Talk:Denuvo

Stuff that needs an edit or two

1) "According to legitimate users, this new change has caused massive framerate drops due to excessive hard drive writing"

The above is inaccurate. The original source of the the cracker Voksi, whom used the verb "writing" in the context of "causes Denuvo to continue writing in its section until the game is closed." This does not mean that the game performs writes on >the HDD< of all things. It might just as well perform writes in the memory sections that corresponds to Denuvo, which is vastly more likely. Based on my own extensive testing Denuvo *never* performs writes or reads to the disk after it have loaded the offline token from the drive either, since it stores everything it needs in the memory.

2) "List of games formerly using Denuvo"

That section lists three games as having "removed" Denuvo, which haven't happened. The sources for those claims are random blog posts discussing how the game have been cracked. Please remove them from said list:

• Football Manager 2019
• Assassin's Creed Odyssey
• Hitman 2

3) Hitman 2 and "Bad Crack"

The status of this "bad crack" is open for question unless something have changed. Hitman 2 was always designed to have a free prologue, and this fact when put in relation to FCKDRM's crack only granting access to said prologue mission makes it seem less of a crack and more of a... well.. early access to the existing free prologue of the game. FCKDRM's own comment mentions how they only used a general Steam emulator, and as such they basically just bypassed the release date restriction of the game and accessed the demo (the free prologue mission) itself and nothing more. I would recommend changing the "status" of said crack to No instead.

Aemony (talk) 20:47, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

How does it work in detail?

Didn't find any information about it in the article. --134.3.80.238 (talk) 09:34, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Just Cause 4

https://www.xrel.to/game-nfo/1717357/Just-Cause-4-CPY.html Does anyone got a source why it is tagged as Bad Crack? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.93.102.210 (talk) 23:14, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Nope maybe wrong tag "Bad crack". --i'm invincible 15:44, 12 December 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nevertrashtalk (talk • contribs)

Poorly sourced material

It was no reliable sources given for whether the game was "cracked" or not. xrel is a community based website where everyone can upload nfo files (if you have a user account), one could fake such an nfo file. It is therefore not a reliable source as of WP:UGC. I do not see how this can be an accurate proof whether a game is cracked or not since this site does not offer any cracks, they just have (easy to fake) nfo files. Notice about not reliable source exist since August 2016 but has been ignored by authors. That information are reliable and accurate is the base for everything else. Of course if would be useful if there were reliable information whether a game is cracked or not. But these do not exist right now. And just making something up is no solution either. So I had no other choice than to take action and remove this questionable information, resp. to keep the column but remove the unreliable sources there (which were most of them). But please if you have any other provable information about this xrel site than I have let me know. --TheRandomIP (talk)

then Why even bother to list cracked or not if only news can be reliable source? might as well just remove that useless column, people who are interested can just google to find out if it's cracked — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.125.190.97 (talk)

Agreed with the previous poster; currently, the column, at best, does not add much to the article, and, at worst, misinforms (since the lack of an entry in the column may suggest that a crack never existed). Since a poorly source list that ends up nigh-empty once WP:UGC is enforced seems more like cruft to me than anything else, I've went ahead and removed the column from both tables in the article. It's not Wikipedia's job to inform users whether a software has been cracked or not; there are plenty ways for them to find that out on their own, and it does not have much of a bearing on how Denuvo functions as software. --ThePaSch (talk) 12:28, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Totally agree. In my initial edits I even removed the column completely but then some other editor said he thinks this is "valuable information". So I thought he might be satisfied if I keep the column but remove the poorly sourced information only as he might be willing to find better sources for the missing entries then. Turns out he wasn't. He wasn't interested in accurate information at all. Pascal40, thanks for finally removing the column which was my initially preferred solution. --TheRandomIP (talk)

Surely it is relevant to a page about a particular DRM technology to include information on whether or not it actually performed its intended purpose or not, i.e. not broken. Similarly to how a page about "high-tech" security locks on doors would include information on whether or not these were easily defeated (and when) and thus informing the reader that 'No, this isn't a solution'. Without information on the downsides and failure to perform its function, this page reads more like a PR brochure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.211.6.107 (talk)

