliation of the Albanians(and states that it is an estimate). So where does this statement come from? "The majority of Albanians today are either Atheists or Agnostics". Isn't some proof required to back it up. The links provided do not give any proof. And 40% is not majority! What information did they use? Who did they survey? That would be like me visiting a Muslim area in Paris and coming up with a theory that all the French are Muslim? Does this make sense? No! If the people surrounding you are atheist, then say that, back up your evidence.

In addition to this what is meant by Albanian. Citizens of Albania? or the national group Albanian? (Honesty 23:22, 1 July 2007 (UTC))

i suggest you all look at the well respected European Values Survey of 2002 available online at http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/ this gives a survey figure that 87% of Albanians considered themselves to be a memember of a religion and of this 87% 66,9% were Muslim, 20.8% Orthodox, 10.1% Catholic. this survey set worship attedandance at 29.4% monthly. note though that most surveys over estimate actual attendance. 217.44.159.173 (talk) 12:37, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

you just cannot start of by saying that the majority are agnostics... many sites and books state that albania, along with bosnia and turkey are moslem countries... i think that this article needs some fixing.. and albanianism?? what is it?? please define.. do you know what agnostics even means??? it means that people do not at all practice religion at all... albania might be a country where religion is less pronounced ... that doesn't mean that it is agnostic.... this article defenitely needs to be fixed by a albania specialist. eg someone who lives there. Canadian (talk) 03:28, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I am Albanian, who lives in Albania and added a very good source of information, Gallup, which says that in 2010 61% of Albanians were non-religious, meaning that they were atheists, agnostics or just not interested at all in any religion. Living for all my life in Albania and being an Albanian, I would say that this figure is higher, probably up to 70% or 80%. If you just visit any religious edifice in Albania, like mosque, church or turbe, and you will see that the number of people participating in the religious ceremonies can be counties with the fingers of your right hand. (Edvin (talk) 23:04, 2 January 2012 (UTC))

Take it easy, you're not the first to understand you've been lied to about Albania being a Muslim country. Misinformation has been going on for whole decades. Non-Albanians find it difficult to believe at first, and can't get used to the fact that religion was undesired for us, and as soon as we got independent we purged them. Come to terms with it. You as non-Albanians can't go on forever naming and tagging us according to your preconceptions. You can't call me or the guy next to me a Catholic or a Muslim because someone of my and his grand-grandfathers may have been such. Religion is not a genetic trait. Face reality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.249.202 (talk) 10:48, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I live in Albania, religion in Albania is not important and I tell you that in Albania there's never been an official statistic or study to show thhe percentage of the religions in the country, but I'm sure that the truth is that Islam in Albania is less than 50% and that a lot of people have 2 religions such as me.(I was born half Orthodox and half Muslim but I identify myself as an atheist because I'm indifferent if there exists something.)But for one thing I'm sure and the article is right more than 50% of the people are Atheists or Agnostics, personally I don't know anyone who believes in God and especially the young people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.250.130 (talk) 16:08, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I completely agree with you. This article is supposed to give a feel as to what religious life is like in Albania. When you quote these Christian/Islamics sources they are very misleading. Almost all Albanians in here agree the country is mostly agnostic (i.e. unsure of god/ believe in a supernatural power but are irreligious). You must make a distinction between very religious people and the "religious" Albanians whom are mostly secular. See my link at the bottom of Talk that shows out of the Islamic countries that this Pew group gathered data from, Albanians are the lowest in religion being very important in their lives, only at 15%. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.96.211 (talk) 19:46, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Merger Proposal

The Religion in Albania page needs to be filled out quite a bit, to be sure. Furthermore, as has been mentioned on the Talk:Islam in Albania page, the article is more about religion in general than about Islam. --Rschmertz 04:34, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, this article should be merged with "religion in Albania" --Noah30 18:46, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

No, Islam in Albania is part of the series of Islam by country. It can't be merged with Religion in Albania. 24.166.181.95 17:30, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Whoops, I reverted before noticing your comment, so please disregard my change summary. Still, you should not delete these proposals so hastily. I recognize your point, but the existence of a series does not override all other concerns, IMHO. --Rschmertz 21:05, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed this article is very weak. I will try soon to work on this article, and use my work on my website TheAlbanians.com

I do not have enough time right now but when i have some fre time I will come back to revise this page.Albanians do not have one official religion. - VasilGjika

Christianity

Article says:

Christianity was imposed in urban centers in the region of Albania during Roman rule by the middle of the 1st century AD.

