Talk:CJ Hopkins

Biography: Arts and Entertainment Stub‑class

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
Stub	This article has been rated as Stub-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
	This article is supported by the arts and entertainment work group.

The following Wikipedia contributor may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view.

Königubu (talk · contribs)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on CJ Hopkins. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 15:07, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Autobio concerns

Looking at the history of the article, it appears that much of the info was added without any source. Mainly, multiple photos have all been uploaded to commons by Königubu, spanning several years, and this editor has also added unsourced personal information, such as birth data and birth place. The article also emphasized WP:PEACOCK phrases like "award winning", and this lead has been copied or closely paraphrased by Hopkins on his own bios on his websites etc. This suggests a close familiarity with the subject, which is at best a conflict of interest. It also suggests an attempt to use Wikipedia for promotion, which is prohibited. Grayfell (talk) 21:23, 31 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Linking Wikipedia:Help_desk#CJ_Hopkins. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:39, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What parts of this page fail to present "a neutral point of view" or suggest "an attempt to use Wikipedia for promotion"? If none, remove warning tag. Königubu (talk) 15:04, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

IMO it's not glaring as the article looks now. Possibly the Zone 23 sentence which should have a good secondary source or be removed, and "His writings have appeared in ColdType, The Unz Review, OffGuardian, CounterPunch and other publications." which seems pretty uninteresting (and unreffed) but could also be "saved" with a good secondary source. And thank you for not removing the tag yourself, that would be improper. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:17, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging Grayfell since you added the thing. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:27, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions: (1) remove "Zone 23" sentence from "Later works" ... leave it listed under "Novels" with the ISBN (2) also remove "teaches workshops" sentence. It is not related to notability as author. (3) revise "writing has appeared" sentence to read "His political satire and commentary has appeared in ..." and use CounterPunch archive (https://www.counterpunch.org/author/cjhop0098/) and Unz archive (https://www.unz.com/author/c-j-hopkins/) as refs. Königubu (talk) 16:06, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also, if you are going for bone dry, remove recently added sentence in lead, "Among his works are ..." Königubu (talk) 16:16, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I added that sentence, I think it's ok per WP:LEAD. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:58, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the autobio tag I added, and have removed the novel and workshop lines, as these both seem like good suggestions. I have rephrased the book's entry in the bibliography to indicate the book is self-published. I am not doing to to be petty, I really do think this is significant and useful for readers who are researching this author, based on past experience. The imprint name Snoggsworthy, Swaine & Cormorant is the author's own, and it has apparently only been used for this book. Readers looking for this book, or looking for context about this book, are more likely to be confused by this detail than informed. Grayfell (talk) 20:22, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It is petty, and it reads as such. Your animosity towards Hopkins is made clear on the Identity Politics page. Unless you propose to add this note to every author who has ever published their own work, and band that has its own record label, and organization that publishes under its own imprint (and there are many), then it reads as an attempted insult, and makes Wikipedia look unprofessional, and biased. Königubu (talk) 20:36, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We are pretty biased against selfpublished stuff, see WP:SELFPUBLISH, it's not a Hopkins thing. When his book has coverage like The Joy of Cooking or Fifty Shades of Grey we'll happily have an article about it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:12, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. This book is not supported by any reliable sources. Whether or not to include self-published books in bibliographies is often disputed, because they are not obviously noteworthy. As for this edit summary, Marcel Proust, Mark Twain and William Blake are no-longer self-published. Further, their works are discussed by countless reliable, independent sources. If you know of such sources for Hopkins, let's see them.

Further, if you know of any articles about self-published creators which lack sources, please let me know so I can have a look at them. Grayfell (talk) 21:26, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, do you have any source on year of birth or full name? Selfpublished may be good enough here, per WP:BLPSELFPUB. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:30, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, of course, Grayfell, there are many examples on Wikipedia of authors publishing under their own imprints. For example, Jeffrey St. Clair, who runs CounterPunch, which also publishes his books, which you do not tag as "self-published." Here's the list on his Wikipedia page:

