Talk:September 11 attacks

An event mentioned in this article is a September 11 selected anniversary.

Remember that article talk pages are only there to coordinate the article's improvement, not for engaging in discussion for discussion's sake. Please do not use them as a discussion forum.

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Please remember -- this talk page is for discussing the mechanics of the article (what to include, how to include it) only and not a place to discuss the events of 9/11 Sdedeo (tips) 18:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

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The archives of the discussion of the September 11, 2001 attacks article may be found here:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

20

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Removed

I just removed some text with the word 'bullshit' as it was hurtfull to the event. - Anthony Timberlake

Please provide a citation for the assertion that WTC7 was "heavily damaged" before it's collapse. I am unable to locate any. - Justin Keogh

Freefall

Ah yes, policies and guidelines… Mechanics you say? How about this, we stop using popular mechanics, and we include good old laws of physic: http://www.stlouisrams.net/911/freefall.htm (quite witty in my humble opinion). It would help… otherwise someone might just feel the need to share his perspective on freefall:), and turn this into, oh my, an open and free discussion! Mechanics you say? Any honest mechanic would state the same; it is now far beyond the repair… Such sad guidelines here, right? Talk page with no talk allowed? Must admit, this whole thing is very consistent in terms of insanity and indecency… 1984? Press restart to continue?

Reference: http://www.physicsclassroom.com/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:September_11%2C_2001_attacks/archive20#Credible_Academic_Sources --Lovelight 3:33 PM, 29 August 2006 (CET)

In the link, objects are assumed to fall but not accelerate, and glass is assumed to be elastic, so it offers no insight into the real world. Peter Grey 18:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

And Peter, you have to understand that pancake theory is nothing but an insult. Honestly. http://www.reopen911.org/Tarpley_ch_6.pdf#search=%22911%20collapse%20pdf%22.However, I am willing to let that go (for now) because I simply find such discussion utterly, wholly, completely… absurdum & insane… --Lovelight

Peter, as a good Wikipedian I always make an effort to assume good faith, but in this case I can't help but wonder if you either didn't read the article, or perhaps you're attempting to spread some FUD just for the hell of it. That was probably the clearest and most concise explanation of why "The Pancake Theory" and it's kissing cousin "Global Progressive Collapse." previously discussed right here on this page by Ed the Engineer, are physically impossible. [[1]]

Remember, you can break the law, but you can't break the laws of physics.

Digiterata 22:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Clearest, most concise, and yet wrong. The article presents an analogy, not scientific reasoning, starting with assumptions that are pure fantasy. Hence the conclusions won't apply in the real world. Peter Grey 01:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

User:EngineerEd was a strawman account of User:TruthSeeker1234...[2], so what EngineerEd had to say on the matter is a mute point.--MONGO 22:13, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Interesting, I wasn't aware of the sockpuppeteering. I will admit to being somewhat suspicious of User:EngineerEd from the start, but I just checked into the Sockpuppet history. Never would have expected that one. [[3]]

Still, it's always bothered me that the Verifiable and extremely Notable observation of the near freefall collapse times of the three WTC buildings has never been included in this page. Please state your objections to my proposal to include a line referencing this. Digiterata 22:40, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

You can forget about that, it would imply the American government is capabel of killing people and then lie about it, and the majority of wikipedians can not belive that would be the case. --Striver 00:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Inasmuch as the majority of wikipedians are in fact American, I am willing to believe that. But the rest of the world does not have such unwavering faith in the US government's good will. That aside, on a more scientific note, this conspiracy theory about explosives being planted in the towers being the only explanation for their near freefall-speed collapse is a bit ridiculous, and smacks of rudimentary high-school physics knowledge. The collapse of each successive floor, combined with the intense heat of a full tank of jet fuel burning, could have caused the destruction of the support structures of the floors immediately under the collapsing floor BEFORE the bulk of the upper collapsing floor arrived, meaning that there would be no "glass pane" to break through by the time the upper floor arrived. But even this is conjecture. The collapse of such a structure is a massively complicated event, and a few basic physics equations, which are based on a scenario simplified for school textbooks, cannot be used as the basis for a serious discussion. --Daniel, 23:30 3 September 2006 (NZT)

To be honest, while I find information added here quite interesting (a brave new perspective on wiki world indeed), I sincerely couldn’t find it relevant. Whether wikipedians choose to ignore facts and continue to dream about freefall whose fundamental flaw is showed in very means and ways it is engineered… fact remains that AOL is a part of WWW and that same goes for Wiki… As straightforward as it sounds, you can get that link (which just fueled more nonsense here, and which I find to be very sad from many standpoints) with simple query to Google. As a matter of a fact, if one uses Google search engine to seek for truth he will get far better results then those displayed here or "disgusted" in the article. It will hit you right there on the first page, and first 11 slaps will show you all the material one needs… Of course, you have to understand that Google was forced to omit relevant pages for such a long time that I will commend their determination to come clean out of all this in same manner in which I will congratulate to Simpsons, who incredibly as it sounds managed to be so clairvoyant that they actually illustrated the state of the world today (season 3, if I can recall it correctly, very precise, along with twins, and monorails and so on…). Now, if one put's all that aside and just submerges under this lucid surface into the free and crystal clear depths of P2P he will see true numbers (it's about seeds & peers after all). One will know that war waged on these pages is now over and that only place where combat still rages is in the mind of Mongo and his kin… With your actions here, you fuel very dangerous form of dissent, that's all. Whatever doctrine single mind chooses to justify freefall the outcome will be such to restore the balance. It is very simple actually, you know, Coke-Pepsi, Nvidia-Ati, Intel-AMD & so on… You see this view of freefall: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domino_effect is worth nothing to us all, while this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect, well this one is worth everything... I will not stand for fear & terror, my course is peace & love (in Texas people call me terrorist when I say that:), there's no prison facility in the world (http://www.roadtoguantanamomovie.com/; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page) which will change that.

