Talk:Sentinelese

The age of the population

"the group [...] is believed to have lived on North Sentinel Island for as long as 55,000 years". Is this based on anything? It's hard or, rather, impossible to imagine it could be. We are talking about people whom we know almost nothing about, and even if we did know, how on earth could it be proven or even speculated that a group has lived somewhere for tens of thousands of years. Even the DNA studies couldn't prove anything of the kind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.248.191.141 (talk) 13:22, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

External links modified

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Negrito inter-relatedness

I removed the following recently-inserted para:

they don't even make fire. They are pygmy negritos, which means that they are related in race not to the modern day populations of Asia but closer to the Mbuti pygmies of the central African rainforests and the Khoisan peoples of southern Africa. They are assumed to be the descendants of the first modern homo sapiens sapiens to colonise the world, and most of whom have now been replaced elsewhere by later population migrations. Small negrito groups do exist in places such as Vietnam, leading us to the conclusion that these were the original populations of the area, later replaced by South Chinese settlers. The fact that only the Andaman Islanders have retained their own language, while other groups have been overrun by migrants at different stages of history, shows just how isolated these people are.

Apart from its awkward phrasing, while it has indeed been speculated that the Andamanese share some genetic heritage in common with various other widely-dispersed peoples who have been identified as negritos, and that they represent the remaining descendants of some "earlier wave" of migration, this has not yet been "proved". The idea does warrant mentioning, but IMO not in the form given above, needs to be more carefully portrayed (and also, referenced). I think it best that this text be reworked.--cjllw | TALK 22:58, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

"Negritos" are an apparently paraphyletic catchall, and any six-footer who waves a 4-foot barbed arrow at me with his flatbow surely does not qualify as "pygmy" in my book. Dysmorodrepanis 09:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps a simple link to the Negrito article would suffice, which incidentally includes Andaman islanders within its definition. Kortoso (talk) 17:17, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

"Negrito" is a term that has no Anthropological or scientific validity, its an old word from the "Scientific racism" era of Anthropology that tried to stuff all 'black' folk into a common bucket or buckets without any regard to actual lineage or genetics creating absurdities like claiming Aboriginal Australians and Africans as closely related when its just not the case. Lets not use it! 2001:44B8:6117:B100:C0F9:7B48:AC7A:939C (talk) 02:39, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Incorrect. Please refer to the well-referenced article on the subject. 50.111.51.207 (talk) 18:56, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

John Allen Chau

Moved from Sentinelese

. His apparent desire to offer salvation to the tribe was poorly received, judging by the number of arrows in his corpse.

An IP had added the content above which I have removed, I have not seen any source stating the same. And it looks like original research to me. --DBigXrayᗙ 05:47, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Not to mention totally un-encyclopedic.50.111.51.207 (talk) 18:57, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Agree, but still a great attempt at humour. --DBigXrayᗙ 22:18, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

I think it is worth mentioning John's family's response regarding forgiving the sentelenese and the fishermen https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-46300459. Also John was not just carryig a Bible, he had other gifts such as a soccer ball, fishing line and scissors https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/washington-state-man-is-killed-by-bow-and-arrow-on-remote-island-in-india/.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DannyS712 (talk) 05:35, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Death of John Allen Chau

Re: Death of John Allen Chau. Should this be a stand-alone article (with whatever appropriate title)? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 14:14, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

I was bold. I created the article. Here: Death of John Allen Chau. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:18, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

And I have reverted and redirected this per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLP1E that also applies to recently died people. this is an invalid and controversial CFORK that should not have been made without a proper discussion. --DBigXrayᗙ 20:11, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Whitewashing of John Chau as a missionary

Recent edits have shown Chau to be an “adventurer” and have removed all mention of the fact that he WAS a Christian Missionary, and that even his parents recognised this fact. The link I provided showed a post by his mother and father who corroborated his status as a missionary, and furthermore, police questioned his friend Alex who was also a preacher, because he specifically wanted to go there to proselytise.

The person(s) who have edited this have fundamentally removed all mention of the fact that this man, who was a missionary, and a Christian missionary at that, in favour of a biased and non-NPOV view that he was some kind of tourist.