That's just plain impossible. Christianity was a minority religion in the period c. 50 CE, with no official recognition. There is no way it was "imposed in urban centers" in the middle of the 1st century. About three centuries later (don't know exact figure), the claim would be true though. Going to remove the reference to 1st century. --SJK (talk) 10:31, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Antiquity

Most of churches where albanians live , are build on the Ruins of more older churches or Castles , so they date from 100 A.D.when cristianity spread to Illyrians from Saint Pal . Following the many rage conquerors and bloody wars , some of the Albanian churches and other cultural and defence buildings (called in Albanian-"Kulla") ... were destroyed . Still Albanians arrived to save some of them , and today they are a big cultural value . But, some of these buildings today are used for political manipulation , for example Monastery of Deqan , which the serb entitie pretends to claim , without dignity , and use for political manners, but the truth that everyone knows is that , the Monastery of Decan was build time ago , before the slavic "big raid" in Balkan Peninsula , in the centuries 7 - 8 A.D, Monastery of Deqan was build by Albanians , and still there are proofs of Albanian prezence(paintings in the monastery with men wearing the white albanian hat called plisi), which the Serbs keep in top secret , where rare people can visit it , because of the Serbs pretend that it's a matter of Security , and highly guarded by KFOR troops , which is not neccessary , cause in Kosova the situation is clear and freedom is for all . —Preceding unsigned comment added by ValdrinMaliqi (talk • contribs) 18:40, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Childish

Could you stop this childish situation reverting edits of each other. This is talk page, and everybody has the right to speak.balkanian (talk) 18:10, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

NPOV

I see that some the numbers are not being presented correctly, therefore this article does not present dhe religous reality in Albania. I hope someone can contribute to make this article neutral.

What is this? 70% Atheism? Is that a joke? Islam is the domintating religion in Albania and the man who has wrote this shitt on wikipedia needs to be shott down. Islam in Albania are about making 60-70% of the population. I live in Albania and the man who wrote this must be the dumbest one I have seen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Albaneren (talk • contribs) 15:19, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I live in Albania too, and it's not true that 70% of the population is Islamic because Albania has no official statistics on the religious issue and in Albania there are a lot of people that are half christians and half Islamics( me too). And Atheism is not a religion it's about you, do you believe in god or not... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.250.130 (talk) 16:01, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I live in Albania too and i strongly believe that religion in Albania is only culturally inportant (e.g holydays, traditions, etc). I agree with the figure 70% atheists. Religion does not play an important role in Albanian life or at least i never experienced it. When you ask many people if they believe in God or not, very often thay will reply that thay do not trust religious institutions but they are positive about the existence of a supernatural being or force. The rest, including me, will give a plain answer that God does not exist. ```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.78.69.234 (talk) 22:13, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

How can Islam be 70% of the population when 71% of Albanians in Albania are not religious and do not follow any religion (atheists. agnostic, pagan)? Maybe it 70% of the 39%, meaning that it is 27.3% of the population. (Edvin (talk) 21:12, 5 January 2012 (UTC))

"Propaganda and Misinformation"

This whole section is very POV, there is one citation that is taken out of context. "Perpetuating misinformation"? I'm going to rename the section "misconceptions" and try to make it more NPOV. Thoughts? Αεκος (talk) 20:42, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Unreliable

This article seems extremly unreliable, and i mean the difference between 25% religious and 95% religious. The important thing is the self reported religious affiliation of the albanian people, isn't this data available from a recent official census or some recent polling from a credible institution at least ?

Last official data are those of 90% atheists. Some go further, they take the last official data of 2 centuries ago when 101% of Albanians were religious... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.91.115.229 (talk) 14:44, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Data

79.9% Muyslim is not correct because it is talking only for muslim, and do not have the datas about ather religions. And you can not put and the top that information, but say that there are 4 religions, and mos of albanians do not practice any religions. So, http://www.scribd.com/doc/15738681/Feja-ne-Shqiperi1,

if you see, 10% practice islam, but not 79.9%. --Albopedian (talk) 16:50, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I moved the statistic further down and wrote a new lead paragraph introducing the major religions in the country and mentioning that many are nonreligious. --Local hero ^talk 16:55, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you! I think that it's better put the mos neutral statistics, and, in the middle of 10% and 79% to put 38% (of the sources that i linked) and catholics 13% (according to the albanian catholic church). 700.000 are orthodox (see Albanian Orthodox Church, so 22%, and the other are atheists or without religion. It's better than spreading disinformation. Thank you!--Albopedian (talk) 17:04, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

