Talk:Video games as an art form

Games i disagree in the list

I don't think Grand theft auto 5 should be on this list it feels so out of place compared to the others

I don't think Resident Evil 7 is a proper entry Lucafg74 (talk) 23:13, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

The same criterion applies to Doom, i don't think it is a work of art; otherwise also Cannibal Holocaust (a movie) is art!Lucafg74 (talk) 17:33, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

There are no intentions of doing art in Doom! Lucafg74 (talk) 17:35, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Techinical improvementa are very important, but they are not art for themselves. The first movies that implemented 3D or the cinemascope or audiotrack or high tech cameras etc. are very important movies, but non necessarily work of art. Lucafg74 (talk) 18:27, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Other games before Doom implemented FPS and 3D graphic engines, e.g. Maze 3D, Wolfstein 3D; Doom added only extreme violence and a better engine. Doom consciously stimulates the player's lower instincts. It's pure commercial speculation not aimed to deep content, narrative, design or aesthetic research. You have only to fight your way through hordes of invading demons. Its legacy is a collection of equally violent games aimed to trivial entertainment. You can think that's good, a great achievement for the entertainment industry, but it's not art! Lucafg74 (talk) 18:27, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

You have to be careful not to allow your own personal feelings color your edits. There is some good advice on this topic covered at WP:OR. The only question that you should be asking is whether or not the sources support the claims. By listing a game on the list, the implicit claim is made that the game has been considered to be a work of art by reliable sources. To check if this is true, all you need to do is to read through the source that is listed. In several cases there is no claim made in the source that the game is a work of art. Those list members should probably be removed until proper sources emerge. -Thibbs (talk) 14:51, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

I have not expressed my feelings, but a deep critical analisys. I disagree with mainstream critics claiming that Doom is a piece of art. There are not estabilished criteria for art in videogames. Many mainstream critics are ignorant about art, they judge videogames only for mass entertainment purposes. Lucafg74 (talk) 22:10, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

I was talking about arguments like "I don't think Grand theft auto 5 should be on this list it feels so out of place". How a game makes you feel should not be a consideration when contributing content to an encyclopedia that is based on reliable sources. Personal analysis and disagreement with reliable sources is fine for a blog, but it's not acceptable at Wikipedia. Imagine if someone didn't feel that humans had any impact on global warming so they removed all mention of anthropogenic influence from the article on climate change. It doesn't matter if their own personal study of the subject has led them to this conclusion, the content in Wikipedia is based on reliable sources. I take your point about the shortcomings of "mainstream" sources, but the discussion about whether these sources have the credentials to discuss art should probably be kept centralized below. -Thibbs (talk) 10:57, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Hey other guys, if modern art is art, how is doom not art compared to a walking simulator game? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolven1 (talk • contribs) 18:58, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Review of the list

I just removed Metal Gear from the list because when I read over the source that was listed I could find no mention of it being considered as a work of art. There is a lot of discussion covering its design elements that elevate it to the status of "modern game", but that's not what this list is intended to collate. I just looked at the sources for Deus-Ex as well and the closest we come is an offhand question at the start of the first source: "Why is this talked about like it's the Mona Lisa of game design?" The rest of the 4-page review is a description of enemy AI and the humorous dialog options that the game has. At no point does it corroborate the claim that the game is a work of art. The second source for Deus Ex at least covers the topic of "works of art", but it twice describes the game as falling short in that area: "...some rough edges restrain the game from becoming an irrefutable work of art." and "This is my only gripe about the game; an excellent plot could have easily become a work of art had it been produced in Japan." Given the balance of the sources, I don't think there is enough support as required by WP:V to support the claim that it is considered to be a work of art so I will remove it as well. I have no prejudice against restoring these games to the list, but it's a requirement that the sources in fact describe the game as a work of art or that the games are at least considered by art-related sources (e.g. the Museum of Modern Art, etc.) to be works of art. I think the list needs to be weeded through. -Thibbs (talk) 14:51, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Here is the diff for my removal of Deus Ex in case anyone wants to restore it with proper sourcing. Which, per WP:DUE by the way, might require the additional use of the RPGamer source to provide an important Cf. citation as well in the interest of neutrality. -Thibbs (talk) 14:56, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Among mainstream titles, Deus Ex Human Revolution has interesting artistic features concerning storytelling, writing and aesthetics. A good compromise of mass entertainment product and art, a game for mature audience. You could be interested in my analisys: https://vgartsite.wordpress.com/2017/07/21/deus-ex-human-revolution/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucafg74 (talk • contribs) 22:18, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