It is a pertinent fact that he is a missionary and there is at lest enough evidence to suggest he was there in this capacity. The introduction says “some reports” describe him as a Christian, when it is an established fact that he described himself as one, as did his parents.

WobInDisguise (talk) 16:25, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

I made some of these edits - though as far as I know mention of him being described as a missionary was never removed - and had no intention to whitewash; but I was concerned that earlier versions of this section presented him solely as a missionary, whereas most of our sources seem to suggest that he was primarily or at least partly an adventurer. (One of the sources for the sentence that previously described him purely as a missionary has the title "American 'adventure tourist' killed by remote tribe after visiting protected Indian island".) I'm sure his parents would rather think that he was there purely to spread the word of God rather than just to have an adventure; I don't know if our sources back that up quite so clearly. (In any case, most of this content is now at Death of John Allen Chau rather than here.) TSP (talk) 17:38, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Since he had ZERO chance of communicating with them, his ill-advised action that broke the law strikes me much more of an adventure-seeker - and a very reckless one. A missionary has to be able to communicate, so he was not really in that capacity, no matter what family/friends say.50.111.51.207 (talk) 19:01, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

• TSP you should read some more reliable and recent news. This is clearly a whitewashing. WobInDisguise has already said everything that needs to be said. I will just add some sources and excerpts from his own diary published by Washington Post, that are enough to clarify his missionary status (which was also confirmed by his family in their statement.--DBigXrayᗙ 20:19, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

‘God, I don’t want to die,’ U.S. missionary wrote before he was killed by remote tribe on Indian island Washington Post 21 Nov( referred below as WaPo)

Washington man traveled to India to convert isolated tribe. (WaPo)

An American missionary trying to meet and convert one of the most isolated hunter-and-gatherer tribes in the world offered them fish and other small gifts before the tribesmen killed him and buried his body on the beach, journals and emails show. .(WaPo)

John Allen Chau... also led missionary trips abroad. .(WaPo)

Chau’s riveting journal of his last days, shared with The Washington Post by his mother. (WaPo)

Chau wrote — reacted angrily as he tried to attempt to speak their language and sing “worship songs” to them. (WaPo)

“You guys might think I’m crazy in all this but I think it’s worthwhile to declare Jesus to these people,” .(WaPo)

he led missionary trips for youth from Oral Roberts University in Oklahoma. (WaPo)

I hope this isn’atch played or goal scored is significant enough to be included in the biography of a person.t one of my last notes but if it is ‘to God be the Glory..(WaPo)

Chau wrote that he was “doing this to establish the kingdom of Jesus on the island … Do not blame the natives if I am killed.” ‘Why are they so angry’: US man John Allen Chau, killed by remote Sentinel Island tribe, was trying to convert them to Christianity SCMP 22 Nov

Based on his social media posts, Chau appears to have visited India multiple times in the last few years, exploring many parts of southern India and preaching in some places too. American missionary killed by tribe on remote Indian island Reuters 21 Nov

--DBigXrayᗙ 20:19, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Firstly, please assume good faith.

American ‘adventure tourist’ killed by remote tribe after visiting India’s protected North Sentinel Island The Independent, 21 Nov

Chau’s social media posts identify him as an adventurer and explorer. Responding to a travel blog query about what was on the top of his adventure list, Chau said: “Going back to the Andaman and Nicobar Islands in India.” Reuters, 21 Nov

Andaman Director of the General Police Dependra Pathak told the News Minute, an Indian news website, he was told that Chau lived in the US state of Alabama and was "some kind of paramedic". "People thought he is a missionary because he had mentioned his position on God and that he was a believer on social media or somewhere online. But in a strict sense, he was not a missionary. He was an adventurer. His intention was to meet the aborigines." BBC, 21 Nov

"I love to explore," he told the Outbound Collective four years ago. "So whether it's trekking through dense old growth forests near the Chilliwack River [on the US-Canada border], finding a rumoured waterfall in the jungles of the Andamans, or just wandering around a city to get a feel for the vibes, I'm an explorer at heart." BBC, 21 Nov

So, yes, there are plenty of sources that suggest his motives were at least in part missionary; but also plenty that describe him as an adventure tourist, adventurer, or explorer - and some that dispute the description of him as a missionary.