The source of information for Albania for the Pew Research Center study is UNICEF's 2005 MICS3 survey (zipped PDF). One of the tables in that study says that 79.9 % of heads of households are Muslim and the remaining 20.1 % are Orthodox/Catholic/Other. Svick (talk) 17:31, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I did some more research and the CIA factbook gives "Muslim 70%, Albanian Orthodox 20%, Roman Catholic 10%", with a note that this is only an estimate. Operation World gives: Christian – 1,291,452 adherents (41.48 %); Muslim – 1,207,701 adherents (38.79 %); non-Religious/other – 608,365 adherents (19.54 %) and also says "Over 50% of the population is culturally Muslim, but superstition and folk Islam are strong." Maybe this is where the confusion comes from – cultural vs. actual Muslims. Svick (talk) 17:55, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Religious superstition, and It's not possible that 50% of the population is "culturaly muslim", because they had 45 years of state atheism. http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2009/127295.htm This is for the first "citation needed". If anyone visits Albania, his people and state do not know what is religion. How you see, it's impossible that 100% of population (according to CIA) to be religious. It's not funny. This data cames from pre-WWII time, and after there is the state atheism.

This is for the citation needed about religious harmony: http://www.un.org/ga/64/generaldebate/pdf/AL_en.pdf --Albopedian (talk) 20:46, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

We also can not call Muslim person that never have seen e mosque in their life (like me). Actual muslims, if the 60-75% of population do not practice any religion, maybe 10%-15% practice islam, and other maybe are christians. And in ALbania there are a lot of people that have parents of different religions, but doi not practice anyone, so, of wich group is he part? There are a confusion, confusiong and disinformating people about religion in Albania. So, i think that's better to put the data of Operation World, and ad that Albania is a secular country with a non practising majority. --Albopedian (talk) 20:55, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not understanding why: - Local hero deletes "Albania do not have official statistics _ Put in all pages about albania, 79,9% are muslims (bektashi or sunni, practising or not???) and doesn't talk about other religions? Is it possibile to be 100% religious? Are you trolling or what? 79,9% is not neutral, and also 9% muslim is not neutral, why do you not let it at 38%?? Can I also add that, according to another statistics, 70% of them are atheists?--Albopedian (talk) 16:28, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Why do you keep deleting a reliable, recent source about the precentage of Muslims in Albania on every single page relating to Albania and religion? It is possible to be 100% religious, although I never said that was the case in Albania. 79.9% is completely neutral, done by the Pew Research Center. Just because you don't think the statistic doesn't support your idea of religion in Albania and that it isn't neutral, doesn't mean it should be removed. By all means add a source that says that 70% are atheists; I never deleted a single referenced fact you've ever put in. I ask that you do the same. --Local hero ^talk 16:52, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

The most neutral way to do this is to add several statistics supporting several positions on the figures for religious adherence in Albania. So if you have a reference suggesting that 70% are atheist then add it, but don't remove other sourced information that suggests something else because there is no certain statistic regarding this topic. --Local hero ^talk 18:42, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I requested the actual data from the MICS3 study of Albania from 2005 (that seems to be the source of data for the Pew Research Center study). The figures in the study report are per household and are weighted (I'm no statistician and I'm not sure what exactly that means, but I guess it could be that the data are weighted by the count of members for that household). Here are the raw data:

Religion	Number of households	Percentage
Muslim	4104	79.7
Orthodox	621	12.1
Catholic	369	7.2
Bectashi	46	0.9
Other	4	0.1
No religion	6	0.1

Religion	Number of household members	Percentage
Muslim	12457	80.4
Orthodox	1725	11.1
Catholic	1119	7.2
Bectashi	148	1.0
Other	12	0.1
No religion	25	0.2
DK	1	0.0

Svick (talk) 21:41, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

To put an end to this discussion, here you have the data:

Is religion an important part of your daily life?

country	yes	no	Don't know/Refused
Albania	39%	58%	3&
Sweden	17%	82%	1%
Estonia	17%	78%	6%

http://www.gallup.com/poll/128210/Gallup-Global-Reports.aspx (Edvin (talk) 21:20, 5 January 2012 (UTC))

This does not end the discussion. The statistics on Religion in Albania are too varied to call any single source the correct one until a reliable national census occurs. --Local hero ^talk 14:52, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