collapsed for space

   Whiteout: The CIA, Drugs and the Press (1998) (with Alexander Cockburn) ISBN 978-1-85984-258-4
   A Field Guide to Environmental Bad Guys (1999) (with James Ridgeway) ISBN 978-1-56025-153-8
   Five Days That Shook The World: The Battle for Seattle and Beyond (2000) (with Alexander Cockburn) ISBN 978-1-85984-779-4
   Al Gore: A User's Manual (2000) (with Alexander Cockburn) ISBN 978-1-85984-803-6
   The Politics of Anti-Semitism (2003) (co-editor with Alexander Cockburn)
   Been Brown So Long, It Looked Like Green to Me: The Politics of Nature (2003) ISBN 978-1-56751-258-8
   Serpents in the Garden: Liaisons with Culture and Sex (2004) (co-editor with Alexander Cockburn) ISBN 978-1-902593-94-4
   Grand Theft Pentagon :Tales of Corruption and Profiteering in the War on Terror (2005) ISBN 978-1-56751-336-3
   Born Under a Bad Sky: Notes from the Dark Side of the Earth (2007) ISBN 978-1-904859-70-3
   Red State Rebels: Tales of Grassroots Resistance in the Heartland (2008) (Co-editor with Joshua Frank) ISBN 978-1-56025-153-8
   Hopeless: Barack Obama and the Politics of Illusion (2013) (Co-editor with Joshua Frank) ISBN 978-1849351102
   Killing Travons: An Anthology of American Violence (2014) (Co-editor with Kevin Alexander Gray and JoAnn Wypijewski) ISBN 978-0-69221-399-5
   Bernie and the Sandernistas: Field Notes From a Failed Revolution (2016) CreateSpace, ISBN 1-539-032-728

St. Clair's uses the "CounterPunch" imprint as Hopkins uses the "Snoggsworthy" imprint (as the Penguin Group uses the "Viking" imprint). Both St. Clair and Hopkins are established authors, whose works have been published by other publishers (as was Alexander Cockburn, whose books published under the "CounterPunch" imprint you also do not tag as self published). And rightfully so. An imprint is a trade name. Quoting from Wikipedia's "Imprint (trade name)" page ...

″A single publishing company may have multiple imprints, with the different imprints often used by the publisher to market works to different demographic consumer segments. For example, the objective of Viking—an imprint of the Penguin Group—is "[t]o publish a strictly limited list of good nonfiction, such as biography, history and works on contemporary affairs, and distinguished fiction with some claim to permanent importance rather than ephemeral popular interest.″

St. Clair, Cockburn, and Hopkins are all established authors, whose works have been published by other publishers, and who are entitled to use their own imprints without them being labelled "self-published," just as the Penguin Group is.

Again, it is clear to anyone who reads this talk page, and reads the Identity Politics talk page, that you, Grayfell, are too biased to be editing this page. That said, it's your platform. If Hopkins' novel is "not noteworthy" according to official Wikipedia policy, you and Gråbergs Gråa Sång should remove all references to it from the page, rather than playing games.Königubu (talk) 23:09, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think you should read WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Just because certain Wikipedia pages are written one way, it doesn't mean another gets to ignore policy. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 23:19, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think you should read what I wrote and address the points it makes, or admit that there is no "policy", other than whatever an editor feels like doing. Kind regards, Königubu (talk) 23:24, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Gråbergs Gråa Sång, if you're honestly just looking for a citation that isn't a reader review or a book blogger, there is a review here ... http://www.unz.com/kbarrett/civil-war-ii-coming/ and there should be one in Naked Capitalism relatively soon. Königubu (talk) 00:14, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The example Königubu provides is Jeffrey St. Clair, which is already tagged for source issues, and has been for over ten years. I have worked on the publisher info for that article to indicate publishers. For reference, Unz Review lacks a positive reputation for editorial oversight or fact-checking, so it is not a reliable, independent source. Sources like this are poor for establishing the significance of specific details. In this case, I don't think this really needs anything beyond a primary source (such as the ISBN number), since it is not an extraordinary claim that the book exists and was written by Hopkins. Grayfell (talk) 05:19, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Title and ISBN alone would be fine. The issue is the "self-published" parenthetical you added. The question is simple. Either Hopkins' novel is "notable" enough to be listed under its proper imprint (like any other novel), without the condescending "self-published" parenthetical, or it is not. If it is not "notable", because it is "self-published", then it should be completely removed from the page, along with references to Hopkins as a "novelist". Please do one or the other. Königubu (talk) 07:47, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]