I absolutely agree that mention that he has been described as a missionary should not be removed - I don't think it ever was - but I think simply describing him as a missionary, suggesting that was his undisputed full-time exclusive activity and motivation, is also misleading and does not reflect the sources. TSP (talk) 21:15, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

No there are only a few sources, one that you referred above that call this an adventure expedition. Almost all of the reliable sources note that he was infact a missionary/evangelist/etc ( choose your word) who was out there to convert them into Christianity. And all this was before the discovery of his hand written note. His own hand written note That was published today and excerpts of which I shared above and published by Washington post, remove any confusion anyone may have regarding the exact nature of his visit. WP:MAINSTREAM and WP:UNDUE are relevant pages that elaborate more on the what should be kept in the article and what should be avoided. --DBigXrayᗙ 21:25, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

"The eternal lives of this [Sentinelese] tribe is at hand and I can't wait to see them around the throne of God worshipping in their own language as Revelation 7:9-10 states," Chau wrote, referring to the Bible's Book of Revelation.India Today

• Some more reported today by CNN. 'You guys might think I'm crazy': Diary of US 'missionary' reveals last days in remote island--DBigXrayᗙ 06:04, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

In pages his musings are a clear indication of his desire to convert the tribe. "Lord, is this island Satan's last stronghold where none have heard or even had the chance to hear your." CNN

His notes indicate that he knew the trip was illegal, describing how the small fishing vessel transported him to the isolated island under cover of darkness, evading patrols. "God Himself was hiding us from the Coast Guard and many patrols," he wrote. CNN

Chau’s family said in a social media post he was a Christian missionary and mountaineer.Reuters 23 Nov

• Fear and faith: Inside the last days of an American missionary killed by remote island tribe. washingtonpost 22 Nov

I‘m scared, wrote the 26-year-old, who had traveled to the island on a clandestine mission to convert its inhabitants to Christianity. WaPo 22 (See link above)

Chau’s diary reveals a portrait of a young man obsessed with the idea of taking Christianity to the Sentinelese SCMP 23 Nov

--DBigXrayᗙ 11:31, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

• Could everyone who posted a quote without a source above please go back and either add a link to the source or delete the quote? We only care about what can be verified. --Guy Macon (talk) 07:03, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the edit, and TSP, you are clearly wrong about what you wrote of editing out the fact he is a missionary, was, and always has been. His family posted on Instagram STATING he was a Missionary and I cited it. It was removed by someone. Also this clearly IS Christian colonialism and that was removed too. 85.255.232.84 (talk) 10:14, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

That would be relevant had I ever edited that out. I didn't; I always included the fact that he has been described as a missionary; I also included sourced statements that say he was primarily an adventurer, and specifically dispute the assertion that he was a missionary.

I feel one issue here may be that some editors see being a missionary as a bad thing, so think that saying "Well even his family say he was a missionary" should prove it. Whereas he and his family are likely to think that being a missionary is a good thing, so are likely to want to present him as one even if that wasn't his main motivation.

We have sources that say he was a missionary; and other, official, sources that specifically say he wasn't. Both these perspectives should be included; WP:NPOV. TSP (talk) 10:55, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

1. Being a missionary isnt a bad thing. I dont think any editors is claiming it is bad. But there are attempts by some to hide this fact from the article.
2. removing mentions of Missionary in order to whitewash him while all the mainstream sources claim his intention was to convert the tribals is a bad thing.
3. The brave soul gave up his life spreading the name of God and here we have folks who are trying to call it an adventure trip, when he had written himself in his diary about attempts to convert the tribals. And all reliable source say he went there to convert.
4. His own family, frieds and his own note has been used by reliable sources to state that he was a missionary and he made this journey to convert the tribals and we have only one police officer claiming that he wanted to meet the tribals, well yes obviously, you cant convert without meeting could you ?--DBigXrayᗙ 11:31, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

DBigXray, please WP:AGF and avoid making comments like "...hide this fact from the article" and "whitewash". You were told about WP:AGF before, and then you violated it again. Are you going to voluntarily stop this behavior or do we need to put in a request to have you blocked from editing Wikipedia until you agree to follow our rules?