In few months we will have the data from the national census in Albania, which was done during October 2011. I am pretty sure that the percentage of non-religious Albanians would be even greater than what Gallup found (Edvin (talk) 19:00, 6 January 2012 (UTC))

Gallup only asked if religion is an important part of their daily lives. They didn't ask if the respondents were Muslim or not. --Local hero ^talk 23:02, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

How can a person who doesn't follow any religious practices and doesn't find religion important be Muslim or Catholic? (Edvin (talk) 23:13, 6 January 2012 (UTC))

It does not say that those people do not follow any religious practices. It just says that religion is not an important part of their daily lives. Many of those people may still consider themselves Muslims even if they do not pray towards Mecca five times per day. --Local hero ^talk 17:09, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Is Albania muslim,christian or atheist country?

i invite people to write what they think on this matter... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shanticm (talk • contribs) 21:59, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Albania does not have any state religion, Albania is secular. But most of the inhabitants, about 70 - 80 % are/have Muslim origin. --NOAH (talk) 09:01, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

That's correct, however Muslim origin doesn't mean Muslim affiliation. Entered data from Albanian govt, dated 2007.--Sulmues ^(talk) 10:38, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Albania is not a religious country, and in fact it is the 13th least religious country in the world according to the Global Survey conducted by Gallup in 2010. Gallup is sometimes used as the best credible source, due to its professional surveys it conducts. According to this survey, religion plays a role only to 39% of Albanians, and puts Albania in the list of the 14 least religious countries in the world, where Estonia is the first, and Albania the thirteenth least religious country in the world. You can see the data Gallup Global Reports 2010. Just click on religion and go to the bottom of the list of countries. (Edvin (talk) 13:43, 2 January 2012 (UTC))

Protestants

There ought to be a section on Albanian Protestants, considering their importance in the development of the Albanian printing and alphabet and education. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.207.42.7 (talk) 16:51, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

"and hundreds of thousands of former Muslims have converted to Orthodox Christianity, as they have migrated to Greece." - This has no source and from my understanding, is completly untrue. I'm guessing a Christian/Bias propogandist's been editing this article?

Can someone also edit the Religious demography section; this is the recent most reliable demographics -

A recent Pew Research Center demographic study put the percentage of Muslims in Albania at 79.9%.[1]

Source - ^ Miller, Tracy, ed. (October 2009) (PDF), Mapping the Global Muslim Population: A Report on the Size and Distribution of the World’s Muslim Population, Pew Research Center, retrieved 2009-10-08

http://pewforum.org/newassets/images/reports/Muslimpopulation/Muslimpopulation.pdf

Bektashis

I see here that Bektashis are put together with Muslims in this article. While bektashis are related to Islam, in Albania they are mostly considered as a separate religion, and being a Bektashi doesn't automatically mean that you are a Muslim, or vice-versa. It is like Orthodox are considered different from Catholics. (Edvin (talk) 22:58, 2 January 2012 (UTC))

Albanian pagan traditions

It seems that this paragraph on religion in Albania is bothering the user Athenean: "Religion has always been taken easily by Albanians. The actual traditional religions (Christianity and Islam) were religions imported and most of the time imposed by the numerous occupying forces in Albania. Thus, most of the Albanians were never truly religious in the traditional meaning of the word. Even nowadays, among people who claim to follow any of the four major religions in Albania, you can see a mixture of various religious traditions and pagan traditions coming from time before Christianity."

Being an Albanian and growing up and living there, I know better our pagan traditions which we perform every year, than a Greek who seems to not know so much about Albania. I invite other Albanians here in Wikipedia to back up my post.

(Edvin (talk) 18:59, 5 January 2012 (UTC))

Your additions are completely unsourced. Sorry, but that's not how do things around here. You can't just add whatever you want because you're from Albania. Everything needs to be sourced, especially claims like these. Athenean (talk) 19:02, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I am putting more sources, it is just that it is harder to find sources on English on this.