Finally, if you would just ponder on what's happening here (in the history of this page), you would conclude that there are people willing to fight against:

  1. Freedom of speech and expression
  2. Freedom of every person to worship God in his own way
  3. Freedom from want — individual economic security
  4. Freedom from fear — world disarmament to the point that wars of aggression are impossible.

In other words, some of you fight against: a state in which somebody is able to act and live as he or she chooses, without being subject to any undue restraints or restrictions.

Consider this to be well intended digression from popular mechanics, you can remove it, or you can just admit that you are on one way street with the dead end. http://youtube.com/watch?v=5l5bSxpCKEI. --Lovelight 7:27 AM, 30 August 2006 (CET)

Not sure what to say...I guess...gee, I'm convinced...the thousands of scientists that haven't agreed to your beliefs must all be inept.--MONGO 06:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Which scientists? These? http://www2.nea.org/he/heta05/images/2005pg119.pdf#search=%22911%20academics%22

Mongo on your user page you are posing in front of those towers like a peacock, that role suit's you well… -- Lovelight 8:33 AM, 30 August 2006 (CET)

Glad you like it.--MONGO 06:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

You've made your thoughts clear Lovelight. Everybody already knows what Mongos thoughts are concerning the matter. Now that you two have broken the ice, I see some nice harmonious editing on the horizon. Notable, reliably sourced, verifiable information for any would-be content additions or changes. I'm sure we can all agree on that? SkeenaR 06:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

We,ve seen all that and it's not going in this article.--MONGO 11:08, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about? If something is notable, reliably sourced and verifiable, then what exactly is the problem? SkeenaR 19:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Is anything brought up in this section notable, reliably sourced, and verifiable? Domino effect? Butterfly effect? --Mmx1 19:13, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Never mind those effects; well intended digression caused by the moment of passion, that's all… Fact remains that simple physics are utterly neglected in main article and I'm still waiting for a word from our fine administrators… hopefully we may hear some valid reasons why such information's cannot be included? -- Lovelight 11:53 PM, 30 August 2006 (CET)

becaucse it isn't true http://911myths.com/WTCREPORT.pdf .Geni 22:05, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I am sorry but if you would be so kind and simulate another presentation? It could be that I missed it somehow, but I don’t see any reference about building 7? You know, the one which was http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7750532340306101329 "pulled" down? Here's another clip: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4322650841860671469. As I said I find this to be far more modest and far more honest explanation: http://www.stlouisrams.net/911/freefall.htm, think that this one is OK to: http://www.911blimp.net/prf_FreeFallPhysics.shtml or this one: http://911truestory.com/, or this one: http://www.yeeguy.com/freefall/ or… I could go on, but mongo already whooped me for lesser misconduct… Perhaps we should share other perspectives of freefall after all? --Lovelight 12:48 PM, 31 August 2006 (CET)

building 7? yes I belive that has been covered http://911myths.com/html/wtc7___silverstein.html .Geni 23:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Well you could have covered a bit more, you offer me myth, and I offer you the world? http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=building+7&btnG=Search... It just doesn’t seem right, you know? -- Lovelight bedtime

Remember, you can break the law, but you can't break the laws of physics.

No, I was pointing out that article editing would be more constructive than arguing on the talk page. And that we are supposed to include information that is notable, reliably sourced and verifiable. Digiterata also pointed this out. I will try and do this myself when I have some time. Also wondering what the problem is with including such material. SkeenaR 19:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Best Seller Book online (independant investigation) here: http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/04-01-06/discussion.cgi.56.html

It's funny how sometimes, when reading these discussions, I don't even notice sliding down the rabbit hole, and other times it tickles a little. Levi P. 22:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

And analogies like that one make it still more interesting. SkeenaR 23:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, perspectives, perspectives… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_mcgee%27s_alice... --Lovelight around bedtime

Nice book, you should read it before, he is 5 stars in amazon.com and amazon.co.uk.

Junk science, but since Aljazeera likes it, it's got to be a fact-filled account, for sure. The author of the book isn't a doctor even...it;s just his pen-name. Please stop using this page as a measageboard...this is an encyclopedia project, not a blog.--MONGO 11:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi there Mongo, could you explain (as policy holder here) policies and guidelines concerning notable, reliably sourced, and verifiable information's. The reason I ask? Well, every time one queries Google for something related to 911 the first page spit's out approximately 10/10 results which are to be dismissed here as junk science? Take this for illustration: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=controlled+demolition+911&btnG=Google+Search. So just clarify to us all… why are these sources neglected in spite the fact that they are obviously done by vast (notable) variety of World Wide Web users? Your statement from above: "We,ve seen all that and it's not going in this article.--MONGO 11:08, 30 August 2006 (UTC)" is deeply disturbing. If you are biased on this matter, which you just said there yourself and which is more then obvious to anyone who visited your user page or took a look at your correspondence in last few months, then you are also against everything stated here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_guidelines. --Lovelight 2:16 PM 31 August 2006 (CET)

