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Complicated situation in Macedonia and Wiki

Hi Jimbo, today I observed Balkan news and find maybe interesting matter for Wiki users/admins. relating to situation in Macedonia [1], namely Macedonian Parliament will vote for Constitutional amendments with two-thirds majority. What was stunning for me is that despite of the unanimous call of US and EU leaders it seams that Members of Macedonian Parliament will probably not reach 80 votes necessary for passage of amendments and the number of them is exactly as predicted by user Operahome two weeks ago, i.e. aprox. 75 Members of Macedonian Parliament. Looks Operahome arguments were relevant after all.Алфа БК (talk) 11:08, 19 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Predictions of the future are seldom relevant for Wikipedia, however insightful they may be. It is not for us to speculate or try to influence events, it is for us to record what reliable sources have said. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimbo Wales (talk • contribs) 13:45, 19 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Jimbo for your prompt answer. I agree with your opinion completely. Still, under circumstances, I would strongly recommend that someone create BLP for I.J., since it appears to be crucially relevant person who actually decisively influence the political situation in Macedonia and by saying that I mean broader European and US affairs in Balkans. Sometimes, as you may agree, absence of any action can influence (historical) events too.Алфа БК (talk) 14:12, 19 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hm, change of Constitution will go in 3 phases. First, decision to change Constitution with two-thirds majority, than vote for amendments with the simple majority, then third phase is final adoption of amendments again with two-thirds majority. As I was informed minutes ago Parliament voted with two-thirds majority, and this is a major victory for prime-minister Zoran Zaev. But, as was explained 2 weeks ago by prof. I.J. or his assistant here ( I assume user:Operahome) there is a long way to an end the process of Constitutional change because finally the President of Macedonia Gjorge Ivanov will never sign the adopted of amendments, and again agreement between Macedonia and Greece will not enter into force..178.223.41.197 (talk) 21:25, 19 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes there are three steps, and the third is an adoption of amendments with 2/3 majority, with 80 or perhaps 81 vote. If its needed 81 vote, than they will have to vote with a different majority on the final adoption and that would be apparent blatant embarrassment, because either they were wrong first time when voted with 80, or second time (81) i.e. or both times with only 80 lawmakers majority.Алфа БК (talk) 17:44, 20 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I will not give further comments on victory of Zaev. It was reached with 80 Members of Parliament and all international community is celebrating that. When I spoke with prof. I.J. who actually participated in writing / creating of the first Macedonian Constitution he told me that unlike some other Constitutions, Macedonian constitutional procedures requires NOT 80, but 81 votes of the all lawmakers! Than I found similar information on several places including Macedonian Wikipedia https://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Собрание_на_Република_Македонија were they use text from Rules and procedures: "двотретинско или квалификувано значи дека за одреден закон е потребно позитивно да се изјаснат две третини од вкупниот број пратеници во Собранието. Ова значи дека законот е донесен кога за неговото донесување гласале 81 пратеници.", that mean 81 Members of Parliament. Now I really don't know. But I noticed that in previous discussion user Operahome uses "81 MP's"[2]. Is it possible that lawmakers, some of them students of Janev didn't knew what was legal meaning of term: two-thirds majority. If its mean 81 vote, than Zaev has lost the procedure. I then consulted with two more teachers of Constitutional Law from Macedonia and surprisingly they were "not sure" about majority!! I am puzzled!