(Edvin (talk) 20:13, 5 January 2012 (UTC))

Problem is, none of the sources you have added are reliable. Please see WP:RS for how a reliable source is defined in wikipedia. The sources you have added are self-published websites, where whoever owns the website can write whatever they want. Some with a a clear nationalist agenda (e.g. www.ancientillyrians.com). Also, Edwin Jacques is not a historian and is not considered a reliable source. You need to use books like these [1], that's what reliable sources are. John Wilkes is a professor of ancient history. Anyway, I left the Gallup poll results in the article, I think that is sufficient. I don't know why you want to keep repeating over and over in the lede how non-religious Albanians are, once is enough. Athenean (talk) 22:22, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Because it is clear that you have an ultranationalistic Greek agenda and keep mingling in articles related to Albania. Why so a Greek is so much interested to portray Albanians as fanatic-religious people? I am not messing up articles about your beloved Greece. (Edvin (talk) 22:31, 6 January 2012 (UTC))

Stop insulting. I didn't insult you, did I? If you continue insulting I will report you and you will be banned. I am not interested in portraying Albanians as fanatics, I only removed one sentence that was sourced to unreliable sources, and one that was unsourced. Websites, whether they are Albanian, English or Greek, are not reliable sources. Try to understand that. Athenean (talk) 22:35, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I also reported you for violation and deleting sources, which are also used in so many other articles. By the way, some of the sources which for you are not reliable, surprisingly were used for the article about Greek history. I guess that to be fair, given that you deleted mine, you should also delete those on the article about Greece and its history. And also on scores of other pages where I found the same sources I used. Who is being unfair here? And by the way, about the percentage of Greeks in Albania, you cite a Greek book, which I and the others cannot read. So i request that it should be deleted, and no percentage should be put there until the results of the census come up in few months. Sincerely, (Edvin (talk) 23:18, 6 January 2012 (UTC))

Removing unreliable sources is not a "violation". You seem to have trouble understanding what a reliable source is. So Encyclopedia Britannica is not a reliable source, but Kristo Dako is? Come on now. There are unreliable sources used everywhere in wikipedia unfortunately. I cannot remove all of them, I can only remove the ones that I notice. Btw, the book on the percentages in Albania is not Greek, it's author is Ian Jeffries. Does that sound Greek to you? Athenean (talk) 23:24, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

You were the one removing my Britannica citation. So, Ian is above all international organizations, and the Albanian statistics which is the only one legally having the right to provide data? (Edvin (talk) 23:42, 6 January 2012 (UTC))

Ian Jeffries is neutral. Are the Albanian government statistics neutral? Athenean (talk) 23:44, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Ian Jeffries is not quoted anywhere, and there is no reliable information that he is the sole and absolute source on statistics in Albania. I did not see him doing any national survey in Albania. He is not an international authority who has the last word in the matter. And by the way, I can not understand anything in that citation because it is in Greek. I am not sure that excerpt belongs to that book. It needs to be verified. (Edvin (talk) 10:30, 7 January 2012 (UTC))

The excerpt on pagan traditions was removed on the grounds that I only brought only citations from websites. Ok, then i will bring a citation from Aleksander Stipcevic, a famous Yugoslav and Croatian academic and archaeologist. You can see it here. Now, don't tell me that books from academics are not a source accepted by Wikipedia. (Edvin (talk) 16:07, 7 January 2012 (UTC))

Sure, but we have to be precise on what academics claim. In this Stipcevic claims something completely diferrent: [[2]] "It is known that many of these symbols, for example, the serpent, the spiral (also believed to be a schematic presentation of the serpent), the concentric circle, swastika, etc., existed...". It seems obvious that this is completely irrelevant in an article titled 'Religion in Albania'.Alexikoua (talk) 17:40, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

By the way the rest of the specific paragraph (1st of ancient history) is irrelevant with the article, the 'religion of the Illyrians' is geographically and historically diferrent with the 'religion in Albania'. This is also in consistency with all similar articles (typical example Religion in France, Religion in Russia).Alexikoua (talk) 21:37, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Very good observation Alexikua. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:19, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

lede second section

The second section of the lede sounds too informal. IRWolfie- (talk) 21:27, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Informal is not the right word. Biased is more appropriate expression. Just read below source (especially pages 34-91) and it will be clear why.

• Kressing, Frank (2002), Albania--a country in transition : aspects of changing identities in a South-East European country (PDF), Baden-Baden: Nomos, ISBN 9783789076701, OCLC 50737195 {{citation}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help); More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:40, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Chart

Based on the religiousfreedom web site IP editor added the chart with percents which are disputed. I believe it is violation of WP:NPOV and remove it from the article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:20, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

With another edit the same IP editor added chart with disputed percents based on the 2001 tertiary source which contains outdated figures. It is again violation of WP:NPOV and should be removed from the article. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:51, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't agree, Antidiskriminator!!! I mean, it's OXFORD, for god's sake, so it can't be the violation of WP:NPOV. I know all Wikipedia's rules. And, stop discriminating. My native language is also Serbian, so I can say you should totally change your username. Not trying to be rude, though. Guess we'll have to seek dispute resolution, or you should type more convincing explanation. So, do you have WP:CON on that or sources that are more WP:RS. 178.223.199.235 (talk) 16:12, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