PS.If you need a reminder on how Google works, you may find it here: http://www.google.com/technology/pigeonrank.html

I'm not the policy holder here and I don't appreciate you saying I'm biased. I sdupport what is documaented by fact based evidence, not a bunch of home propaganda videos and other nonsense. Google rankings mean notablility, and have zero to do with reliability.--MONGO 12:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Reliability of sources in the main article doesn’t exist, look at previous discussions, every reference can be easily dismissed http://www.911truth.org/. You are eager and ready to enlist Fox as a reliable source? Knowing who: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Murdoch is? On other hand you are all vigorous when it comes to dismissing independent research of the subject? Just take a review of things you wrote to SkeenaR and others who were on this page asking for change… I find comments like this to be more then valid: http://www.newswithviews.com/Pratt/larry62.htm, and I always won't second opinion. That warning you just send to my talk page is intended for you, not for me… you folks are keeping this status quo for years now. Is that constructive? Constructive obstruction of wikipedia editors? And please don't speak to me about insults; you locked me out as soon as I tried to step in? Remember!? --Lovelight 2:55 PM 31 August 2006 (CET)

You have produced nothing but blogs and links to websites and silly google videos that have no basis in fact. Where were you "locked out"...were you banned from editing here before?--MONGO 14:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

No, I was quite happy until that CSI fodder came to my TV. I wasn’t interested in the politics and I didn't care about 911 (however, I did keep my eye on it, very closely; my work implies ability to see and understand numerous perspectives…). But then this fear and terror thing is unsustainable (dumb to be honest), years are wasted (not to mention lives) and I choose to act. You can see my contributions in article about Starforce which is in some ways related to this madness. I have never been locked out before, and I dropped a note concerning that lock out. Here is the summary of that massage: "I will be free to write politely and speak kindly what ever I wish, when ever I wish, and on any level of my conciseness…". Anyway, I'm quite consistent in matters of truth, love, peace and understanding, in other words, to current American administration I would be worst nightmare, the highest sort of terrorist. It is enough, I see kids dissent in most desperate ways, they play GTA games and I have to watch how US throw's another big one but through conventional means (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ - quite close to that Nagasaki score, you know?), people around the world see that as another episode of CSI? Patriot Acts? Freedom of speech? Well enough is enough… --Lovelight 2:57 PM 31 August 2006 (CET)

Two planes hit the WTC: 'an attack' or 'attacks'?

I've noticed a few places in various articles where references are made to the "attack on the WTC" and to the "attacks on the WTC". Are both planes hitting the WTC considered a single attack, or do they represent multiple attacks? The name of this article does not provide enough reference for clarification, as it categorically includes the plane in PA and the Pentagon.

Example of the problem from Windows on the World:

Windows of the World was destroyed in the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. At the time of the attack, the restaurant was hosting regular breakfast patrons and the Waters Financial Technology Congress. In addition to 73 restaurant staff who were present at the time, 16 Waters employees perished as well as all 71 conference guests. Noone, who was present in these rooms at the time of the attacks survived.

Sdr 03:09, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

That's a good question. Probably a non-plural attack for a few reasons. Since the towers were part of one complex, the WTC complex, and the planes were a part of the same operation, it would be singular. If "attack" was always used instead of "attacks", it will also remove any ambiguity in other places as to whether the statement also refers to the '93 bombing. I guess the way that word is used actually does make a difference. Still though, it might not be quite that clear cut, since there was the Pentagon attack as well. That could make it Sept 11 "attacks". I think the best way is for the WTC to be an "attack", and Sept 11 to be "attacks". I do know of one outfit that persistently refers to the WTC attack as a plural, and that would be the lawyers trying to collect insurance money on the towers. It turns out they would get double the amount for two attacks instead of one. They said each plane was a seperate attack . That's in the Larry Silverstein article. SkeenaR 03:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3682671.stm --Lovelight)

If you really want a reference on whether to use "attack" or "attacks" -- look at Pearl Harbor. While we generally consider it to be one attack - but in actually, the Japanese used multiple attack waves in their plan by sending planes to fly over the base from multiple directions. Likewise for 9/11, we have multiple planes used to attack multiple targets; but directed at two different cities but all in the same day; for this, it is September 11 Attacks. As far as the World Trade Center is concerned, it is considered to be one facility - and therefore, one target. Thus, on the World Trade Center, it was one attack despite the use of two planes. KyuuA4 08:18, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Foreknowledge

Let's build our foreknowledge now… this is what we know to be undisputed and true: http://911readingroom.org/bib/; feel free to dispute those facts.