We all want the article to say what the sources say. Instead of attacking other editors and repeating the same arguments again and again, please address the sources that have been provided that don't support your preferred version. Just waving your hands, ignoring The Independent, Reuters, and BBC, and telling fibs like "all reliable source say he went there to convert" does not make those sources magically go away. In my experience missionaries and adventurers both take a dim view of people who write things that are not true. I'm just saying. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:43, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Death of John Allen Chau - cut down or fork

The section on the death of John Allen Chau is now a quarter of the article by word count, and much of it is not all that relevant to the article topic (Chau was not Sentinelese, so questions of his motivations and actions are not necessarily relevant to this article).

I'd suggest it either needs to be forked, or cut down significantly to primarily the content that is relevant to the Sentinelese people.

(Regarding the motivations for the remerge: WP:BLP1E doesn't apply as the article was about his death, not about him; WP:NOTNEWS applies to extensive coverage in this article just as much as it applies to forking a new article; and I'm not convinced in either case it's in violation.) TSP (talk) 20:55, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

The readable text as it stands right now is only 3.7KB checked this tool. Which is perfectly reasonable right now as it only reports the facts that are relevant to understanding of this section. Moreover this size does not fall into the category of bloated section.

There is no such policy that states a section has to be cut down drastically simply because the other sections need expansion.

The WP:CFORK is invalid, due to concerns of BLP1E and NOTNEWS. To give you an example in support of my argument, "Hanumanthappa Koppad" is another such subject who I know of and had received extensive and widespread publicity in the international media and yet his article had been deleted. --DBigXrayᗙ 21:05, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

I did already address both BLP1E and NOTNEWS.

Hanumanthappa Koppad's article was deleted because information on him was properly dealt with in the article about the event for which he was notable: 2016 Siachen Glacier avalanche. The Sentinelese are not an event, so that does not apply to this article. The death of John Allen Chau is an event, and one which has received significant coverage; hence there was an article about the event, not about the person, in line with BLP1E.

NOTNEWS is about the amount of coverage that should be received by recent events; it applies exactly as much if the coverage is here as if it's in its own article. The difference is that in its own article it is relevant; here, a lot of it isn't - John Chau's biography and motivations do not directly relate to the Sentinelese. TSP (talk) 21:28, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure why more detail has to be included here about Chai's attempt to contact the islanders than about the previous ones. The subsection on him could easily be edited down to the basic facts. JezGrove (talk) 21:26, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

• John Chau's biography and motivations (other than those related to his death) are not notable and does not deserve any mention anywhere. Until we have a clear consensus here in the talk page that calls for a WP:CFORK, CFORK should not be created. --DBigXrayᗙ 21:42, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

• JezGrove I think the content in the section so far is just about enough that is needed to give a clear understanding of the incident to the reader. The previous attempts were one day or short events this particular incident was spread over many days. That said, can you share your version of the section here in the talk page. and we can discuss about the appropriateness of that. --DBigXrayᗙ 21:42, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

I think every previous contact except the 2006 one was more extensive than Chau's brief encounters - especially 1880 and the multiple 1990s contacts.

A proportionately-sized section for this article would probably look roughly like what was in the article between the fork and the re-merge. (Even that is probably more than it deserves by strict significance to the Sentinelese, but reflects the comparative abundance of sources.) TSP (talk) 21:55, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

TSP, so far from your comments you seem to believe that all sections should be short and concise. There is no such policy supporting that belief of yours. On the contrary, this death is an incident that deserves more space because AFAIK this was the first incident where an alien went as close to them so as to be able to sing worship songs to them. He had no dangerous intentions and must have tried hard to convey this to the tribals, but the tribals were angry due to his act of trespassing. They made their intentions clear by warning shots on day 1, followed by breaking his canoe on Day 2, and eventually killing him after he went there with intentions of not returning back and stay at the island. I think these chain of events throw a great amount of light on the thinking and acts of these tribals. As such all these incidents deserve the amount of detail it presents as of now. --DBigXrayᗙ 22:13, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned the basic facts are: Chau bribed fishermen to illegally take him to the island on consecutive days, with the aim of proselytizing the Christian faith. Despite being struck by an arrow on one of these attempts he returned to the island and was killed. His attempts threatened the extinction of the tribe.

