Talk:He Jiankui

Merger

I am boldly merging Lulu and Nana here. The Lulu and Nana page is putatively about those two living people but was actually about the experiment that produced them and the reactions to it. I don't think we have enough information about the two girls to actually have a page about them. So I am just boldly doing this. If it is contested, we can have a formal merger discussion Jytdog (talk) 16:27, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support. Nice merging.--Lvhis (talk) 18:44, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
  • Thanks! Nobody has contested it yet (whew), but it is good to have some explicit agreement. :) Jytdog (talk) 19:11, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

@Jytdog and Lvhis: FWIW - as OA of the earlier original "Lulu and Nana" article - yes - *entirely* agree - merging that article to here (ie, "He Jiankui") seems the better article focus at the moment, at least until there may be worthy verifications and details about the currently purported (afaik) "gene edited babies", I would think - in any case - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 20:49, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

great. Jytdog (talk) 22:33, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 7 December 2018

He Jiankui → Jiankui He – Corrected to original order the page was made in and according to his published scientific articles, lab website, and his social media pages CRISPR Editor (talk) 06:06, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:43, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

• @CRISPR Editor and In ictu oculi: queried move request Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:43, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
• But this is the normal en.wp order. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:31, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
• @CRISPR Editor and In ictu oculi: The Chinese character order is 贺建奎 = "He Jiankui", with the surname first. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 13:42, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
• @Anthony Appleyard and In ictu oculi:Yes but see his own Linkedin page, his facebook page, his book, Quake lab alumni website, Deem lab alumni website, his researchgate, we should follow order of how he translates it to English not other people's. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CRISPR Editor (talk • contribs) 22:08, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
• I am a scientific researcher for over 10 years and an English speaking researcher needs to be able to search for the scientist by the English order he states in his own scientific publications otherwise they are not found by the scientific community. The order should not be defined by press releases and wikipedia users- some chinese names on wikipedia are in this type of order as exceptions. "There is an exception for people whose Chinese name is familiar but with English ordering (for example, Wen Ho Lee). In this case, the primary entry should be under the Western ordering with a redirect from the Chinese ordering." Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(Chinese)#Order_of_names Sources for name order as defined by him and his institutions: https://www.facebook.com/jiankuihe, https://www.linkedin.com/in/jiankui-he-a1917517/, https://www.amazon.com/Modularity-principle-evolution-complex-systems/dp/3844311416, https://quakelab.stanford.edu/people/alumni, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2978544/, https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jiankui_He, https://bio.sustc.edu.cn/en/?p=243, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCllbswlkjiLucnKTnS13LLA, http://www.nationalacademies.org/hk/index.html, http://sustc.edu.cn/en/news_events_1_1/2871, http://news.rice.edu/2010/11/17/new-way-of-predicting-dominant-seasonal-flu-strain/, https://scholarship.rice.edu/bitstream/handle/1911/62315/wrc01279.pdf?sequence=1, http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.731.6802&rep=rep1&type=pdf, https://cen.acs.org/articles/93/i43/Chinese-Firm-Enters-Next-Generation.html, https://www.genomeweb.com/business-news/chinas-direct-genomics-unveils-new-targeted-ngs-system-based-helicos-tech-clinical-use#.XAoULxNKjOQ, http://www.directgenomics.com/index.php/portal/page/index/id/10, https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=469188886937&set=a.102333721937&type=3&theater. --CRISPR Editor (talk) 06:36, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. He's being refered to as He Jiankui in all newspapers as far as I can see. Laurent (talk) 13:41, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
• @WikiLaurent and Laurent: Hi WikiLaurent, did you look at any of the multiple references I provided? What is better source the press or his own wedding announcement? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=469188886937&set=a.102333721937&type=3&theater. --CRISPR Editor (talk) 16:50, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. The "exception for people whose Chinese name is familiar but with English ordering" mentioned above, which does not apply to He, most often arises for individuals who use a Chinese name in Western (e.g. Anglophone) society where their Chinese name is reordered to Western First Last name order. The example, Wen Ho Lee worked at Los Alamos and lived in the USA for decades prior to his notoriety. He Jiankui, by contrast, has spent his life in PRC apart from 5 years in California schools. Chinese names of PRC persons are most often reported with the Chinese Last First name order that they actually use. User:CRISPR Editor does find some counterexamples including from PRC sources. But by contrast, a Google search (admittedly, a rought tool not conclusive) shows 1.6 million for "He Jiankui" vs 52,000 for "Jiankui He." NTK (talk) 16:54, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