This: http://www.hereinreality.com/carlyle.html is a place where you'll meet some of the people who forged our reality, and if you fallow the tracks you're bound to learn about their connection to 911 attacks and such wars as one in Afghanistan, Iraq… You'll also learn a lot about trading that took place just before 911 events. That link is of the top, search for "Carlyle Group" if you won't to know more. What is important is the source of information http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&before_9/11=insiderTrading, which (for most part) came directly from press agencies such as associated press, Reuters, and so on. In other words all this knowledge is valid and at our disposal. Feel free to use Google to clarify things. Everything about inside trading that took place before 911 can be easily verified in any newspaper archive timed in the days following 911 (for those with short memories) events. This route (perspective) will lead reader way back into the history; it will provide a good foundation for understanding economic, social & military background of 911 events. Also, please do take a moment to learn about the interests of US administration, those former and/or current one: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/bush_family_911.html. Finally if this page would serve its purpose, then we would be free to discuss all sort's of things. Here is an example taken from another (not moderated) public forum (http://www.topix.net/forum/news/george-bush): "The 911 attacks were attributed to osama bin laden from the onset. Let's just say for the bushies it wasn't an attack by our own. With the conspiracy theories aside let's look at the "undisputable facts". On Sept 11 2001 there was a meeting in NY of the board of directors and the major investors of the Carlyle Group, a Saudi owned energy firm boasting the biggest profits of any company in world history. Now also in attendance of these meetings was george bush sr. who at the time was on the board of directors and financial advisor of the Carlyle Group. The bushes are also among the largest investor in this company with apx. 78% of their net worth invested in the Carlyle group. Now the largest investors are the Bin laden family and the Saudi royals. No less than 26 members of the bin laden family were attending this meeting along with the Saudi royals on the morning of 911. After the attacks the only people allowed to take to the skies were the Saudi royals and the binladens"… --Lovelight 4:05 PM 31 August 2006 (CET)

All thses points have been address...all I see are links to conspriacy theory websites with popups. Show me some peer reviewed proof that the mainstream version is wrong.--MONGO 14:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

So you say that mainstream agencies are worthless (could agree on that one)? Honestly, I don't care who gathered resources… I already stated that all those links provide valid and undisputed facts. If you click those links, you'll see that you just said how associated press, Reuters, Washington Post and so on... are not valid sources. Read what is provided, I haven’t addressed these issues, and I won't let go… Conspiracy is not a code word here, code word is TRUTH! --Lovelight 4:55 PM 31 August 2006 (CET)

What truth? Show me something that is a reliable source that the proven evidence about what happened on 9/11 is wrong. All you're doing is linking us to blogs and websites that are controlled by one or a few websmasters and they have editorial control over what they have there...that's not science...it's science fiction.--MONGO 15:05, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Again, these locations provide a gathering place for all willing or unwilling mistakes that were made by mainstream media. Look, go here: http://911readingroom.org/bib/ and click on foreknowledge… every document there is provided by AP, New York Times, Reuters and so on… --Lovelight 5:14 PM 31 August 2006 (CET)

It's all because that conspiracy nonsense, conspiracy has nothing to do with that, I would provide you with the direct link, but that website is designed to be navigated, not disputed right there in the lobby… --Lovelight 5:17 PM 31 August 2006 (CET)

Great, Cynthia McKinney [4] 9/11 links and other links to conspiracy theory websites...there's nothing to any of that worth the time of day.--MONGO 15:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

There is no point is spamming this page with conspiracist essays. I'm going to start removing stuff that would be better on blogspot. Tom Harrison ^Talk 14:50, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

If you choose to remove valid sources, I'll have to dig up every single document in his original form… and then we'll have ZOO. Please, do catch you breath and check what is provided… --Lovelight 5:01 PM 31 August 2006 (CET)

Please be more specific, there is no sense is presenting a large volume of documentation and throwing out a challenge to verify it all. And even verifiable facts are inappropriate if they have the effect (or intention) of misleading Wikipedia readers. Plus the word "truth" gets abused so much the discussion frequently doesn't even make sense. There are many speculations, with varying degrees of plausibility and evidence. Checking the link at 15:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC), there are no new facts, although to its credit the site declares its bias up front. Peter Grey 15:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

My apologies, but I've been mistreated here for no reason whatsoever… and I had to stop good old Tom there from acting hasty and robustly… This section is named foreknowledge. Links that are provided need to be navigated and I can help that, whether you find that particular website biased or not, it is not of an issue. When you enter that lobby click on section called foreknowledge and see documentation provided there… It is good tool to find mainstream articles about 911 events which illustrate need for further discussion. As I said, one can provide all that data link by link, but such things are called entropy. Plus the word "conspiracy" gets abused so much the discussion frequently doesn't even make sense. --Lovelight 5:41 PM 31 August 2006 (CET)

I checked a few of the "foreknowledge" articles. Seems like they seem to agree that terrorist organizations are suspected of planning acts of terrorism and there are occasional reports about that. Most are false alarms, some are investigated further and found to be false alarms, some are real plans that are caught in time, sometimes one gets through. Is there an actual point to all of this "foreknowledge"? Here is some more foreknowledge: Al Qaeda guys are planning terrorism right now and will strike some time in the future. Whatchagonnadooabootit? Weregerbil 18:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