I think this could be expressed succinctly as:

summarized version

In November 2018, John Allen Chau, a 26-year-old American Christian missionary from Vancouver, Washington,[29][30][31] travelled illegally to the North Sentinel island by bribing local fishermen[36] in the hopes of making contact with the Sentinelese and converting them to Christianity.[29][32][33] On 15 November he was taken to around 500-700m from the shore [37] and was warned by the fishermen not to go further, but continued his journey to the shore alone in a kayak, carrying a Bible.[30] The fishermen saw him getting attacked by the islanders with bows and arrows but reported that he kept walking [35] and returned to the boat later on the same day with arrow injuries.[37] He wrote about his visit, noting he had sung hymns and that the islanders had been angry.[38] On his second attempt the following day, before leaving the fishing boat Chau gave the fisherman a long note addressed to his family, saying that he believed Jesus had given him the strength to go to the most forbidden places on Earth [30] and that "You guys might think I’m crazy in all this but I think it’s worthwhile to declare Jesus to these people."[38] His kayak was broken by the Sentinelese and he swam back to the boat,[35] despite having previously told the fishermen to leave the island without him.[39] On 17 November, Chau visited the island again but did not return. The fishermen later reported that they had fled after seeing the islanders attaching a rope around his neck and dragging his body. They returned the next day and saw Chau's body on the shore [35] and reported his death to a local preacher and friend, who called his family in the United States. Chau's family then called the United States Embassy in New Delhi [35] and the Indian authorities arrested seven fishermen who, as of November 2018, may face a number of charges including being culpable of Chau's homicide.[40][41][42] No charges can be brought by India against Sentinelese islanders following its declaration as a sovereign state by the Indian government. Furthermore, Chau was in direct violation of Indian law, which dictates that any passage within three miles of the coastline is illegal, and is enforced by the Indian Navy.[43][44] According to local officials the islanders have lived in isolation for approximately 60,000 years, so the tribe lack the immunities to common human illnesses like the measles and flu. Human rights group Survival International stated of Chau's visit and contact with the islanders: "It’s not impossible that the Sentinelese have just been infected by deadly pathogens to which they have no immunity, with the potential to wipe out the entire tribe."[45][46]

-JezGrove (talk) 22:51, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

(Edit conflict, in reply to User:DBigXray)

WP:PROPORTION - "An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news."

WP:NOTEVERYTHING - "A Wikipedia article should not be a complete exposition of all possible details, but a summary of accepted knowledge regarding its subject." (Note that the subject here is the Sentinelese.)

In 1880, explorers, after a multi-day expedition onto Sentinel Island, captured six Sentinelese and took them back to Port Blair. In the early 1990s, after a prolonged series of contacts, boats from Adim Janjati Vikas Samiti were on several occasions allowed to approach the shore and were greeted by unarmed islanders. Both of these seem far more extensive and significant contacts, but even in the draft I propose above would be treated much more briefly than Chau's short encounters. TSP (talk) 22:56, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

(Also relevant, WP:SPINOFF: "There are two situations where spinoff subarticles become necessary, and, when done properly, they create the opportunity to go into much more detail than otherwise permissible: 1. Articles where the expanding volume of an individual section creates an undue weight problem".) TSP (talk) 23:27, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

• Hi All, I created another section with the relevant versions to compare and continue this discussion. The Discussion to cut down and the discussion to Fork are seperate topics actually, so lets keep this thread as a FORK discussion thread and continue the summarizing discussion below. --DBigXrayᗙ 12:46, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

In a sense they're two questions, but they're also fairly intrinsically connected. I'm happy to either (a) keep a version here like the Jay D Easy version, or at the very most my version; or (b) to have a separate page more like what is currently in the article. I don't mind too much which of those is done; but I am pretty certain that leaving it in this article in anything like its current form is inappropriate. TSP (talk) 16:25, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Survey on Fork or No Fork