Алфа БК (talk) 12:09, 20 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Our article supermajority assumes that precisely two-thirds will work in most parliaments. The Macedonian article is uncited. However, searching for articles that use "81" I find [3] and [4]. But the AP article says it was passed by 69 votes last summer -- the 81 applied to removing president Ivanov, if he wouldn't ratify the bill. The Guardian article says a "constitutional amendment" passed by 80 votes, a bare 2/3 majority. It is conceivable that a different standard applies for amending the constitution vs removing the president? Wnt (talk) 16:54, 20 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, dear Wnt, same rule applies for removing the president Ivanov, and Zaev one month ago had sent threats to Macedonian president, and Ivanov have replied to Zaev: "try it"!. As for 2/3 majority, if prof. Игор Јанев (prohibited person I.J. here on Eng. wiki) contacted oppositional block or VMRO-DPMNE or vice versa, they (VMRO) will not later than on Monday react to that fact, when (or before) it is expected US State Department envoy M. Palmer to arrive in Macedonia and try to calm present war-like situation. As for The Guardian, I would conclude that it is not reliable source, because even professors of Constitutional law cannot unanimously interpret what represent 2/3 majority under Constitutional order in Macedonia. Now you may ask yourself "What kind of country is Macedonia" if no academic authority can interpret what legally represent 2/3 majority under Macedonian Constitution.Алфа БК (talk) 17:21, 20 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, now a couple minutes ago from pro-VMRO-DPMNE portal "Infomax" there is a first unofficial reaction by the VMRO that states "Decision was null and void" and have "no legal effect" [5]. Comment was given by a Constitutional law professor at State University in Skopje Tanja Karakamisheva, chief advisor to the Hristijan Mickoski president of the party VMRO-DPMNE. That is certainly more relevant statement than the statement by prof. Игор Јанев (related here at Wiki to user:Operahome), who is currently professor of International law and basically work most of the time in Belgrade (Serbia). Maybe, one should not take these statement(s) too seriously because prof. T. Karakamisheva is a college of prof. I. Janev, who is well-known extreme nationalist and probably bias. (By saying that, it does not mean that I suggest that he is not expert on Constitutional Law or International law.)Алфа БК (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:25, 20 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That looks like a useful source, in that it shows text, I assume from the constitution ... with a few iterations of searching I was able to get to the plaintext "Одлуката за пристапување кон измена на Уставот, Собранието ја донесува со двотретинско мнозинство гласови од вкупниот број пратеници." That's all Greek to me (sorry, couldn't help myself!) but presumably it sheds light on the issue. (the above links were an experiment, but it appears Wiktionary is very incomplete where Macedonian is concerned, sorry) Note though that 117 of the 120 apparently voted, so this is also a question about how the abstentions (?) are counted. I still say they should have called it Paeonia or Macedonia Salutaris ;) Wnt (talk) 20:25, 20 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Wnt, thanks for your understanding and patience. As for results were: abstentions=0, against=0, yes=80, and total=117, believe me no one understand that mathematics or logic, except some Macedonians and perhaps especially those Macedonians from the ruling party SDSM. Regards!Алфа БК (talk) 21:28, 20 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So do you know who the missing three people are? How do they describe their votes and their current status within the assembly? For example, is there some way to not abstain but just plain not vote available? (I mean, if abstaining is equivalent to "no", maybe not-abstaining is equivalent to "yes"???) Wnt (talk) 21:40, 20 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Wnt, "abstention" under Mac. Const. order means not voting or not present and not voting, and its not equivalent to "yes" or "no". Thanks for asking.178.223.41.197 (talk) 08:32, 21 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That Agreement violates basic Human Rights, by restricting Freedoms of speech and opinion, including historical and social science, archeology and broad areas of media and all levels of "education", where no one should have "different opinion" and use term "Macedonia" in any "official communication", since all "Hellenic heritage" belongs "exclusively" (under agreement) to Greece. For instance all National institutions such as Parliament and Supreme Court (more than 100 institutions) including the name VMRO will have to be changed. Or History text books, even by private editors, will have to be written and studied again, or further there will be certain restrictions on what you can say on public or private media (TV, etc.). And, besides Human Rights restrictions contained in that agreement, contrary to the modern international standards, stipulates that final approval of Macedonian Constitutional change will rest on foreign parliament! i.e. Greek one, because they will act as a last superior instance (like sort of Superior Parliament) where all amendments related to the agreement and Constitution will have to be approved! The question is if Macedonian Parliament even make such changes to its Constitution, that even violate international standards, and the Government in Greece