What is "building foreknowledge" anyway? Is there a specific deficiency with the article, not previously discussed, that would make Wikipedia better? Peter Grey 18:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, thank you for pointing that out. It is about new perspectives, which are becoming clearer because more and more information is available. If you take a look at this: http://www.vanityfair.com/features/general/060801fege01; you will meet the chaos of that day from military perspective. If you know where most of US forces were playing that day (in spite clear and present foreknowledge), you may have to ask yourself about reasons for such colossal ineptitude. People need to be aware that documents such as: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwood, do carry certain weight. Post 911 world is very sad place, we know where it all started, and we should investigate. Official story is very poorly presented… It would be very narrow-minded to extract this event from global picture. After all it did serve as a false cause for invasion of Iraq. The man who is supposedly guilty is somewhere enjoying his frozen margaritas and world is trembling in unnatural state of fear & terror. We have to ask ourselves why American people stand for all that, why they don't act when they know that it was a lie from beginning.http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/ohiostatusrept1505.pdf#search=%22ohio%20hearings%20pdf%22; http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&lr=&q=clint%20curtis%20testimony&btnG=Search&sa=N&tab=wv; or to be on the target here, why is this particular discussion under surveillance, or what ever did that funny banner show that other day? --Lovelight 9:05 PM 31 August 2006 (CET)

Well, I found a good solid link too...it evokes a spirit of understanding beyond which I could ever have hoped would happen....[5]--MONGO 21:36, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Constructive Mongo, not destructive. Remember? Hate, anger and fear are the most destructive ways, try to find opposite values. That aside, part of building our foreknowledge is in understanding who and what Osama is. It is already taken in account with links above, so you just have to recall how it all started: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Afghanistan#US_involvement_in_Afghanistan, then you use Google with queries like this one> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=osama+cia&btnG=Search; or this one: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Osama+Bin+laden+medical+treatment+&btnG=Search or http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=osama+cia+pdf&btnG=Search & so on… there is a root of all this fear & terror nonsense and it is not so hard to find. It will hurt some… but what is there to do… sit back while someone ravages through Lebanon http://www.amnesty.org/ in most callous way? Anyway I won't post zounds of links here, feel free to add whatever you think is important. And please, do keep in mind that the only way to write this (any) article properly and decently is logos. History is a good tool, Wikipedia is not the best place to check for facts connected to 911 events. Take this page for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_laden, at one point you'll see fact's there, at other you'll see poorly and deliberately drawled lies. It's about editing wars, it's healthy but it leads of the path… --Lovelight 12:11 PM 1 September 2006 (CET)

It is about new perspectives. More information becomes available, but also more disinformation. Genuinely new perspectives might well improve Wikipedia, although new does not necessarily imply it will qualify as encyclopedic. In the absence, however, of new perspectives or new information this discussion does not contribute anything to the article. Peter Grey 15:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Is it so? If new perspectives are new (or to be quite honest, hundreds of years old) then how may we discuss them without a discussion? This is not a child play, let me illustrate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCaBCdJWOyM. --Lovelight 5:20 PM 1 September 2006 (CET)

New to the article, obviously. I assume if you challenge people to spend their valuable time following dozens of links, then you've read all 20 archived talk pages yourself, right? Peter Grey 15:28, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes I did, at least good part of it… but visitors didn’t. Why would I throw more links here? You neglected thousands of them already… Anyway, what I'm trying to say, it is important to relate this discussion to current events; it is a contemporary talk about the past events? We cannot be just technical when we speak of our present or future. You may insist to keep this event frozen in time, but then you would loose the touch with reality http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5305024.stm. If wikipedia chooses to ignore the current facts, then you say so clearly… I'm not in the hurry… & nope, not new to the article. Didn't like it in first place… simply not interested in false information's. --Lovelight 5:51 PM 1 September 2006 (CET)

Ok but in order to stay more objective, we should set all the hypotheseis discussed including: CIA, Israel, Russia implication and Naom Shomsky; David Duke opinions, ....why to avoid those probabilities thanks.

Noam Chomsky? He's a giant, just for his contributions to computer science. --Slipgrid 03:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Secondary Explosions

I don't see any info about secondary explosions in this article. These were widely reported by first responders and workers at the World Trade Center. Why this is allowed to be only mentioned in the conspiracy theory section only leads to more believing there's a true conspiracy.

Video of Firefights reacting to a secondary explosion... note the loud boom that causes the Firefighers to jump and make comments.

Police officials tell MSNBC reporter of explosive devices found at WTC

Firefighter tells of eyewitness accounts of secondary explosions

Here's someone's play list, with links to many clips that give evidence of secondary explosions

Why doesn't this article mention the evidence of secondary explosions? Slipgrid 08:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course, article should reflect these facts; Wikipedia is independent source of our knowledge. Whether someone likes or dislikes certain facts is not an issue here. Such essentials simply need to be referenced. First reports and eyewitness accounts are more than numerous, everything can be easily verified through mainstream media, whether we talk about video streams or hard copies of newspaper. --Lovelight 12:00 PM 1 September 2006 (CET)

Ok, we have a section called "Investigations." Under that heading, we have "The collapse of the World Trade Center" and "9/11 Commission Report," though the former section seems like it is part of the later. That is, "The Collapse of the World Trade Center" should be called "The collapse of the World Trade Center According to the 9/11 Commission." So, I would think the first thing to do is to change this heading. Then, since this is not a place for the 9/11 Commission Report to be reprinted, that section should be removed, or rewritten to reflect objective reality. That is, I didn't come to this page to see what the 9/11 Commission said happened, I came here to see what actually happened. Then, this new section needs to detail what actually happend, including the evidence. I think the video evidence of eyewitness accounts and the secondary explosions stands on it's own, and should be part of this page.Slipgrid 16:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