I welcome you to find properly sourced information on the security/effectiveness of Denuvo! I principally agree that such information is relevant; what *isn't* relevant is listing every single house that has this type of lock built into its front door and noting whether that particular lock has been picked by anyone or not; much less if the source of that information is flimsy and likely biased against the lockmaker. --ThePaSch (talk) 14:55, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

May I point out to you that Denuvo#History already contains some information about possible cracks for Denuvo? You could expand these section and instead of listing every single game just describe which versions of Denuvo have been cracked yet. Denuvo is constantly being updated with more advanced techniques and then it takes a while until this new techniques are cracked. One could describe something like "after so and so many days / weeks, group XYZ was the first one to successfully crack Denuvo version x.y". Look how useful this is compared to just a stupid table. It is always easy and cheap to just make a table but much harder yet often more useful to the reader if you summarize the main points in text form. I think this is the way to go for this article since we anyway will not be able to find credible sources for every single game. And as pointed out earlier, just listing some games may create a false impression. And as said above, that information are reliable and accurate is the base for everything else. You cannot just add unreliable information then just add a tag "warning: the following information might be wrong". That's just stupid. How can this be useful for anyone? I know a lot of people don't care for truth anymore, this phenomenon is called "post-truth". But here in Wikipedia this is not how things are done. --TheRandomIP (talk)

If information is poorly sourced it should be marked as such not totally deleted, that's just irresponsible. Wherever game was cracked or not IS valuable information. So in my (random's guy) opinion it should be preserved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.242.96.31 (talk)

See above. --ThePaSch (talk) 14:55, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Some of the information in the column was properly sourced. Primary source citations are not allowed, but in my opinions properly sourced citations should be restored. Falderol (talk) 16:20, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

This is getting a huge amount of attention on reddit and people are questioning the impartiality of Wikipedia users hiding the status of the DRM circumvention efforts in Denuvo applications. --Bisaknospus (talk) 15:07, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

This should have no bearing on whether the content stays or not; if public opinion was a criterion on what gets to stay and what has to go, WP would be a very different place. Additionally, the subreddit in question isn't exactly known for its own impartiality, especially regarding this topic (or DRM in general). As I've stated above, adding a (properly sourced) section outlining this particular solution's effectiveness (or lack of it) isn't something anyone could conceivably be against, but the previous version of this list was getting rather WP:LISTCRUFT-y. Whether any particular game has been cracked or not is irrelevant to the software's function - if a proper source can be found for its effectiveness 'in general', then I'd highly support its addition to the article.--ThePaSch (talk) 15:14, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

I think the best we can do is to educate people how to find credible sources and how to use these to expand the article. Someone on reddit posted my initial posting and most people actually followed this argumentation and an interesting discussion about how to find credible sources in general has been started. --TheRandomIP (talk)

Yes, the column may be not useful(and quite unreliable, there is no way to link the nfo directly from the cracker themselves or confirm its validity). But one can compromise by referring to a reliable source of cracked games count in the description, albeit it may need to be updated if it's too outdated, and there are not many (reliable) sources counting how many games cracked. How many games get cracked vs uncracked is quite a measure on how efficient it's. Another way is having game count table based on each Denuvo "version" rather than whether each game is cracked to avoid cruft problem, it is still hard to find a reliable source though, and the difference of versions is unknown. Ssd21345 (talk) 15:43, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Maybe only include cracks that cracked a new version or got significiant media attention (from credible sources)

Yes! That's the best solution IMHO. --TheRandomIP (talk)

Edit : and if you keep all games, use predb.pw as source instead of xrel, as they dont use usersubmitted content and instead scrape from scene PRE logs.143.179.86.164 (talk) 16:16, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

@Majikthise.uk: I think we all agreed that the version you just restored is the "worst of both worlds". Also discussion has not been finished. Can someone else revert please as I have done too many reverts already? I think as of now, a lot of people support the "keep table out" solution. --TheRandomIP (talk)