I also disagree with inclusion of the chart since these figures vary greatly by source. Why, for example, should we the World Christian Encyclopedia as opposed to the Pew Research Center as the source? --Local hero ^talk 22:19, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

The WCE is published by the Oxford University Press i.e. RS, the Pew Research Center on the other hand is a think tank that conducted a poll. If you think that OUP isn't RS please take it to RSN, not to mention that he didn't remove the PRC poll.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 12:19, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

The problem is not the reliability of the Oxford University Press, it is that we present it as the best and most accurate source out there by making it the source behind this chart. Until a reliable census is conducted, I don't think we can say that, without doubt, there is one source that is most correct. --Local hero ^talk 14:12, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

I'll have to support the inclusion of the chart since, not only that sources are reliable, it also notes that the informations are disputed and that 70% of Albanias didn't declare their religion, I also could agree with it on the more 'natural' level. I lived in Albania (well, I'm in Serbia righ now) and I can say that these informations are the most appropriate. 178.223.123.111 (talk) 12:47, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Inclusion of the chart with disputed and outdated figures taken from tertiary source just because it was published by OUP is wrong. It is also violation of NPOV and UNDUE. If there are no other arguments presented, besides publisher based ones, this chart should be removed.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:00, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

OUP isn't tertiary source. See World Christian Encyclopedia. It IS a reference work, so it CAN be freely referenced without any problems and CAN be used for bar boxes. Even though it's from 2001, most other Religion in /European state/ articles used the old informations for bar boxes, like Serbia (2002), Croatia (2001), Bosnia (2001), Scotland (2001), Northern Ireland (2001), Wales (2001), Romania (2002), Portugal (2001), Ukraine (2006), Montenegro (2003), Macedonia (2002), Lithuania (2001), Liechtenstein (2002), Georgia (2002), Greece (2001), Estonia (2000), Hungary (2001), Italy (2006), Austria (2005). Should all those be deleted, Antidiskriminator and Local hero? I don't think so. As for the neutral point of view, please don't say that the Oxford favorizes Christianity and irreligion, since it's not so. I don't know what other argument do you need, but even the census won't help, because the bar box with 70% going to undeclared is... just obsolete. 178.223.123.111 (talk) 14:36, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

OUP is the publisher of encyclopedia which is tertiary source. There are more recent data presented in the article and supported by secondary sources. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:31, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, I have to second that, Antidiskriminator. However, as you said, there are more recent data presented in the article. Are they disturbed/removed/unheeded by the inclusion of bar box? No, they're not. Are there no notes that 70% of population left their relgion undeclared on 2011 census or that the informaitons are disputed? Well, there are. So, in the nature of other Religion in Europe articles, the 'median' result are put in the bar box. See Religion in Sweden. Even though most 'secondary sources' point irreligion up to 85%, the bar box there says only 23% (with notes of course). I'd REALLY like to see what others say, since now, 3 users (2 unregistered) support the bar box and 2 (both registered) don't. In the best faith, 178.223.123.111 (talk) 18:05, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not democracy. This is not voting. What counts are arguments, grounded in wikipedia polices and rules.

Until now arguments for removal of the chart were grounded in the following policies:

1. WP:NPOV, the chart represents only one view, not other significant views supported by secondary sources
2. WP:UNDUE it gives undue weight to one minority view
3. WP:PSTS it is not supported by secondary sources, only by tertiary source
4. WP:COMMONSENSE:
   1. The chart does not present data about religious feelings of all Albanians (they are not presented for 25%).
   2. There are more recent data supported by secondary sources which actually present information about the religious feelings of people in Albania without eluding them.