You would be wrong. The evidence of 'secondary explosions' means nothing. Also, I will not look at YouTube stuff at work - can you transcribe the bit about 'explosive devices found'? By the way, since when did professional demolition use explosive devices? That seems to me to imply a self-contained bomb, with timer and fuse. Professional demolition doesn't work that way. I love tearing down this theory, it's so fun. --Golbez 19:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The evidence is clear. Secondary explosions happened. How can you imagine that these do not factor into the falling of this building? --Slipgrid 00:06, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Would you explain that rezoning to me please? YouTube video clips? These streams are taken from TV stations, news stations and so on. Just use your logic, please. For example explain to me that tremendous heat that melts, pardon, cuts steel? While you and I and anyone who was shocked that day saw people standing in those holes. Listen to do fireman reports, they talk about isolated pockets of fire, they can take them out… free stairway… yet those towers fell? What exactly are you tearing down here? Eyewitness testimonies? Ridiculous, with your reasoning it is no wonder that this page is in such state… http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/firefighter-tape-excerpts.htm; I will provide more about this later. --Lovelight 10:42 PM 1 September 2006 (CET)

My reasoning was simple - I won't watch a video at work. I don't think my boss appreciates it. And I didn't want to wait til I got home. Basically, you have to do one thing, and one thing only, to convince me that controlled demolition brought down the towers - give me evidence that the explosives were planted. Not found - planted. Tell me who wired 270 floors of office tower to collapse, and when they did it. It's quite simple. If you can't, then move on - there's a lot stronger evidence a hundred floors up of what caused the collapse than what you can give. Jeez, it's not like we haven't spent the last half decade dealing with this stuff, I'd've thought you people would have given up on this article by now and gone back to your poorly-designed blogs and the Conspiracy article, which exists just for you! So have fun with it! But leave the main article alone. It's for fact only. Facts: Planes crashed into towers, towers collapsed. Conjecture: That anything else happened. This article is not for conjecture. --Golbez 20:53, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Convince you? Who are you? Is your opinion higher then mine? Please answer my questions, if you can. I don’t care what you people have done in last five years. I asked you a question; explain to me how can someone live in thousands of Fahrenheit's? Another freefall nonsense? Tell me why the firemen who were right there in the middle of inferno didn’t scream in terror? You have done nothing in last half of decade, nothing but silent consent to murder, pain & suffering. I'll answer your question, when you answer mine. --Lovelight 11:07 PM 1 September 2006 (CET)

Frankly, yes, it is, because it is correct. I will not answer your questions because I will not be suckered in to a fight with you. This will not be put into this article, that is final. --Golbez 21:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

And what is this? Beg your pardon, but I find that remark quite personal. Would it be impolite if I would smack you with the ruler? Here have a gift instead: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-logic/ so that we may stand as equal and have same "Organon". If you have any personal remarks, we can share them on our talk pages… --Lovelight

PS. http://www.apfn.org/APFN/WTC_questions.htm

Very well, it is just the sort of information control I'm talking about… thank you for making it clear. Here is another youtube clip… don’t worry it's the last one, very clear one, you should see it:)… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XKa8VE7ILI --Lovelight 11:42 PM 1 September 2006 (CET)

Wah wah censorship. Yes, we censor crackpots. Something to be proud of. And that trailer, I thought you were trying to make a point. A movie trailer. Wow. Yeah, that did it. --Golbez 21:45, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Christ, I just watched the video about 'police find bomb'. It was described second-hand as a SUSPICIOUS DEVICE. There are dozens of suspicious devices found every day, and very very rarely are they bombs. Sigh. Try to think, please. And then we have "reason to believe some of the explosions may have been caused by a van". Wow, two waffles - 'reason to believe' and 'may have been caused'. Similes, not statements of fact. If the police said "one of the explosions was caused by a van", THEN we're in business. But no. You have similes and .. movie trailers. Grand job. --Golbez 21:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Golbez, please don't post here if you do not look at all the info referenced. Did you watch the video where the bomb goes off? The evidence is clear, and you are on the border of being a troll --Slipgrid 00:14, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

My dear Goblez, I am a person of classical education, I find your logic poor and dim… I would like to present this page to the mainstream media around the world now. Hope you won't mind… nor vandalize. --Lovelight 11:53 PM 1 September 2006 (CET)

As long as you don't present similes as facts. --Golbez 21:56, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Wrong again, it is about you choosing to ridicule and dismiss very serious discussion… but so did Mongo, and Peter and so on… Nothing to worry here, it is just decent and honest insight about poor state of our Wikipedia. --Lovelight 12:01 AM 1 September 2006 (CET)

No, it will not be included in this article. That's it. Morton devonshire 22:11, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

… and Morton:), good night & good luck... --Lovelight 12:20 PM 2 September 2006 (CET)

Ah, the 5th of September, ehh? Are you my friend the "Che Vandal"?[6] Morton devonshire 22:33, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