I, for one, support the inclusion of the material. Benjamin (talk) 17:08, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, what the heck Wikipedia users? There's many ways to cite that a DRM crack exists. Look at NFO files that come with the cracks, for example. Or perhaps interview the release teams to explain, in layman's terms, how these cracks are achieved. There are a million different ways on explaining, with citations, why DRM like Denuvo can be cracked easily. Removing content from an article only makes things worse. 131.123.50.162 (talk) 18:35, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Please direct your attention to the History section of the article, where plenty of actual and timely information about previous Denuvo cracks can be found. That section has remained completely intact; the only thing that was removed was a WP:LISTCRUFT-y enumeration of every single game's crack status, which is WP:TOOMUCH (and was poorly sourced to boot). I honestly do not know how anyone can truthfully claim to take away a positive impression of the product after reading the article.--ThePaSch (talk) 18:46, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

And? DRM and cracking are terms that can't be separated. Giving the cracked status of a game using the DRM of the main article is good information due to how much cracking games is talked about when discussing DRM. Again, use citations like NFO files, interviews, articles from websites like crackwatch.com, and so on. While I agree that there should be more research done on a piece of the article being going public, I think the idea of having a cracked column for the list of games would be necessary information to add. 18:59, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

NFO files are not reliable sources on Wikipedia. I'm sorry, but some information and scene data simply is not viable as sources on Wikipedia. You can read WP:RS for more information. Wikipedia cannot conduct it's own interviews to prove things (Wikipedia does have a news project, but it is unreliable for use directly on Wikipedia). As ThePaSch notes, the article goes into quite indepth explaination of how quickly cracks have been released and how they have been faster and faster. The column is not necessary to illustrate that. -- ferret (talk) 18:50, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

• Remove the column. It's not Wikipedia job or place to catalog the cracking or pirating of products. In the specific context of the history of the DRM solution and cracks that have broken each version, the history section does a more than adequate job of detailing this (and likely needs a little trimming). Reliable sourcing for all games being cracked or not will likely never exist, nor does Wikipedia need to catalog such anyway. We're not a directory for people to check if a game is cracked or not. As typically in these types of flair ups with Reddit attention, this content belongs on one of the PC Gaming dedicated wikis. -- ferret (talk) 17:14, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Assuming people agree to the inclusion of a 'cracked' column (personally support it but we'll see) The current compromise is atrocious. While it might make sense for the editors involved at the time, from an outside perspective you've listed falsely that 118 games are currently uncracked. Should have left the No's in at least while people slowly populated the table back up with more reliable sources. AiSard (talk) 17:56, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

The "current compromise" (at this exact moment) is that the column has been removed entirely, which avoids the issue of a false representation of whether something has been cracked, or not, or is simply omitted. -- ferret (talk) 18:03, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm curious as to why you think that this article currently conveys that 118 games are uncracked? It's saying that those games utilize Denuvo protection, which is factual. I remain of the opinion that Wikipedia should not be an index of what software is cracked or not. It's perfectly sensible to add sections of text describing how few games remain that do not have some kind of bypass to that protection, but, again, listing the crack status of software is not encyclopedic information. I'm honestly curious what value you think can be derived from having such information in the article.--ThePaSch (talk) 18:04, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

I believe that removing the column, while adding in an additional section noting the ineffectiveness of the DRM and its vulnerability to cracking might be a potentially optimal solution. Ferret is right by saying that the crack state of a game using Denuvo would be more appropriate on a PC gaming dedicated wiki, but the information's existence on the main article also had a secondary function of providing insight as to the DRM's viability and usefulness. Being an encyclopedic resource, it's also important to show this aspect of the prevalence of cracking, while avoiding the clutter and more specialized information as to which specific games were cracked. 2600:1700:E9F0:7A60:B0EB:3BB7:C2EE:7743 (talk) 18:26, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

From the perspective of someone heavily interested in release groups, along with analysis of the last decade or two of DRM; the main function DRM serves seems to be keeping the game from being pirated on the first few days of release. Does go hand in hand with the insights of DRM being viable, though it's not much of a long-term solution now and mainly serves to, again, prevent the game from being pirated week one of a game's release to net in the most value of a game. 131.123.50.162 (talk) 18:39, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Basically 95% of the article's prose text is dedicated to coverage of the DRM being cracked or causing user issues. I think the viability and usefulness (or rather, the lack of) is quite well illustrated already as a result. A lot of people seem to be fighting for the column without even reading the History and Controversy sections. -- ferret (talk) 18:29, 1 May 2019 (UTC)