fall/change or the Parliament in Greece do not finally approve Agreement (in their Parliament), what will happened with Macedonian system, because its not easy if even possible to undone Constitutional changes? This changes itself are in violation of international Human Rights standards, and especially its apparent by direct restricting of Media, Education and Culture, meaning controlling and policing them by government and even (joint) Greek Commissions, and by degrading democracy Macedonia will stil not be ready for EU admission (standards).178.223.41.197 (talk) 04:27, 22 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Later, the government corrected statement and said in media that MP's who voted against were 39 (against=39) and with yes =80, and that still doesn't work since 39+80 is 119, and it is not 117 total! But since international community already congratulated victory to Zaev, what can I say? Welcome to Macedonian Parliament! This is the place on the planet Earth where everything is possible.Алфа БК (talk) 22:06, 20 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I read that all members of VMRO, except 7 (and plus one from the Socijalist party) where not in the Macedonian Parliament, but government still reported that 39 voted against[6][7]. And still 39+80 = 119, not total=117. VMRO said that 8 Members of Parliament were bribed with approximately 1 milion US dollars from Greeks shadow funds for secret ops. where total sum reached 50 milion. I also learned from a person close to well informed people that in all what happened there in Macedonia VMRO-DPMNE was also perhaps not innocent, and that for example one Member of Parliament (VMRO) who was in jail by SDSM was released from the prison (by SDSM) only for a purpose to vote Yes, and than he suddenly survived deadly hart attack (Mr. MP Krsto Mukoski) [8] and after some medical help in Skopje hospital (urgent div.), sent back to Parliament to vote: Yes. To conclude this boring discussion about Macedonia, in all that developments in Macedonia, there were no good or bad people. Basically they (regardless VMRO or SDSM or anyone else) all are bad, but like in life everywhere else some are worse than the others. So personally I don't feel sorry for anyone. God help them.Алфа БК (talk) 22:47, 20 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I would be stupid to engage myself (any)more in discussion here about Macedonian problems. Thank you Wnt, Jimbo and all of you who followed this debate and I could say idiotic stuff and show some interest in this generally stupid issue. All for all of you who finished elementary school, I guess you could apply to become a Head of Mathematics Department at Skopje University in Macedonia. Or even to be lawmaker(s) in Macedonian Parliament under condition previously to learn Macedonian language. As for Russia, I just saw news that they have refused to recognize decision of Macedonian Parliament [9] and will continue to call country Republic of Macedonia. Thanks guys!Алфа БК (talk) 00:04, 21 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Just in case, Any attempt to remove the President of Macedonia Gjorge Ivanov will only lead to the arrest of Prime Minster Zoran Zaev.178.223.41.197 (talk) 08:45, 21 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

see http://mn.mk/aktuelno/15429-Mnozinstvo-potrebno-za-donesuvanje-na-zakoni — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.200.247.65 (talk) 10:55, 21 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly! And according to Macedonian Constitution [10] all contracts and agreements "must be in accordance with the Constitution", International Law standards, including International jus cogens norms and principles! (meaning not contrary to Constitution, as it is case with that act), so in the process of contracting and approval of that Agreement, there where flagrant Constitutional violations and breaches, both on procedural and material substantive level, beginning from the moment of the signing of the Agreement by two ministers (in Prespa).178.223.41.197 (talk) 05:12, 22 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In addition, see article of Macedonian Constitution where it is provided that such political agreements with other countries can be signed and concluded only by the President of Republic of Macedonia, and that is not the case now (Agreement was signed and concluded by the Minister of Foreign affairs, not the President)!178.223.41.197 (talk) 06:24, 22 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Halloween cheer!

Happy Halloween!

Hello Jimbo Wales:
Thanks for all of your contributions to improve Wikipedia, and have a happy and enjoyable Halloween!
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A barnstar for you!

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	Thanks for founding Wikipedia for you and me! =) Huff slush7264 talk 21:11, 23 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]