It's both cute and pathetic, really. He makes these statements, I hit them at their weakest point, and suddenly we're satans or draculas, or possibly zombie draculas. I used independent thought, now it's your turn. --Golbez 22:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Golbez, your willingness, or unwillingness, to watch the clear evidence of secondary explosions, does not mean they didn't happen! Such remarks about being able or unable, willing or unwilling, to watch clear video evidence, does not belong on this page! --Slipgrid 00:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Slipgrid, out of curiosity, why are you surprised by secondary explosions in a buiding collapse or fire? werent there cars parked in the WTC and the usual assortment of gas lines, boilers, airconditioners and janitorial supplies? Mrdthree 01:35, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I am very surprised by secondary explosions before the buildings collapsed. Here's some reasons. Seismic data shows very larges explosions. Most of the jet fuel burned outside the building. This is evident by seeing people standing at the holes in the buildings. You don't get large explosions like this at other building fires. The media reported on the secondary explosions once, never redacted their stories, but never talked of them again. Those, and many more reasons caused me to be surprised.--Slipgrid 03:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

About that seismic data: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=911+seismic+data&btnG=Search --Lovelight 10:41 AM 2 September 2006 (CET)

The unfortunate reality is that an enormous body of folklore, and outright disinformation, has appeared surrounding this subject matter. Hence new material is assessed critically (and in general reasonably fairly). These suggested improvements are rejected because they lack supporting evidence and/or scientific accuracy. Peter Grey 01:52, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The objective reality is in the videos I linked.--Slipgrid 03:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Then your objective reality is made up of similes and plot holes. --Golbez 03:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

They only provide evidence of sounds similar to explosions - an unremarkable occurrence in a structurally-compromised building. Peter Grey 04:11, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Morning fellows, do focus on building 7, would you? It is as frail as house of cards. Here's one link: http://www.911research.wtc7.net/. Before you dismiss it in your wise and polite manner, please notice that fine disclaimer: http://www.911research.wtc7.net/re911/disclaimer.html; think it is written with you on mind. Then go here: http://www.wtc7.net/ and check the highlights with full speed, then break a little and read what's written here: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fema_report.html. After you done, come share your illogical reasons to neglect those facts… Soon we may also talk about those passports: http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/deceptions/passport.html, which is just.., oh what a poor, poor movie. And that cleanup? Lovely, isn’t it? Let's take all the evidence and quickly incinerate them in China… Thieves in the night… --Lovelight 10:35 AM 2 September 2006 (CET)

PS. Here, picture what will happen when we start to talk about other serious issues: http://images.google.com/images?q=pentagon+911+pictures&hl=en&lr=&sa=X&oi=images&ct=title

Attacks in popular culture

Most articles have a section about an event in popular culture. Can somebody please add it? I am aware that some may contributores may find this inappropriate for such a tragic event, but I do not find this a good reason because it is also there for other tragic event such as the Jonestown and I am not aware of any policy forbidding this. Thanks in advance. Andries 13:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I mean if this is refused in this article for stated reasons then I think the same reason should apply for several other articles as well. Andries 13:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Sections_.22In_popular_culture.22_for_tragic_events Andries 14:15, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

September 11, 2001 attacks in arts and literature is linked from this article, I think in the "memorials" section. Maybe it ought to be linked in a different spot, but it's there. This material was once here in the main article, but due to its length was split into a separate subarticle. There is also List of films about September 11, 2001, which is tagged to be merged with the other article. --Aude (talk contribs) 14:21, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. Andries 18:02, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

While this sort of addendum might sooth some, in my humble opinion it will do as much good as first walk on the moon did. So let's take a look at tragedy of that day. Tragedy that reoccurred more than once and it threats to reoccur on the daily basis with incredibly prudent and sane statements of US president, who is very clear and persistent in fueling that very interesting (and never before heard of) islamo-nazi doctrine. So let us all just sing dim, dumb da dumb while we cross the event horizon? Well good ladies and gentleman it won't be the case here, no tin foils, no lemmings and no nonsense from my part. I won't be blinded in front of the firing squad. In my time, I've seen pictures of presidents in schools, and they have right to be there in same manner as burning cross or devastated statues of Buddha. I was million miles away but I did cry that day, wonder what some of you did? Loosed your logos in awe and amazement? This being another digression, I apologies as I get back to popular culture. So here, have another very clear, very insightful illustration. This event need to be related to historical perspective (which is a bit different approach then popular culture), then you may noticed that person who speak in the name of God (any god) deserves to be answered in same manner. Overgrown brutes who with their interpretation of divine wisdom cause event such as this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_massacre (another heavily disputed article there), will get same sort of fundamental (which is fundamentally flawed, but in some cases rather necessary) answers: http://www.systemofadownonline.com/lyrics/0101.htm. And please do understand that this is an illustration, not my point of view. More about popular culture in form of multimedia will be available on my user page. More movies about 911 can be found here: http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=911&btnG=Google+Search&sa=N&tab=wv --Lovelight 11:00 PM 3 September 2006 (CET)

Intro

What is with the "... acording to the official story" line at the end of the introduction. It seems a bit POV to me.

Already corrected. Peter Grey 00:20, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I find the conclusiveness with which the statements are made in the introduction to be unwarranted. If this were not such a politically charged situation, the traditional Anglo-American values of "innocent until proven guilty" would prevail. In discussions elsewhere I have asked for solid evidence that the 19 men named as perpetrators were indeed the culprits. Such evidence has never been forthcoming. Indeed, the FBI doesn't even list bin Laden as a suspect in the 9/11 attacks. This fact is addressed here: FBI says, "No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11" Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI. When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden’s Most Wanted web page, Tomb said, “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.” I will observe that Tomb gave a more equivocal statement to the Washington Post a month later. Bin Laden, Most Wanted For Embassy Bombings?