My concern was whether any "reliable sources" described the game as art. The source that had previously been used was "reliable" but it did not describe the game as art. Your blog is very nice, but it probably wouldn't be considered a "reliable source" by Wikipedia's standards (which you can read about at WP:RS) unless you can establish that you are a recognized expert in the field (details at WP:BLOGS). -Thibbs (talk) 22:31, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Criteria used by Wikipedia are good, they are the same used in science literature or in academies and university. But such criteria fails when applied to videogames and to mainstream magazines. The latters are not reliable sources. I cannot estabilsh myself as recognized expert, but even many mainstream critics are not experts. Simply because actually there is no foundation for expertise in videogames art field!! :-) I can only give some info about my expertise and declare my criteria in my website.Lucafg74 (talk) 22:58, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Now i'll give you a pragmatic proof of my expertise: have you played The Town of Light? Well, it is a work of art, but completely ignored by mainstream critics! You can read my analisys in my website. I cannot state my expertise, i let the others do it. I'm writing since 2015 (on Steam) innovative critical concepts about videogames art; and i have anticipated few courageous mainstream critics that only now are replaying my concepts!Lucafg74 (talk) 22:58, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand your concern here. Are you suggesting that we should add Deus Ex back to the list despite the fact that we don't have a source to support the claim? Or are you just expressing your personal opinion that the game is art? -Thibbs (talk) 23:23, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Deus Ex has some artistic features, but it's very difficult TODAY to find a reliable source underlying such features, because TODAY mainstream critics are used to approach videogames as electronic toys and virtual challenges, expecially triple A mainstream titles like Deus Ex. No, i'm not forcing to put it in the list, its artistic value is not so evident and strong because of the compromise with mass entertainment purposes. Lucafg74 (talk) 01:23, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

DX is definitely an influential game, but that's what we need to distinguish are influential games that have affected many others following, and games that are consider works of art. Also keep in mind we don't dismiss older sources like print mags, just harder to locate and use. --MASEM (t) 01:30, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm referring to Deus Ex Human Revolution. And i underlined TODAY because i think that in the next future videogames will have a better artistic and academic foundation. Well, now changing subject, i think there are a few titles that should not be in the list. I'm just trying to help with some suggestions, you are free to agree or not. Silent Hill 2, at least it would need some reliable sources Music VR, not suitable, no sources Yume Nikki, not suitable, no sources The Endless Forest could be ok, but it needs reliable sources Mother 3, not suitable Dwarf Fortress, not suitable Amnesia, not suitable Papers, Please, not suitable Hyper Light Drifter, not suitable Hollow Knight, not suitable Doom, not suitable Grand Theft Auto V, not suitable Lucafg74 (talk) 03:39, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Some of these could certainly be removed, but please be aware that the standards that are applied to these entries must be applied consistently to all entries including Firewatch, Beyond Eyes, The Unfinished Swan, What Remains of Edith Finch, etc. Currently the inclusion criteria require direct support for the claim provided by reliable sources. So the list should be weeded to remove entries that either don't have an RS as a source or whose source does not directly corroborate the claim that the game is art. The entries which do seem to be supported by reliable sources but that just don't feel right to us as individuals cannot be held to a higher standard than every other entry, though. So if you require an artistic analysis of Doom using established artistic criteria by an internationally recognized art expert in order to it to be considered suitable for inclusion, then these same requirements must also be applied to Firewatch, Beyond Eyes, The Unfinished Swan, and What Remains of Edith Finch. -Thibbs (talk) 10:58, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Yes, as said we have to respect wikipedia criteria. But before erasing any entry, we have to allow a research for reliable sources sustaining the art of such titles. Yes, such research should be made before any insertion in the list, but first of all we have to estabilish the criteria for the reliable sources. Just now you are claiming for reliable sources explicictly underlining artistic features of the game. But what words or phrases are to be accepted?? Not all critics are willing to use words like "it's an artwork", they sound uncritical!! E.g. in my articles i'm not used to explicit and measure how many art there is in a game! Most of critics tend to underline some features. As said many critics inappropriately uses "work of art". E.g. if a game has a certain visual beauty, they say that's a piece of art! Masem doesn't agree, and i think he is right! Lucafg74 (talk) 12:00, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Could we use BAFTA AWARDS as reliable sources?vLucafg74 (talk) 12:24, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Luckily Firewatch, Beyond Eyes, The Unfinished Swan, and What Remains of Edith Finch are all games whose artistic value is recently sustained by many reliable sources. If we decide to restrain reliable sources criteria, i'm able to find reliable sources underlining explicitly their art with clear words. Lucafg74 (talk) 12:10, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

