Talk:Murder of Jo Cox

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This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:

Speedy keep, June 17, 2016 (second nomination), see discussion.
Keep, June 17, 2016 (first nomination), see discussion.

Requested move 17 June 2016

It has been proposed in this section that Murder of Jo Cox be renamed and moved somewhere else, with the name being decided below.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

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Links: current log

Death of Jo Cox → ? – Reopening given lack of consensus for final title Sceptre ^(talk) 16:51, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Murder of Jo Cox → Death of Jo Cox – Murder is pronounced by a court of law; we will move to the relevant title after verdict if needed. Mootros (talk) 08:01, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That makes sense. "Killing" might be possible though, without implying anything about mens rea. --Money money tickle parsnip (talk) 08:04, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, given that UK sub judice rules apply from arrest (i.e. already), any UK editor should be wary of adding any statement to the effect that she was definitively murdered, if that could prejudice a jury's decision over whether a defendant had the necessary mens rea or not. (However, I still think "killing" is safe to use. I don't exactly imagine we are going to see a trial decided on the issue of whether she died of natural causes...) --Money money tickle parsnip (talk) 08:16, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I'm not sure this is necessary. No allegation is made that any specific person was responsible. AusLondonder (talk) 08:26, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest we keep the article name in line with another noted death of a politician Assassination of Olof Palme (there is also Assassination of Abraham Lincoln) and move this to "Assassination of Jo Cox". To my ears that sounds more encyclopedic and less like a headline in The Sun. I noticed that Anna Lindh's death, also similar to this, is called "Murder" in the article about her, but in that case the perpetrator has been caught and found guilty. w.carter-Talk 08:35, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support Given that the perpetrator has been widely reported as having serious mental issues, it is far from clear that this was a murder, and so calling this a murder is plainly a POV.MrStoofer (talk) 09:02, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support move to Assassination In keeping with Assassination of Spencer Perceval and the many related articles and categories AusLondonder (talk) 09:07, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I thought the correct term for anyone killed while holding political office (usually by someone with political motive) was 'assassination'? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.225.80.111 (talk) 09:50, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Assassination requires also a deliberation to establish that the death was not accidental and that the killing was wilful. Mootros (talk) 09:59, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry but are you implying that this may have been accidental? "Oh oops I accidentally shot a woman and then stabbed her several times when I tripped over a curb" EoRdE6^{(Come Talk to Me!)} 16:27, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Moved Smurrayinchester 10:15, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Let's delude ourselves that this was an "accident" or that it wasn't murder. When someone has their life taken by another person when they are stabbed and shot as they go about their business - that is murder. AusLondonder (talk) 10:37, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Murder has a specific legal definition. Depending on what the police and courts say, it could be manslaughter on grounds of diminished responsibility, for example. Per above, we don't want to risk commenting on a sub judice case. Smurrayinchester 10:48, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support move to “Killing”. I realise that the move to “Death” has already taken place, but we could be more specific, and this doesn't have the problem of implying intent. —ajf (talk) 16:01, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support move to "Assassination": well-documented ([1]) that Mair had links to neo-Nazi groups and, when arrested, shouted neo-Nazi slogans. The idea that the killing wasn't an assassination is frankly ridiculous. Sceptre ^(talk) 16:51, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support a move to "Death of" due to UK Sub judice rules. This is Paul (talk) 16:59, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- The British legal concept of sub judice is only advisory when it comes to an online encyclopaedia hosted in the United States. Sceptre ^(talk) 17:16, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  - Well specifically this applies to English law, and as I've previously been led to understand, anyone from the UK editing this article runs the risk of breaching sub judice rules, and in theory could face prosecution. Under the rules of the English legal system murder isn't defined as such until and unless a jury reaches a verdict of murder. That also applies to many other countries that use English law, though excludes the US. This is Paul (talk) 17:27, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support rename to Murder of Jo Cox or preferably Assassination of Jo Cox. Wikipedia should not be whitewashing this any further. Ribbet32 (talk) 17:36, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support move to "Killing..." "Death" is nondescript, and "murder" is uncertain until the legal process is completed. But, she was killed. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:39, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note: At the main article talk page there is a "Current/recent consensuses" - tag about how to refer to her death and also the perpetrator. Should that perhaps be transcluded here? Or do we have two articles, same subject, two debates? w.carter-Talk 22:43, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Britain First"

The article says "Witnesses had reported that the suspect had screamed "Britain first" as he carried out the attack" and the reference is http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-36550304, this seems inaccurate wording: the reference only say of one witness, not witnesses, and we don't know the identity of the witness so we should add "reportedly" because nobody else could check.--87.7.234.222 (talk) 07:11, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I changed this to the singular, but then found another source citing two witnesses, so I changed it back with a reference. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:34, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Cf. terrorist shooting?