• Fork. – The original question was "cut down or fork?" I think we should fork into a new article, entitled "Death of John Allen Chau" (or some such). (I assume that "fork" means to branch off and create a separate, stand-alone article.) Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:03, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
• Fork – Not very strong feelings, but I'm inclined to think this is something that's received substantial enough coverage to have a page. My major position, though, is that there should not be extensive coverage of the incident on this page; I don't mind too much if it stays here at its current length (one paragraph) and isn't covered anywhere else. If it's going to get much longer, that should be somewhere that isn't here. TSP (talk) 11:01, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
• NO FORK. Classic WP:BIO1E, Chau will be forgotten within 7 days, unless he is nomunated for a Darwin Award. WWGB (talk) 11:19, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
• No Fork. per WP:BIO1E and WP:NOTNEWS. mention in the media for his death does not necessarily mean notability. Religious missionaries are killed in several parts of the world, they dont get so much mention. Chau is getting the coverage mainly due to the uncontacted tribals. The tribals are notable but this notability isn't passed to Chau to deserve his own BIO or seperate death article. see WP:NOTINHERITED. The content in this article on Chou should only talk about Chau and his trip and not about life of Chau or his hobbies. --DBigXrayᗙ 11:38, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
• Cut down and don't fork. The article, if created, is likely to not survive WP:AfD because it would violate WP:BIO1E. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:48, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
• Cut down and don't fork. This article doesn't need so much detail about Chau and his misguided visit, but he also doesn't merit his own article, as others have noted above. JezGrove (talk) 21:43, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Discussion to cut down the Content

Version currently in the article

Death of John Allen Chau (2018) In November 2018, John Allen Chau, a 26-year-old American Christian missionary from Vancouver, Washington, travelled illegally to the North Sentinel island with the help of local fishermen in the hopes of making contact with the Sentinelese and converting them to Christianity. According to First Post India, he had made several prior visits to the Andaman Islands. On 14 November, Chau hired a fishing boat and crew in Port Blair, South Andaman Island, for travelling to North Sentinel Island. He had reportedly paid the fishermen ₹25,000 to transport him to the prohibited island. According to police, he waited and started his journey in the cover of the darkness to avoid detection by the authorities. On 15 November, Chau attempted his first visit to North Sentinel island, and the fishing boat took him to around 500–700m from the shore. Chau was warned by the fishermen not to go further, but continued his journey to the shore alone in a kayak, carrying a Bible. The fishermen saw him getting attacked by the islanders with bows and arrows as he reached the shore, but reported that he kept walking despite the attack. After his visit, he returned to the boat later on the same day with arrow injuries on his body. He wrote about his visit on 15 November and stated that the islanders were angry with his visit while he had attempted to sing worship songs to them. On 16 November he made a second attempt to land in kayak. According to the local police, before leaving the boat for this second attempt, Chau gave the fisherman a long note addressed to his family, saying that he believed Jesus had given him the strength to go to the most forbidden places on Earth and that "You guys might think I’m crazy in all this but I think it’s worthwhile to declare Jesus to these people." During this second attempt, his kayak was broken by the Sentinelese, after which he returned to the boat by swimming. Chau had told the fishermen that he did not plan to return from the island with them and instructed them to leave without him. On 17 November, Chau visited the island again but did not return that day. The fishermen who had transported him to the island reported that they later saw the islanders attaching a rope around his neck and dragging his body, whereupon the fishermen fled. They returned on 18 November and saw Chau's body on the shore. The fishermen who had taken Chau to the island then reported his death to a local preacher and friend, who called his family in the United States, and the family subsequently called the United States Embassy in New Delhi. Following this contact, Indian authorities arrested seven fishermen who, as of November 2018, may face a number of charges including being accessories to Chau's homicide. No charges can be brought by India against Sentinelese islanders. Human rights group Survival International said: "It’s not impossible that the Sentinelese have just been infected by deadly pathogens to which they have no immunity, with the potential to wipe out the entire tribe." References