I agree that we have to tighten the criteria for inclusion, and I'm open to alternatives to the strict explicit RS claim standard that I favor as long as it doesn't lead to overly interpretive personal analyses or synthesis. The BAFTA idea may be something we could incorporate. But rather than spreading this conversation across several subsections, let's try to centralize some of these discussions. I think a better place to discuss this specific issue (i.e. reworking the inclusion criteria) would be in the section below (here). -Thibbs (talk) 12:15, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Oh no, forget the BAFTA. It's impossible to distinguish artistic value of the several categories. BAFTA have a good sense for art, but artistic games are rewarded also in not-artistic categories; there is only one explicit artistic category, we could only refer to it. Today there is not an explicit artistic prize in videogames industry! Mass entertainment rules! Lucafg74 (talk) 12:24, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Do we need to tighten up the criteria for this list?

Given several recent additions or attempts at additions, or removals, I wonder if we need to have a strong criteria for inclusion on this list. Maybe even to the point where an entry needs to be proposed with supporting sources and gain consensus to include?

The reason I say this is that it is relatively easy for many games to search on the game name and "work of art" and find a source even from a reliable one. That really doesn't prove a game has industry-wide recognition of being a work of art, and this list should be much more precise that a game really is broadly considered a work of art, rather than piece-parting the comments from individuals.

Something like the MOMA list would be a sign that shows this industry recognizition and there might be other factors too. But there can be other games that don't have that recognition yet. Take an example of That Dragon, Cancer. Google searching on the name and "work of art" gives a good number of RS hits, including outside the gaming sphere, so I would argue this has industry-wide recognizition, but I think we should have a process to review an entry, gain consensus, and archive that on this talk page so there's no question why something was added - and for the same reason why something was not. --MASEM (t) 16:27, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

If we were to weed through the list and mercilessly remove entries that don't describe the game as a work of art then we might already be more on track. I think there is a slow proliferation of borderline cases where the game is compared to an established artform - like a modern remake of Pong might be called "minimalist" in its artistry. There is a temptation to leave such an entry on the list because minimalism is a form of art and the source supports the assertion that the game employs visual minimalism as an artistic technique. In the list we see several examples like that - e.g. Doom compared to splatterhouse cinema, Max Payne compared to neo-noir, etc. It would make sense to me to tighten the requirements so that no interpretation was necessary. Does the source describe a game as reminiscent of cubism? And is cubism a form of art? Maybe so, but to be listed on this Wikipedia list the source should explicitly say somewhere that the game is a work of art. I'm open to other ways of tightening the inclusion criteria as well. Ultimately it may make the most sense to split the list off into a list article and just link to it from this article on the concept. -Thibbs (talk) 00:14, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

