Talk:Odoacer

WP:MilHist Assessment

Though not nearly as long as some other "B-class" articles, this is more than just a good start. You've got pictures and a succession box, and as far as I know you've said more or less all that can be said about this figure. LordAmeth 17:01, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I tried to remove the inadequate word "Barbarian" from the succession box but the entire box disappeared. :( Can someone place the usefull succession box back but without the word "Barbarian"! Please. Thank You!

In the 'Death' section, should you not replace 'Sparkle' with 'Ravenna'? Pietro

A rescinded promise?

I see this:

Orestes promised them a third of the Italic peninsula if they led the revolt against Emperor Nepos.

I've never read anything to suggest the demand for one-third of Italy stemmed from a broken promise made by Orestes. It's plausible, of course, but Gibbon (never one to overlook broken promises and betrayals) doesn't mention it in the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. Do we have a source?--Idols of Mud 17:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Map "showing Odoacer's kingdom and its neighbors"

The map shows the entire Eastern Hemisphere. If I zoom in really hard, I can see Odoacer's Kingdom and its neighbors, but I have to look for it, as it's not highlighted in any way. Is it possible to find a more focused and less colorful map? I don't think this one is very helpful. It's the equivalent of adding a complex map of the United States with the caption "Map showing Delaware and its neighbors" to the article on Delaware. ---Sluzzelin talk 19:10, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I removed the map now. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:39, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Restoring Map

I'm restoring the map that shows the Eastern Hemisphere in 476 AD, which shows Odoacer's Kingdom. When you look at the actual map, you don't have to "zoom in really hard" to see Odoacer's Kingdom. Besides, the map is part of a series, and I will provide a more focused map when it's ready. Until then, why remove the only map that shows the actual Kingdom? Thomas Lessman (talk) 03:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, I have to click on the map twice, the hardest zoom possible on my computer, in order to see it, and if I don't know where to look for it, finding it isn't obvious (as explained above). I won't remove it again myself, however. The more focused map will be an improvement and very welcome! ---Sluzzelin talk 15:58, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Sluzzelin. I'm actually working on some corrections for some other maps in the series right now, and I'm waiting for some more feedback regarding the 476 map. Take a look at the current map when you get a chance and let me know if you see any errors. If you do, let me know by leaving a message on my talk page, including any source info and how I can fix the map. It might be a few more weeks before I can upload the a more focused map of 476 AD, but I'll definitely do it. Thomas Lessman (talk) 17:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Son

Is it true Odoacer wanted to make his son Roman emperor?Greutungen (talk) 12:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)greutungen

Fate of Moorish and Gaulish parts of the Western Empire

The Western and the Eastern Roman Empire by 476

According to the map on the left, at the time Odoacer became ruler of Roman Italy, the Western Empire also had Moorish and Gaulish regions. How did rule transition from the Empire to the new rulers? 118.208.238.98 (talk) 02:03, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

This is one of the problems with describing Romulus Augustus as "the last Roman Emperor," or even as emperor at all. By this time in Roman history, it was no longer enough to be proclaimed by troops. You had to be recognized by the OTHER co-emperor. Romulus wasn't in his brief usurpation. His father and he also never managed to gain allegiance from any part of the empire outside of the Italian Peninsular that was its cultural and economic heart - another indicator of legitimacy. Instead Julius Nepos, the man they rebelled against, re-established himself in Dalmatia and continued to rule that rich province and receive recognition from the autonomous regions in Gaul and North Africa until his death four years later - recognized as the legitimate emperor not only by Constantinople, but also by Odoacer (even if it was mostly a matter of formal lip service.) Emperor Zeno did not accept the request of the Roman Senate (most but not all historians assume that Odoacer was the mover of behind the action) that the western subdivision of the empire be abolished and Zeno rule as sole emperor (from safely distant Constantinople) until after Nepo's death (at which time, Odoacer made a show of demonstrating that he had been Nepos' vassal.) The notion that Romulus' tentative possession of Italy made him "last emperor" was promoted by outmoded 18th century scholarship (like Gibbons) who looked at history with racial and ethnic lens and wanted to draw sharp (and false) lines between the "noble Romans" and the "savage barbarians" and between "our noble Roman ancestors" and "the decadent Eastern Empire."