• @NTK and NTK: Thanks for the info. Please see this https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=469188886937&set=a.102333721937&type=3&theater--CRISPR Editor (talk) 17:07, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

• I saw that already. It's a datapoint but it doesn't change the overwhelming usage of his name in English text. NTK (talk) 17:15, 7 December 2018 (UTC) It's also 8 years old and dates back to when he was living in Houston, so it's not persuasive as to what to use here. NTK (talk) 17:17, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
• @NTK and NTK: So marriages are no longer good after 8 years. Haha :)CRISPR Editor (talk) 17:24, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Since you're no longer arguing in good faith I will no longer respond to you. The question is what name is he known by in English media now. Not what he used in a wedding announcement in Houston 8 years ago. Which incidentally, in Chinese says "贺建奎" not "建奎贺". NTK (talk) 17:27, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

@NTK and NTK: This was a joke by the way as you can see by Haha and :). :DCRISPR Editor (talk) 17:57, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

@NTK and NTK: Also it is not what he is known in English media. The English media is not the end all source of information, primary sources are and I am an English speaking U.S. citizen and born in the U.S. Please give me a source for this to back up your information.CRISPR Editor (talk) 17:58, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

When I said "English media," I didn't just mean news media, I meant any English-language media. The overarching Wikipedia policy on article titles is "consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources." Not official or preferred names. You are correct that He still uses "Jiankui He" in various English contexts. But "He Jiankui" is also correct, in fact more correct in his own language, is the normal Wikipedia convention for Chinese name article titles, and is now overwhelmingly "consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources." But the bottom line is He was unknown outside his field before November, not very notable even within his own field before this experiment, and in the current context he is overwhelmingly known as "He Jiankui". That's not just from press releases much less circular leakage from Wikipedia, that's from the scientific community and policy-makers talking about him and news and social media coverage in English. There's no issue with locating this page based on the other order either. We list both, and search engines will find this page with both. NTK (talk) 21:10, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