I definitely think we can establish criteria; some would be automatic inclusion like the MOMA games, but others would start with "have X sources called it a work of art or similar language", as then to have a discussion of how strong that conviction is. RSes often say "this game is like a work of art" in passing which is bad form for us. I really would like to have a situation here that each game that would be on the trimmed list is one that we can have editors search through the archives to understand why it is included and what was not included. We definitely want to make clear "arthouse games" != "works of art", nor are games with great art necessarily works of art, in terms of the video gam where it is the entire experience and sum of the parts rather than just visuals or the like. --MASEM (t) 01:00, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Yeah I agree with that. Cross- or inter-industry recognition such as recognition from the art world (e.g. MOMA) does greatly strengthen the case for inclusion. And I agree that simple in-passing RS mentions of a game as "like a work of art" that don't cover the work-of-art nature of the game as a whole are poor candidates for the list. A case by case evaluation might be a little difficult to accomplish while being fully objective, but to the extent that it's possible that would be the ideal situation. I used to check the sourcing for each new addition to the list, but I've lapsed in my attention to this task. We definitely need to re-evaluate. I've invited the IP editor who has recently been adding games to the list to join our discussion and I hope he does. Some of the comments left in other threads gives me the impression that the user needs help with some of our guidelines. -Thibbs (talk) 10:48, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

MOMA selected a few videogames for their design, not for art intended as sublime expression. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzGjO5aHShQ Lucafg74 (talk) 02:26, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Yes, as said we have to respect wikipedia criteria. But before erasing any entry, we have to allow a research for reliable sources sustaining the art of such titles. Yes, such research should be made before any insertion in the list, but first of all we have to estabilish the criteria for the reliable sources. Just now you are claiming for reliable sources explicictly underlining artistic features of the game. But what words or phrases are to be accepted?? Not all critics are willing to use words like "it's an artwork", they sound uncritical!! E.g. in my articles i'm not used to explicit and measure how many art there is in a game! Most of critics tend to underline some features. As said many critics inappropriately uses "work of art". E.g. if a game has a certain visual beauty, they say that's a piece of art! Masem doesn't agree, and i think he is right! Lucafg74 (talk) 12:00, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Could we use BAFTA AWARDS as reliable sources? Lucafg74 (talk) 12:24, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

We could restrain reliable sources to a few critics specialized in discovering artistic side of videogames. That's what happens in cinema and in other estabilished forms of art. Reliable sources are not generical magazines, but specifical critics with high expertise in art. What do you think? Lucafg74 (talk) 12:57, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Recently this list has gained more attention even thanks to my promotion on my social channels (steam, facebook, twitter, website). I have an audience of more than 3500 people sensible to videogames art. So i'm not surprised that more and more people are going to add new entries! :-) We have to estabilish clear, shared but tight "scientific" criteria for the list. Referring to specific art critics and experts is what happens in other estabilished forms of art as Cinema. We should select specific art critics writing for reliable sources. Lucafg74 (talk) 14:03, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

There are various new-media-art-centric outlets that might be of use if we are to adopt this standard. Rhizome springs to mind, as do authors like Ian Bogost and Matteo Bittanti. In some ways this begins to drift much closer to our article on art games (where we have frank art theorists like Tiffany Holmes, Celia Pearce, and Rebecca Cannon) than on "games as art". And your point about MOMA is also well taken. Even explicitly art-oriented organizations like modern art museums may not be strong enough to support inclusion of some entries on the list. In the end you may be correct that there are simply no modern sources strong enough to corroborate the claim that the games on the list are properly considered as art, although that does suggest that we should reconsider whether we want a list in this article at all.