"The absence has also provided fodder for conspiracy theorists [NB the inane pejorative] who think the U.S. government or another power was behind the Sept. 11 hijackings. From this point of view, the lack of a Sept. 11 reference suggests that the connection to al-Qaeda is uncertain."

But the statement that "Exhaustive government and independent investigations have concluded otherwise, of course, and bin Laden and other al-Qaeda leaders have proudly taken responsibility for the hijackings." Is simply not supported by the evidence. If you believe that I am wrong about this matter, then show me the evidence!.

Is wikipedia more than propaganda tool for the military-industrial complex? How would the Gulf of Tonkin or USS Liberty incidents be treated if they were current events today? History screams to us that we must hold the Government suspect, and demand compelling evidence supporting any claim of consequence promulgated by our public servants. Indeed, our Founding Fathers demanded this of us. The Internet gives us a chance to get it right. Let's not blow it by continuing down the same well trodden corridor of generations passed.

It is apparent to me that the uncritical acceptance of the accusations against the men named as perpetrators in the 9/11 attacks is due to religious and ethnic bigotry, and not due to evidence presented. The images found on pages linked from the FBI's 9/11 Investigation (PENTTBOM) page in conjunction with the accusations against these men contained therein constitute a crime of defamation of character. That crime is motivated by racial and religious bigotry of the basest nature, and therefore constitutes a hate crime. I do not believe "hate crime" legislation is proper, but the statutes exist and are loudly proclaimed as of primary importance by the FBI. Hetware 20:44, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Yet another stirring rhetorical exercise! Job well done. We will all surely note that you believe something called...um..."PrisonPlanet" is a reputable source, yet you disparage the Washington Post. Makes sense to me! Levi P. 21:07, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I do not trust any source without reservation. I try very hard to cross verify any questionable assertions, regardless of the source. The New York Times and Washington Post have proven to be unreliable on many crucial issues. Take for example their original reporting on Hurricane Katrina in which both newspapers asserted the NOLA levees broke after midnight of the night following landfall.

I have read the relevant sections of the NIST NCSTAR 1: Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster: Final Report of the National Construction Safety Team on the Collapses of the World Trade Center Tower as well as the World Trade Center Building Performance Study by FEMA, and the Final Report of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, Official Government Edition. I have also carefully considered what Steven E. Jones presents in Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?. I have read the sections in university textbooks on the theory of blackbody radiation, as well as researched the emissivity and refectivity characteristics of aluminum and iron under relevant physical conditions. I have examined the videos allegedly of Osama bin Laden taking credit for the 9/11 attacks. I have investigated the characteristics of the aircraft involved, as well as the witness accounts and available flight data from the aircraft.

On the basis of my research I have concluded the official conspiracy theory is a fraud. When I asked for evidence I was presented with inane innuendo. I will take that as further evidence of the rightness of my conclusions.Hetware 13:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The onus is on challengers to provide credible evidence that the article contains errors. And if by "official theory" you refer to the "9/11 Commission", that has its own article.Peter Grey 17:43, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

It is all nonsense Peter, right there from the freefall, or controlled demolition or whatever you wont to call it… so what exactly are we doing here? Neglecting logic, ridicule laws of physics, dismissing well elaborated and deeply researched subjects and so on… It is not upon the challengers, facts speak for them self. In last week none of the keepers answered single question. You just kept pointing in other directions, directions which are quite far from our focal point of interest… --Lovelight 8:44 PM 5 September 2006 (CET)

What are you calling "nonsense"? The scientific analyses of professional structural engineers, or the personal intuition of amateurs that contradicts them? Recall this familiar link, which as previously pointed out is not even based on real-word physics. (That writer apparently does not even realize that gravity is an acceleration, not a velocity.) Peter Grey 19:26, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

What on Earth does the acceleration of gravity have to do with evidence linking Osama bin Laden to 9/11? I asked for evidence implicating the accused to the crimes. So far the only "evidence" I've seen are the accusations leveled by the US Government, the extraordinarily dubious presence of passports allegedly found at the crash sites, the aircraft manuals allegedly found in vehicles used by the accused, and the clearly fraudulent Osame bin Laden "confession" videos. You have not shown one shred of evidence that the 19 alleged hijackers committed these acts. Just a little effort on your part will lead you to BBC articles claiming that several of the alleged suicide hijackers were still alive after 9/11/01. If you believe that Hani Hanjour executed the extraordinary final maneuver of AA77 just before it hit the Pentagon, I have to conclude that you are impervious to rational argument founded on available evidence.Hetware 20:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The evidence has been assessed, vetted, discussed etc. (see the many archives). "Uncritical acceptance" of any source is not helpful. Peter Grey 22:16, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Another of those arguments where you have an argument without argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivory_tower)? Whatever, I would like to reference this http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/629/629/5305868.stm, any reservation? If not, any of established users who would be so kind… --Lovelight 11:45 PM 4 September 2006 (CET)

There is an article to discuss the aftermath of the September 11, 2001 attacks. Peter Grey 22:16, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

There is also a section called "Long-term effects" here, so why would we go there? --Lovelight 1:15 AM 5 September 2006 (CET)

Memorial

Is there any plans that any of the Wikipedia Adiministrators would make a memorial page for the events of that tragic day? Also will this be able to be a permanent memorial online? --82.47.145.146 21:39, 4 September 2006 (UTC)