By the way, the region in Gaul is referred to by historians as "The Domain of Soissons" and there is a wiki article on it. It was cut off and essentially autonomous from sometime earlier, but continued to view itself as a province. The leadership (Dux) there declined to pay homage to Romulus Augustus and refused to accept Odoacer's legitimization. They cut relations with Zeno, but continued to claim allegiance to Nepos until his death. In Morocco, the area was still Roman EMpire because it was excluded from the treaty granting the Vandals most of North Africa, but effective control ad ended in the 3rd Century anyway and the area was ruled by Berber kings who paid formal deference to Rome (including Nepos) now and again, but mostly regarded themselves as independent. That neither remnant recognized Romulus Augustus during the brief usruption and that they paid lip service (as Odoacer did) to Nepo thereafter iwas a legal boon to Nepos, but without functional effect. His direct rule of Dalamatia, a province that was only a bit less prosperous than Italy in this period (and closer to the real power in the East) was really the basis for his ability to maintain his title in more than pretense for another few years. TheCormac (talk) 18:00, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Not a King of Italy

Odoacer was not a king of Italy. Italy didn't exist. He was merely a "rex", notably this is the first occasion in the west where the title was not tied to a nationality and he did it, we suppose, because he was not king merely of the Goths, but of all people in the area he controlled. 138.162.128.52 (talk) 12:22, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

German or Hun?

Robert L. Reynolds and Robert S. Lopez argue in their article Odoacer: German or Hun? in The American Historical Review Vol. 52, No. 1, Oct., 1946 that Odoacer could have been a Hun or most likely was a Hun. They say that the Germanic background was forced upon him by German philologists etc. Now I know that the article was written way back in 1946, but nowadays there are still many, many uncertainties regarding the peoples in the Late Antiquity. I was wondering how the article of Robert L. Reynolds and Robert S. Lopez is seen by historians these days. The concincing part in their article in my opinion is that they manage to at least fill a gap left by the German philologists. Whether what they put in that gap is crap or not, I'm not sure. Some initial searching on Turkish etymologies seems to jibe with their claims. How do historians these days look at their article? 81.68.255.36 (talk) 12:10, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

5th-century Italian people

This category should be removed for the fact that he was not an Italian. I mean first of all, Italy as a whole country did not exist until 1861 and most importantly, he was either a Hun or one of the Germanic people, therefore not an Italian and can't be placed in the Italian people category. Norum 20:50, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

a bit weaselly

"He is considered the first non-Roman to ever have ruled all of Italy": well, was he, or was he not? We wouldn't say "George Washington is considered the first President of the United States." Now, if the claim is debatable, it's a different matter. If there are other figures who might be considered the first non-Roman to rule all Italy, there needs to be a little paragraph at the appropriate point in the article discussing that, and why it can't be stated as simple fact. If this is not a contested point, then it should be stated: "He was the first non-Roman to rule over all Italy." Cynwolfe (talk) 17:28, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Some kind of qualification is needed here. One could argue that the first "non-Roman" was one of the Roman Emperors, Maximinus Thrax, who is portrayed in the contemporary sources as a barbarian. Another possible candidate was the Patricius Ricimer, who was the actual power in Rome during the third quarter of the 5th century, & prior to Odoacer. (Then there is the claim that the Popes of the 7th century & later were the first Roman powers to rule over much of Italy -- see Caesaropapism.) Probably the wording in this article should be something along the lines of "first ruler of all of Italy following the extinction of the Roman Empire" -- although the fact he was considered a barbarian needs to be mentioned in the lead paragraph. -- llywrch (talk) 21:53, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, despite the slurs of his enemies, Maximinus was certainly a Roman citizen; but if you look at de facto power, even before Ricimer there was Stilicho. But Odoacer was the first barbarian ruler without hiding behind a puppet and who assumed as ground of legitimacy a new title, rex. Regarding the proposed wording it just can't stand, I'm afraid, as the notion of extinction of the empire is at the very least problematic, and there isn't a modern historian who would agree I believe. Regarding the "barbarian" in the lead, I agree, but I'm afraid it might meet opposition due to political correctness (never mind modern historians don't seem to have any problems with the term in this context).Aldux (talk) 12:47, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree that language regarding "extinction" would be even more problematic and misleading. Describing him as "King" or "Rex" is also not so simple and requires a lot of exposition (as he was not consistent in this.) The question of "non-Roman," is also slippery. What makes a Roman? Foederati were not citizens, but were sometimes (especially by the fifth century) more culturally Roman than some who were citizens. By all accounts, Odoacer was very Romanized. The idea of "blood" in the medieval/early modern sense is not much help. For one thing, it is anachronistic. (For the Roman's it was culture, not ethnicity that defined barbarians.) Many emperors were not of Latini descent (of even descended from other tribal grouping of the Italian Peninsula.) The best you could say is that he was "the first non-Roman citizen," which is pretty weak. I suggest removing the phrase completely in favor of a more nuanced narrative that focuses on the political rather than the ethnic. The notion that this aspect of Odoacer was of millennial importance seems to me a legacy of outmoded racialist thinking of the 18th-20th century best left behind.TheCormac (talk) 17:13, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