Can somebody explain to me why the 2016 orlando nightclub shooting is described as a terrorist shooting but that isn't even mentioned in this article? I understand the motives of the shooter are not clear, but I think this should be discussed in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.5.149 (talk) 12:06, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

See above. This case is "sub judice" - under investigation - and this means that we need to avoid going beyond the bare facts wherever possible. The article is clear that the suspect has been linked to far-right organizations, but it doesn't make the synthesis that it is therefore a political killing (the CPS have not called the attack "terrorism", although counter-terrorism police are investigating). The Orlando shooting is a bit different - FBI released information very quickly and officially dubbed it a terrorist attack. Smurrayinchester 14:25, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Murder" is a specific judicial pronouncement; "terrorism" is a more generic term that as such would not constitute a verdict in itself, even though the word might come up in a judgement or police statement. Mootros (talk) 16:03, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There are various specific offences that one may commit under the Terrorism Act 2000, however. -- M2Ys4U ^(talk) 18:01, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sub judice

There seems to be some misunderstanding, so to clear it up, sub judice concerns in Britain do not effect the content of an American encyclopaedia. Whilst British editors, such as myself, should exercise caution, there is little reason to delete content that is freely being shared at this very moment in British news media. If the content of the article creates genuine sub judice concerns, then West Yorkshire Police or Crown Court clerks will almost certainly contact the Wikimedia Foundation office. Sceptre ^(talk) 17:30, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That sort of thing isn't unprecedented, something I noted in this essay, which I wrote and researched after finding myself caught up in a shitstorm over an article about a previous legal case some years ago. This is Paul (talk) 17:40, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The history of this article and its discussion pages are worth reading, as some of the editing issues encountered there will no doubt arise here. This is Paul (talk) 17:47, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Without dignifying the call from a British-based editor to openly ignore British law with a response, WP:BLPCRIME does apply to all editors. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 18:03, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Could you tell me what part of BLPCRIME is being breached? Sceptre ^(talk) 18:11, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The paragraph speaks for itself:

A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until proven guilty and convicted by a court of law. For subjects who are not public figures, editors must seriously consider not including material in any article suggesting that the person has committed, or is accused of committing, a crime unless a conviction is secured. Generally, a conviction is secured through court or magisterial proceedings. Allegations, accusations, investigations, and arrests on suspicion of involvement are not a conviction. WP:BLPCRIME applies to individuals who are not covered by WP:WELLKNOWN. If different judicial proceedings result in seemingly contradictory judgments that do not override each other, include all the explanatory information.

Does that help? This is Paul (talk) 18:21, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Killing of Jo Cox"

Wouldn't "Killing of Jo Cox" be a more appropriate title for the article? I can understand why some might hesitate to call this "murder", as no conviction has happened. But is there any doubt that she was killed?VR _talk 22:27, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Is this not covered up ^^ there ^^ ?? 82.36.105.25 (talk) 22:33, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Isolated but targeted

Neutrality and I have been a bit back and forth on this "isolated but targeted" sentence. As requested I'm bringing it here to discuss. My worry is that it doesn't have any real meaning ... that it's just a noise that the police made cos they couldn't think of anything better to say. Yes it was isolated, in that this @rsehole didn't kill 19 other people on the same day, or that his cronies, whoever they are or might be, likewise did not. Yes it was targeted in that it appears the murderer intended to harm or kill Cox, rather than a passing lollipop lady or Cliff Richard. But I honestly, with the best will in the world, do not see how this helps the article. It's unilluminating and borderline stupid, because it's so obvious and adds nothing. If they had said, say "Mrs Cox was shot" or "Mrs Cox has died" then then we probably wouldn't quote that ... because it's true but essentially meaningless/pointless or at last nothing-adding. That's my problem with this sentence. Best wishes 82.36.105.25 (talk) 22:31, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think the meaning is fairly clear -

"isolated"—means that the killing was not part of some wider plot or conspiracy

"targeted"—not a random attack; the assailant went specifically after Cox

Neutrality^talk 22:40, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

... Which neatly summarizes what I said above. Sadly, it still does not render it meaningful or useful in this article. But you seem quite committed to keeping it, and I cannot be bothered to argue further, so jolly good and well done. Best wishes 82.36.105.25 (talk) 22:50, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]