Until now nobody addressed any of above mentioned issues. Arguments for inclusion of the disputed chart were based on WP:OSE and the name of publisher of tertiary source. I don't think that it is enough. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:24, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, it isn't democracy, but you still need WP:CON. I support the chart. Ceyda 178.223.231.55 (talk) 10:29, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

No. It is you who need WP:CON to add it. Read WP:BRD. You were bold and added the disputed chart, then you were reverted according to the explanation on this talk page. Please remove the disputed chart from the article and discuss this issue rather than edit warring.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:12, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

OK, I reworked the chart to contain 100% reliable, 100% unrevertable informations. Now, which way should the discussion go? My proposal is to end it without any further 'spamming' of the talk page and wait for the census result. Bar box with 70% going to undeclared is non-informational, but it's a must (like 45.2% undeclared in Czechia). 178.223.231.55 (talk) 14:53, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

This is article about religion in Albania. Readers expect to learn something about religious feelings of Albanians when they read the lede of this article. Although you changed this chart it should be removed from this article because it could mislead the readers to believe that many Albanians (maybe even 70%) are not religious. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:01, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Removed the bar box completely, but I assume you understand that, when the complete census results get published, the bar box will have to contain 70% of undeclared. As for people thinking that undeclared means irreligious, it could be close to truth, since there's no reason to 'conceal' your religion other than you being uncomfortable with it (irreligious people being uncomfortable because of the tradition, those who can't 'determine' whether they are religious or not and those wanting to declare themselves as religious or not, but feel they shouldn't do so). Another reason could be persecution (not present today) and belonging to religious sect (highly impossible for 70% of Albanians). See your talk page, Antidiskriminator. Unitl complete census results, 109.92.219.199 (talk) 11:56, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

• The main Greek organisation, OMONIA, and the Greek minority party, PBDNJ, has called for Greeks in Albania to boycott the census?link
• Many Albanian intellectuals, political parties and other organisations have expressed their concern about the political implications of the inclusion of ethnic and religious affiliation in the questionnaire. (same link)
• Warning has now been issued that those declaring a nationality different to that entered in the Albanian state registers (Article 20 (amended) of Law 10442) will face heavy fines. This effectively undermines any freedom of expression regarding ethnic origin and hence the validity of the population census in Albania, which has been awaited for decades.
• Foreign ministry spokesman of Greece said that the representatives of the most important minority groups - the ethnic Greek minority included - have decided to call on their members to abstain, in a show of protest because their right to free self-determination is not being guaranteed. This is proof of serious deficit in confidence toward the Albanian state on behalf of the minorities, which calls for the [Albanian] government’s urgent response.”
• ....

Complete results from 2011 census in Albania will not contain data about religious feelings of the population in Albania. Uninitiated readers of wikipedia would have no benefit from adding the disputed chart to the top of this article.

Taking all above mentioned in consideration I am against inclusion of the disputed chart to this article. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:42, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, yes, sorry!!! I wanted to remove the bar box after I wrote here, but my house experianced power outage and, when it was fixed, the Wikipedia servers were down. Deleted the bar box. Pity for the Albania('s Government) doing what it's doing, but the part of not being able to change the nationality could be because of lots of people 'becoming' Greeks for the benefits. Nevertheless, I have little to no knowledge of post-communist Albanian politics (and even the communist one regarding nationality). If you have anything else to say, feel freely to do so. I'll be checking this page. 109.92.219.199 (talk) 14:51, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Honestly this entire article is a bit of a joke. All the figures are completely distracting and fluctuating. Theres a million statistics all almost completely different from one another. I think the Pew research is unneccesary, as by saying 80 percent of Albanians are muslim is really misleading. Pew recently released an article about muslims again (ill try to find it) that religion to muslims doesnt plays an important part in their life. In Albania religion is just a meaningless label that has been passed down generations, and is not religion in the ordinary sense. Thats not what this article portrays. Also, in that article it says only 2%! of the population attends mosques. 2%!!! When you keep throwing these statistics such as theres this many christians this many muslims etc... is really misleading since a grand proportion of the population is agnostic. Also in the Czech Republic article, the undeclared portion of the census were counted as agnostic/atheist, I dont see why not the same is done with this one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IllusionFinal (talk • contribs) 20:14, 18 August 2012 (UTC) Heres the link to the article: http://www.pewforum.org/Muslim/the-worlds-muslims-unity-and-diversity-2-religious-commitment.aspx#importance . See how in other countries the % of very important religion to life is in the high 90s, while in Albania only 15%, which is the lowest figure there.