You're right there, Cormac; I was a bit sloppy in writing "'first ruler of all of Italy following the extinction of the Roman Empire'". And it is also true that most of the peoples who lived inside the pre-410 borders of the Western Roman Empire did somehow think of themselves as Roman citizens at the time; for example, the Emperors in Constantinople did use this to their advantage in diplomatic overtures to the Franks & Burgunds in the early 6th century. What had happened with the deposition of Romulus Augustus was that Odoacer attempted to simplify a very confused political situation. Assuming power in Italy, he was faced with one Emperor no one outside Italy recognized (Romulus), another who was recognized in Constantinople but possibly no where else (Julius Nepos) & would at best be a nuisance to him, & a third in power at Constantinople (Zeno). So Odoacer by returning the imperial insignia to Zeno, he made the offer of ruling Italy directly as a king, much as Alaric ruled Hispania & part of Gaul as king of the Visigoths, & Gundobad another part of Gaul as king of the Burgunds. This official recognition would have helped legitimize Odoacer's rule in Rome: he had to deal with not only the remnants of the Imperial bureaucracy in his domain, but also the Roman Senate which was still a powerful corporate force. Zeno craftily responded his offer by saying, in effect, "What do you mean, you need no Emperor? There's Julius Nepos in Dalmatia. If you reject Julius, then you must not be a legitimate ruler of Italy." A.H.M. Jones discusses Odoacer's -- as well as Theodoric's after him -- constitutional position in a 1960 Journal of Roman Studies article, which defines the precarious position as ruler of Italy both rulers had. Odoacer played nice with the Roman Senate & the Roman church because either could decisively aid a rebellion against him; this obviously lay behind Theodoric's execution of Boethius in the following century. When Theodoric the Great invaded Italy, it is worth noting that Odoacer received almost no support from his kingdom beyond his armed followers & his Roman favorites. If I could interject my opinion into this article, it would be that Odoacer was tolerated, perhaps feared, but definitely not loved.

As for Odoacer's non-Roman/barbarian identity, it was significant for his contemporaries; he was an outsider, born & raised outside the Roman world. Consider Theodoric the Great, who was born & raised in the Roman world -- he spent part of his youth at the Imperial court as a hostage -- yet he was considered by the Romans as a barbarian. If Theodoric couldn't be accepted as a Roman, then Odoacer had no hope of gaining such recognition. The Romans of the Late Empire were very conscious of whether someone was a Roman or not. Eugippius practically describes Odoacer as a "skin-clad barbarian" in his hagiography of St. Severinus; one can't be any more of an outsider in Roman eyes than to be garbed in hides. Further, every inscription mentioning Odoacer describes him as king of an alien ethnic group, sometimes adding "of Italy" to that. Odoacer's reign is an important step in the disappearance of the Roman Empire in the west, which came to a definite end no later than Justinian's wars of conquest in the mid fifth-century. Exactly what effect his rule had in the process, this I agree needs to be further defined; but I'm hoping that the Wiki process of discussion & review will get us the explanation this article needs. -- llywrch (talk) 20:10, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

A final note

Today I found a photocopy I had made of the article on Odoacer from the Realencyclopädie der Classischen Altertumswissenschaft, & after carefully reviewing its contents as well as my poor German allowed me I was pleasantly surprised to discover that as of my latest contribution this article covers practically as much about this man as that authoritative reference does, with the addition of some of the scholarship since that article was published in the 1930s. I write this not to boast -- okay, I am a little -- but to state I don't know what more of importance could be added to this article. I am done with it; now it's time for the rest of you to continue to improve on it. Good luck. -- llywrch (talk) 06:35, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Pronunciation of his name?