summmarized version by JezGrove

In November 2018, John Allen Chau, a 26-year-old American Christian missionary from Vancouver, Washington,[29][30][31] travelled illegally to the North Sentinel island by bribing local fishermen[36] in the hopes of making contact with the Sentinelese and converting them to Christianity.[29][32][33] On 15 November he was taken to around 500-700m from the shore [37] and was warned by the fishermen not to go further, but continued his journey to the shore alone in a kayak, carrying a Bible.[30] The fishermen saw him getting attacked by the islanders with bows and arrows but reported that he kept walking [35] and returned to the boat later on the same day with arrow injuries.[37] He wrote about his visit, noting he had sung hymns and that the islanders had been angry.[38] On his second attempt the following day, before leaving the fishing boat Chau gave the fisherman a long note addressed to his family, saying that he believed Jesus had given him the strength to go to the most forbidden places on Earth [30] and that "You guys might think I’m crazy in all this but I think it’s worthwhile to declare Jesus to these people."[38] His kayak was broken by the Sentinelese and he swam back to the boat,[35] despite having previously told the fishermen to leave the island without him.[39] On 17 November, Chau visited the island again but did not return. The fishermen later reported that they had fled after seeing the islanders attaching a rope around his neck and dragging his body. They returned the next day and saw Chau's body on the shore [35] and reported his death to a local preacher and friend, who called his family in the United States. Chau's family then called the United States Embassy in New Delhi [35] and the Indian authorities arrested seven fishermen who, as of November 2018, may face a number of charges including being culpable of Chau's homicide.[40][41][42] No charges can be brought by India against Sentinelese islanders following its declaration as a sovereign state by the Indian government. Furthermore, Chau was in direct violation of Indian law, which dictates that any passage within three miles of the coastline is illegal, and is enforced by the Indian Navy.[43][44] According to local officials the islanders have lived in isolation for approximately 60,000 years, so the tribe lack the immunities to common human illnesses like the measles and flu. Human rights group Survival International stated of Chau's visit and contact with the islanders: "It’s not impossible that the Sentinelese have just been infected by deadly pathogens to which they have no immunity, with the potential to wipe out the entire tribe."[45][46] JezGrove (talk) 22:51, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Difference between the 2 above versions [1]

version by TSP

On 15 November 2018, John Allen Chau, a 27-year-old American[29][30] described variously as a Christian missionary and an 'adventure tourist',[31][32][33] travelled illegally to North Sentinel Island with the help of local fishermen to attempt to contact the Sentinelese.[34][35][36] He went from the fishing boat in a kayak to the shore,[29] where he was attacked by islanders with bows and arrows.[35] He returned to the boat later that day[37] and wrote that the islanders were angry with his visit while he had attempted to sing worship songs to them.[38] On a second attempt to land on 16th November, his kayak was broken by the Sentinelese, and he returned to the boat by swimming.[35] On 17 November, Chau visited the island again. The fishermen reported that they saw islanders attaching a rope around his neck and dragging his body. On 18 November the fishermen returned and saw Chau's body on the shore.[35] Indian authorities arrested seven fishermen for involvement with the contact attempt.[39][40][41] Human rights group Survival International linked the death to the 2018 lifting of some restrictions on foreigners visiting the islands,[42] and said "it’s not impossible that the Sentinelese have just been infected by deadly pathogens to which they have no immunity, with the potential to wipe out the entire tribe."[43][44]

Version by User:Jay D. Easy

In November 2018, John Allen Chau, a 27-year-old American evangelist was attacked and killed after traveled to North Sentinel island.[29] Chau was illegally brought close to the island's shore by local fishermen.[30] They reported they later saw the islanders attached a rope around his neck and dragged his body, whereupon the fishermen fled. They returned the next day and spotted Chau's body on the shore.[31]

Threaded discussion

User:TSP, yes, I believe the section on 1880 expedition, needs to be expanded. I feel that 1880 section leaves the reader with too many questions about the incident. Regarding your comments on SPINOFF, what exactly are you planning to write on the SPINOFF article that you can't write here ? Chau is already dead so he isn't going to do any more notable works. His life so far was not notable. His death is only in news because of the notability of the tribe.This incdent provides the reader an understanding of the hostile behavior of the Sentinelese, so it makes sense to have decent enough details about the incident.

I personally feel version by JezGrove is a good approximation, keeping together all the relevant information and provides the reader necessary details about the incident and behavior of sentinelese. My only edit major edit to JezGrove's version will be to remove the line that says "declaration as a sovereign state" because there is no such declaration. --DBigXrayᗙ 12:42, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Remove passage about cannibalism

"As the bodies of people the Sentinelese killed have been found, it has been suggested that they do not practise cannibalism. But as their culture remains unexplored, it is unknown whether they practise cannibalism within their tribal group(s)." does not have a citation and in my understanding does not add any meaningful information; it rather seems like a forced mention of cannibalism. Remove this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.46.137.15 (talk) 11:00, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Done. Popcornduff (talk) 11:03, 24 November 2018 (UTC)