Antiquity issues

The first half of the specific section, apart from serious vn issues in the given references is obviously irrelevant with the article itself. To sum up:

• The two main Illyrian cults were the Cult of the Sun and the Cult of the Snake which are still witnessed and practiced in rural regions throughout Albania.[13]vn[14]vn. Why an article under the title 'religion in Albania' should start with some obscure info about the cult of the Illyrians, who in fact were a number of heterogeneous tribes? Anyway both sources can't be verified.
• An organic system of assigning human personifications to natural phenomena was culturally developed and remnants of these appear in everyday Albanian folklore and tradition.[13]vn. Same issue as above.
• In 2005, the Albanian government acknowledged the ancient vernal equinox festival as a national holiday.. Apart from unsourced, the modern organization of festivals is irrelevant with the topic of religion. It might be part of folklore or modern social politics.
• The mythology and religion of the Illyrians is only known through mention of Illyrian deities on Roman Empire period monuments, some with interpretatio Romana. Bingo, this part is sourced and contradicts the introductory part. Thus, this made up cult stuff needs to go. But why is the religion of Illyrians necessary to be part of this article? Does the author 'Wilkes' imply something about the religion in Albania? The Illyrian tribes apart from being heterogenous with eachother didn't live only in present Albania. In fact, geographically, Albania (and not all of it) was a small part of the 'Illyrian homelands'.
• There appears to be no single most prominent Illyrian god and there would have been much variation between individual Illyrian tribes. Bingo, that's sourced but still there is not connection with Albania as stated above.Alexikoua (talk) 14:09, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Agree. The paragraph from Wilkes in particular is out out of place here. Wilkes is writing about the Ilyyrians in general. the passages are not specifically linked to Albania. The material fits in well at Illyrians, but is relatively off-topic here. There are also a lots of low quality sources such as these [3] [4]. I will remove unreliable sources and replace them with cn tags, and place vn tags on those sources that need to be verified. Athenean (talk) 14:18, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Also, to suggest that Albania is described in the Western media as a "Muslim" country (as if that were somehow a "bad" thing) due to Serbian influence of the Western media (when Serbia is among the countries most demonized by the Western media - only Iran and Russia fare worse) is the pinnacle (or rock-bottom rather) of conspiratorial "All our problems are the Serbs fault" type nonsense. Athenean (talk) 14:23, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Apparently you did not read the source that was provided, it never stated that Serbia somehow clandestinely influences Western media. In that source in the very same sentence (that Albania is described as a "Muslim country") also stood that this "was mainly due to Serbian propaganda from the 19th century onwards to create a non-European image for Albanians" so it stood to reason that this should be given a mention. Nevertheless, I deleted that sentence since one of you thought that the sources are not reliable, with which I agree. On an unrelated note I suggest you read and inform yourself on the subject you disparaged as "nonsense". — Epicurus B. ^{(Not my talk page)} 17:36, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

The reason Albania is described as a "Muslim" country in the Western media is because many statistics seem to indicate that the majority of the population is nominally Muslim (never mind if most Albanians are in practice atheist/nonreligious). Not because of 19th century "Serbian propaganda". That is just a feel-good conspiracy theory sourced to an unreliable source. Have a nice day. Athenean (talk) 17:48, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Living in the West, I would say that the view that Albania is described as a "Muslim country" in Western media is just flat-out false. It might have been true ages ago but not now. Most references to Albania in the media make no mention of religion at all, as it isn't deemed relevant. If Albania's given an adjective, "Balkan", "Southeast European", "ex-Communist" and "European" are much more common than "Muslim". The only times that the "Muslim" adjective comes up are when religion is actually the discussion, and then there's usually reference to Albania's reputation for religious tolerance and its tradition of secularism, as well as its Christian minorities. I don't know what you guys read, but whatever it is, its not representative of the Western view of Albania.

As for the inclusion of the ancient religions of Albania, plenty of other Religion in x-country pages do this, for example Sweden. I see no reason why Albania should be treated differently. --Yalens (talk) 17:03, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Pew

That Pew study was about Muslims all over the world and what they thought about x-issues and other stuff. The intention of the study was not to verify the percentage of Muslims in any one of the many countries they interviewed. It is a poll, not a census, and the question they were interested wasn't even the % of Muslims. They're interested in the worldview and opinion on given issues, not the society's demographic particularities. I don't think so much credence should be given to it. especially since, being a polling agency, it mainly interviewed those in the less remote areas- but its precisely the remote I'm not even so sure that Pew would advise to use its data this way, as a quantitative measurement of Albania's population.--Yalens (talk) 21:58, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Revival of ancient religion in Albania

In the last 25 years there has been a revival of the ancient religion of Illyrians in Albania, based on the surviving forms or worshiping the main Illlyrian deities and with the cult of the Sun being central. So far there are around 300-400 Albanians who claim to be part of this revived religion. This should be part of this article as it is a community that cannot be discriminate and its existence denied (Edvin (talk) 14:23, 10 January 2016 (UTC))