If we are brutally honest with ourselves, the current list has been developed in a pretty ad-hoc and subjective manner and as mentioned it has the potential for growth that could overwhelm the main article. This article is intended to be about the concept of games as art rather than to function as an index of all artistic video games and video game artworks. Few other video game genre articles on Wikipedia have embedded lists like this (see e.g. Casual game, Serious game, etc.) and those that do tend to either split out their lists (e.g. Christian video game) or are riddled with problems and have big cleanup templates displayed at the top (see e.g. Crossover game, Traditional game, etc.). In fact even the list here has a cleanup tag. If we don't want to just delete the list, and if no sources can be found that meet our standards for expertise in art and so we are forced to continue with the current loosely-enforced "explicit claim by established RS" standard, then I would suggest moving the list to its own article (a list article like List of Christian video games) as a half measure. Thoughts? -Thibbs (talk) 14:50, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorta in the same position as Thibbs. I'd rather see us TNT the current list (The rest of the article is fine) and then establish criteria like we have on other lists that involve subjective opinions (like games known for negative reception). The titles on this should be few and far between, keeping in mind that we have the art-house games page for games that were developed to be evocative like art, though not necessary considered highly selective "works of art". --MASEM (t) 15:40, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Science is founded upon continuosly empirical proofing by scientific community. I'm a physics teacher, i know how science works. Art critic has no empirical proofing foundation, can only be founded around critical discussions among academic community. Discussions concerning comparative analisys with estabilished forms of art and historical experience in the field of art critic. That's all. Videogames as art TODAY has no academic foundation, there is no community of experts or critics specialized in videogames art. For now this list has to be founded upon shared criteria stated by wikipedia community. We could discuss about reliability of the sources. That's my intention. As said, i don't think mainstream magazines centered around needs of mass entertainment market and industry are ALWAYS reliable sources. So we could identify a few critics specialised in reviewing artistic games. Lucafg74 (talk) 20:40, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

It's wrong to give up the list. We are pioneers of the new wind of art in videogames. Obviously when you are starting something from scratch, without external references, it is always not easy. We have not to give up. We could try to involve other experts, other reliable and recognized critics, to found a new community of videogames art experts on wikipedia Lucafg74 (talk) 20:48, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Ok, i agree to move the list to a page of its own. Lucafg74 (talk) 21:15, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Rewriting advertisement-style content

@Masem: sorry for not being clearer in discussing how the contents of this page need to be rewritten. Some examples of ad-sounding include the blurbs for Contrast, Brothers, Vanishing of Ethan Carter, and Virginia. Perhaps a better tag would have been the encyclopedic tone rewrite, as there are also issues with formatting (Papo & Yo, Cat Lady, Contrast, and Unfinished Swan), general consistency (should blurbs be basic summaries of the game, references to their reviews, characterizations of their nature as art games, or some combo? whichever the case, I believe it should be consistent across each/most entries), and citations (I would argue that each entry should feature a reference to a third-party specifically characterizing the given game as an art game to maintain objectivity and precision for the list). What do you think? --Paradoxasauruser (talk) 13:45, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Ah, okay, I have added the "advert section" template to the list so that its clear thats the section of concern. --MASEM (t) 14:22, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Shared criteria

Some of the reliable sources in the list are not so reliable when talking about art. Mainstream magazines are centered around market needs, are strongly influenced by big companies; they make abuse of term "art". If you want to talk about art you have to refer to estabilished forms of art: cinema and animation, painting or drawing, music, literature, drama, etc. etc. And also to estabilished and recognized artworks: e.g. Citizen Kane by Welles, Othello by Shakespeare, Guernica by Picasso, Rachmaninoff's Piano concerto n. 3, etc. etc. There are not estabilished artistic criteria for videogames. Mainstream magazine claim for art even when there is no art! Only a comparative analisys referring to recognized forms of art could be helpful to estabilish shared artistic criteria. You can identify three main features that characterize art: aesthetics, contents and storytelling. Storytelling has to be intended in its wider meaning: artworks must have something to express, to transmit, to tell; also more abstract forms of art, such as music, implement a sort of implicit and abstract storytelling. Just as other recognized artworks, an artistic game has to ensure a unique, coherent and holistic experience where contents, interactivity, gameplay, aesthetics, storytelling, etc., they must intersect inextricably so that the emerging result is greater than the sum of the parts. Masterpieces can be recognized for innovation and experimentation opening new frontiers. I wrote some articles about art and videogames you could find interesting: https://vgartsite.wordpress.com/artgames/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucafg74 (talk • contribs) 21:45, 30 July 2017 (UTC) Lucafg74 (talk) 21:58, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