Could someone tell us how to pronounce his name? I don't mean how he or his nearest and dearest pronounced it, but how do literate historians pronounce it when they get together and chew these things over? Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.36.212.164 (talk) 11:10, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Activities in 463 in Gallia? - hard to believe that Odoaker and Odovacrius were the same person

The article states that ... a number of battles fought by King Childeric I of the Franks, Aegidius, Count Paul, and one "Adovacrius" or "Odovacrius". If this is an account of Aegidius' victory over the Visigoths, otherwise known from the Chronicle of Hydatius, then this occurred in 463. Reynolds and Lopez in their article mentioned above, suggested that this "Adovacrius" or "Odovacrius" may be the same person as the future king of Italy... This seems very hard to believe. Main reason: Odoaker was a son of Edeko, a member of the inner circle of Attila and maybe himself (partly) Hunnic, and a Skirian princess. He grew up in Pannonia. Only twelve years before in 451 there was a massive battle, the battle of Chalons, where he and his clanmembers fought among others the Romans, the Visigoths and the Salian Franks. It seems highly unlikely that the Visigoths would have chosen a close Hunnic ally and former enemy to lead them in battle in 463, especially noting that the Visigoths were normally led in battle by members of their own nobility. Secondly this "Odovacrius" as a leader of several Saxon warbands is also highly unlikely. He was non-Saxon and probably knew nothing of naval warfare. That's enough to rule this possibility out. That leaves only one possibility. Odovacrius (Odoaker) as a leader of an invasion army (comprised of elements of several tribes) around 463 that in the aftermath of the collapse of the Hunnic empire choose to, or were forced to invade Gallia, were they were defeated. In theory possible but I have never read about such an invasion. More likely scenario is that "Odovacrius" was a Saxon leader of a few warbands and that he was a different person then Odoaker. JRB-Europe (talk) 00:53, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Did Odoacer actually exist?

Is Odoacer a fabrication? What are the primary sources that prove Odoacer's existence? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.161.200.5 (talk) 22:34, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Odoacer and the Byzantines

It seems to me that the presence of the Huns, especially in the Macedonia-Hungarian Plain area, posed a huge threat to the Byzantines, and the Lombards and Ostrogoths (aka Kievan Rus?) were invited in by the Byzantines to counter this threat.

Elements of both these groups seemed to have moved into the area about the same time, not a wise thing to do, unless you are positioning your tribe to fight the Huns, whose tactics are adapted to the open, steppe-like terrain found there.

The Byzantines used German soldiers, to the tune of nearly fifty percent of their army, at this time, and inviting the combative and notoriously militant Lombards into the area would have been an extension of this policy of using Germans for military ends. The same invitation, extended to the Ostrogoths would have brought in not only fighters but administrators; the Ostrogoths by their own historiography were said to have been invited into the region of the Pripyat area of the Dniepper River by the Slavs who sought their services in bringing about an end to Slavic tribal warfare.

Okay, none of this is in writing, but Nordic, or Germanic peoples didn't write as much as the Latins and Greeks, by any stretch of the imagination. What I'm getting at is that Odoacer may have been a Germanic, but particularly a Lombardic figure, and the Italy he ruled was actually secret, surreptitiously or covertly given to the Lombards by the Byzantines as payment in land for their efforts in weakening the Huns to the point where the lands of the Eastern Empire were spared Hunnic attacks, just as the Goths were paid in gold for the same services, and then later when troubles broke out in Italy between the Lombards and the Romans on a land-use and ownership level, the Goths were sent into Italy to settle that matter.

Now, this interpretation makes sense, I think you'll agree.

Statue?

Does anyone know where this statue is located and whether it is a statue of Odoacer?

http://www.euratlas.net/photos/time/5th_century/odoacre.html

Kortoso (talk) 21:16, 6 September 2017 (UTC)