• Both oppositions so far do provide primary sources: "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered (see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view). If no reliable sources can be found on a topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources CRISPR Editor (talk) 19:07, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
  • You are confusing WP:Notability (which determines whether an article can exist) with WP:Article titles (which determines what the title should be). The title of the article is based on usage in reliable sources as defined in the policy WP:SOURCE, not just those used to base article content on (which is what the guideline WP:IRS governs). There is no reason to exclude primary sources in determining how reliable sources refer to a topic. --RexxS (talk) 15:49, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
• More sources, not driven by the press release media storm (The wikipedia title is likely to affect press releases mentioned). We should define the name ordering before he became "famous". Press releases by the English media do not define someone's name ordering. - : His own lab website: http://web.archive.org/web/20120423031800/http://www.stanford.edu:80/~jiankui/, http://archive.li/3aMoR#selection-331.0-331.26, https://web.stanford.edu/group/petrov/BAPGV.html, https://www.eurekalert.org/multimedia/pub/27275.php, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlKwDGtikEo, http://www.frontlinegenomics.com/news/13510/direct-genomics-presents-single-molecule-sequencing-of-e-coli/, http://www.directgenomics.com/index.php/portal/team/detail/id/1, https://openwetware.org/wiki/Jiankui_He, https://meetings.cshl.edu/cshasia/Programs/2018Programs/a-genome%20program.pdf, https://loop.frontiersin.org/people/108163/bio, http://www.weizmann.ac.il/conferences/SCG2015/sites/conferences.SCG2015/files/scg2015_poster_abstract_list.pdf, https://arxiv.org/search/q-bio?searchtype=author&query=He%2C+J.
• The press releases previously went by the name order Jiankui He http://web.archive.org/web/20120329125853/http://www.stanford.edu/~jiankui/news.html CRISPR Editor (talk) 20:40, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
• More sources, including some from U.S. goverment sources, NIH and NSF grants, data: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/geo/query/acc.cgi?acc=GSM2483562, https://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward?AWD_ID=1120699, https://plus.google.com/100096913332279426232, https://newmexicoconsortium.org/conferences/qbio/2010/summer-school/4th-q-bio-summer-school-students, http://seqanswers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16535, https://studylib.net/doc/8706875/the-biological-physicist---american-physical-society, https://myemail.constantcontact.com/Starting-Tomorrow----5th-qPCR-Symposium-USA.html?soid=1102494410123&aid=xKzPrhsGgCACRISPR Editor (talk) 21:01, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose . Per what Laurent and NTK said above. That He Jiankui has become notable enough for Wikipedia is due to the gene-editing baby incident, about which most reports were not from academic journals but from media, using "He Jiankui".--Lvhis (talk) 21:14, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
• @Lvhis and Lvhis: Thanks for the information. Note that Associated Press was one of major sources of this article, per that Wikipedia notability guidelines referenced here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(events)#Diversity_of_sources "Significant national or international coverage is usually expected for an event to be notable. Wide-ranging reporting tends to show significance, but sources that simply mirror or tend to follow other sources, or are under common control with other sources, are usually discounted." "Media channels under common control or influence are usually counted as one local or national outlet and a single instance of coverage when they report a matter, even if they have several regional or national outlets. Similarly, where a single story or press release is simply re-reported (often word-for-word) by news publications, or when reporters base their information on repeating news coverage from elsewhere (for example, "AP reported that ..."), this should only be counted as a single source for the purpose of determining notability (see Wikipedia:Bombardment). Derivative reports and reports under common control cannot be used to verify each other, nor does mere repetition necessarily show the kind of effort that is good evidence of a significant matter."CRISPR Editor (talk) 21:55, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
• @Lvhis and Lvhis: Also the author of the other major report from MIT Technology Review, Antonio Regalado, recently refers to his name as Jiankui He. He was the one who broke the story. See these twitter posts: https://twitter.com/antonioregalado/status/1071077216581242881 and https://twitter.com/antonioregalado/status/1070419770351202304CRISPR Editor (talk) 22:06, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
• @NTK:Thanks NTF for the info, please see two above bullet points, I agree with you and I know He Jiankui is correct order from the beginning but the issue as a scientific researcher myself we need to look up people's past work in the scientific literature and the order he has is Jiankui He. I am also a genome engineer so I have very suiting credentials to make this type of judgment as I am a scientific author. I have met the actual policy members such as George Church, Jennifer Doudna, Feng Zhang that I think you a referring to. :) Also see this website, the actual event that occurred and his own public appearances for the event is Jiankui He as can be seen at this link and the livestream recording at 1:15:00 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07573-w. I just think the main thing if someone were to write a 214 page dissertation and 132 page book with their author name in Jiankui He it should stay in the order as intended by the person himself who authored it. The page was initially created Jiankui He and media reports had that but Wikipedia likely has influenced the press releases and policy makers. By the way genome engineering is my bread and butter and I teach it also by the way in the U.S. :)CRISPR Editor (talk) 04:55, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose The relevant policy is Wikipedia:Article titles which directs us to the topic-specific naming convention Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese) #Order of names:

  Personal names in Chinese, unlike Western names, present the surname (family or clan name) first. Unlike other instances where this occurs, it is standard practice in English to also present the family name first (for example, Mao Zedong, Deng Xiaoping and Bai Ling).

  There is an exception for people whose Chinese name is familiar but with English ordering (for example, Wen Ho Lee). In this case, the primary entry should be under the Western ordering with a redirect from the Chinese ordering.

  The exception does not apply here because no convincing evidence has been presented that Jiankui He is more familiar than He Jiankui. In fact, the relative number of Google hits (41,500 vs 1,630,000) indicate that He Jiankui is strongly preferred in online sources by a factor of about 40 times. --RexxS (talk) 15:38, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
• * @RexxS: Thanks for your input, I have already responded to this though and even used the same text you are using for the justification to switch it to the ordering Jiankui He. This is the ordering Jiankui He has the ordering of his name. Please see above bullet points. Also see Feng Zhang. CRISPR Editor (talk) 20:15, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

@RexxS:@NTK:@Lvhis:@WikiLaurent: I just did a google search myself Jiankui He gives 1,780,000 results. He Jiankui gives 1,760,000 results. They are about roughly equal not 41,500 vs 1,630,000. Are you sure your data is correct? I would be happy to share my data. This google search is done at 12:19:44 PM PST and 12:19:54 PST on 12-9-2018. Interestingly Jiankui He is above now what He Jiankui is. I did a search a few days ago and found He Jiankui was higher, but now it looks like Jiankui He is higher.CRISPR Editor (talk) 20:31, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

File:Https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Jiankui He vs. He Jiankui google search -12-9-2018.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Jiankui_He_vs._He_Jiankui_google_search_-12-9-2018.jpg

CRISPR Editor (talk) 20:45, 9 December 2018 (UTC)