It would help if you could be more specific. Which sources are you challenging? -Thibbs (talk) 22:11, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Mainstream magazines: Kotaku, Multiplayer, Polygon, Gamespot, IGN, Everyeye, etc. etc. Videogames have not a reliable academic and art critic foundation yet. You can find a few good critics with a certain sensibility for art, and so many critics ignorant of art approaching videogames as electronic toys and virtual challenges. Mainstream magazines are strongly influenced by big companies interests. And big companies generally, with few exceptions, are not searching for art in videogames, but only for low or mediun quality mass entertainment. Even for movies is not so different, but Cinema has a well estabilished academic and artistic foundation, popular recognition of Cinema as seventh art is a fact; critics and people can easily distinguish a low quality mass entertainment movie production from an authorial artistic movie production; not the same for videogames. So, today ordinary crtics are generally ignorant of art and cannot distinguish a low quality mass entertainment product from an artistic product. They often look only at technical skills, visual beauty and mainly at challenges. Mainstream critics invented the derogatory term Walking Simulator, because unable to recognize the artistical skills of games as Dear Esther, Gone Home, Firewatch, The Path, Beyond Eyes, The Unfinished Swan, What Remains of Edith Finch, etc. They are not ready for art in videogames yet.Lucafg74 (talk) 22:41, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Of the sources you've listed: (1) I don't find any mention of Everyeye in the article at all, (2) the only use of Multiplayer.it seems to have been added by you in this edit, and (3) Kotaku, Polygon, Gamespot, and IGN have all been vetted for general use by experienced editors at WP:VG/RS.

I understand the argument that you are making, but I find it strange that you would express concern that mainstream video game magazines are unable to recognize art in video games when the sources that appear in this article all seem to recognize art in video games. For example, Kotaku is the source used to support the inclusion of The Path in the list. Furthermore, it seems to be your position that non-art-oriented sources cannot be considered reliable on artistic claims, but then the alternative would be to remove the list entirely. To be honest I wouldn't really have a problem with that since it is sprawling, a frequent target for original research, and because it is difficult to maintain. But is that what you had in mind here? Or did you have some reliable art-related sources that could be used to better support the claims made in the list? What is your end goal?

For now I think it would be appropriate to remove the one entry based on Multiplayer.it given that it does not appear at WP:VG/RS and given that you are the one who originally added and are now challenging it. We should seek input from others, though, before removing all entries based on Kotaku, Polygon, Gamespot, and IGN, or indeed removing the entire list. Do you have any thoughts on this issue, Masem? -Thibbs (talk) 00:08, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

I generally agree with Thibbs, but I do agree I think we need to trim out entries where the game is not clearly called out as an example of a work of art for VGs, or a masterpiece, or similar language, regardless of source. --MASEM (t) 00:39, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

As said, there are few good critics with a certain sensibility for art even in mainstream magazines. We are witnessing an artistic evolution of videogames, so critics are adjusting their criteria. It's a dynamical process. In the future we'll have more an more reliable sources and videogames will have the same academic and artistic foundation as cinema. I'm saying that recognition of art in videogames has not started from mainstream critics. And yet TODAY, mainstream critics tend to understimate art in videogames. Just look at metacritic or others reviews collectors: most of artistic games have ratings lower than low quality mass entertainment titles. It's as Fast & Fuorios had a bigger rating of 400 Blows by Truffaut; that's impossible in any serious pubblication about cinema.... Lucafg74 (talk) 01:46, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

And no... obviously i'm not saying to remove titles in the list whose art is sustained by mainstream magazines. As said there is an evolving process and a few critics are more sensible to art even in such magazines. Even art is going to have a market in videogames because of the evolution of audience. Children growth while playing Pac Man and Space Invaders are now adult and are demanding for more mature games able to give deep sensations as best movies. For now referring to mainstream magazines considered reliable sources is the only criterion adopted by wikipedia, so we have to respect it. I'm going to change my reference to multiplayer.it in The Cat Lady edit, but in my country it is considered a reliable source. And i'm going to search for reliable sources for The Town of Light; i think i will not find them for now; but i'm sure in the next future many critics will change their minds about such title. Lucafg74 (talk) 02:09, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

In the end i found the today only one reliable source claiming explicitly for the art of The Town of Light!! That's the proof that artistic evolution of videogames market is running fast! Lucafg74 (talk) 12:15, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Move/remove list

I would recommend either deleting the "List of artistic video games", or moving it to a separate page. It's clearly promotional for some of these games. I'm not sure how it differs from Art_game#List_of_arthouse_games. Power~enwiki (talk) 20:45, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Yes, let's move the list to a separate page. But then we have to define tight "scientific" shared criteria and reliable sources. Lucafg74 (talk) 21:19, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

• This sounds good to me. I won't be able to be too involved for the next several days due to work, but I'll try to look in from time to time to see how things are progressing. -Thibbs (talk) 03:55, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

• Arthouse games are those where the creator set out to make a game they felt would be a work of art, and typically emphasized by some unique production value that stands out. Games that are considered works of art should be those seen as masterpieces by critics (not the developer) that actually are recognized as the pinnacle of the video game medium. This list should arguably be very very short. --MASEM (t) 12:51, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Masem for shrinking the list, but TODAY videogames masterpieces according to mainstream critics are NOT necessarily artistic titles! TODAY mainstream critics put in poleposition titles oriented to mass entertainment not necessarily artistic. See reviews aggregators as Metacritic or GameRanking. We should define very narrow criteria on our own, using comparative analisys with other forms of art and making a comparison with other specialised critics. We are founders, pioneers, we have to create a community of videogames art critics from scratch. We have to involve the most sensible critics and academics. Wikipedia could be a good aggregator! At first we have to start discussions about art criteria! Lucafg74 (talk) 00:04, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

We will found Les Cahiers des Jeux Videos (a pun for Les Cahiers du Cinema founded by Truffaut) :-) Lucafg74 (talk) 00:20, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Y Done. -Thibbs (talk) 01:00, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Lack of philosophical support for the argument that game is an art form.

There were many historical facts on the struggles through which games were accepted as art in legal terms. However, there should be more support from critics and philosophy from professionals that are familiar with the field. The article focused more on criticism and interpretations that support the idea that games are not art. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 8.41.197.223 (talk) 19:30, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Kotaku's Patricia Hernandez wrote this inspiring note regarding the unique values of interactivity for shaping games as an art form, explaining one notable section of the interactive fiction Photopia. It's not strictly a third-party source, but I think we can use it as an expert WP:SPS. The point it advances is relevant to counter the criticism by Rogert Evert, that gameplay cannot be artistic on itself. Diego (talk) 14:39, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia Assignment

Starting with the beginning, I think it would be in everyone's best interest to define what an "indie game" is. Giving them a link is great, but it would be nice to just have a simple explanation afterwards. Next, during the Empathy Game section, it would be nice to quote other games that are known for dragging the player through an emotional experience, like The Static Speaks My Name or Don't Take This Risk. While reading I though your Controversy was strangely placed, that in might of been better to put the critics after or move it down to be above the critics. In the Other Notable critics some words repeat so much to the point of boredom. Last note, I believe the title should be capitalized to say "Video Games as an Art Form".