Talk:Israeli apartheid

This article was nominated for deletion on May 29, 2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

This article was nominated for deletion on July 15, 2006. The result of the discussion was speedy keep.

This article was nominated for deletion on August 8, 2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Archives
1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8
9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16
17

Ten Thirteen Heribert Adam and Kagila Moodley quotes?

The Use of the Term section is heavily skewed towards a pro-Israeli POV. The quotes are, as Jayjg uses the term, highly "cherry-picked" from that source and overweighted to that source. I will work on making this more NPOV and focus on other sources and quotes that are much needed for accuracy and balance. Please, no disruption towards this effort, and let's try to be fair here. I would suggest 2 items:

1) That Heribert Adam and Moodley are represented more clearly and NPOV, and not "cherry-picked" to represent the POV of pro-Israeli editors. Adam has said that "his interest lies in how both sides in the Middle East conflict can reach a fair and just peace and his claim was backed by an analysis that uncovered both similarities and differences between the South African and Middle East models." [1]. He's not just a source for those favoring "Criticism" only.

2) We have too many Heribert Adam quotes period.Kiyosaki 07:33, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Thoughts? Thanks,Kiyosaki 08:33, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Adam and Moodley are practically the only academics who have actually studied this, so they should be leaned on fairly heavily. The quotes in question represent their views fairly, particularly about the term itself and its usage. Further comments which make uncivil references to other editors will be completely ignored. Given the history of your edits, you should assume that your proposals are all universally opposed unless you get consensus here first. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:34, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Jayjg, given the history of your edits you have not shown us that you are NPOV, especially when it comes to subject about Israel. Kindly stop making personal attacks. I do appreciate that you addressed the subject at hand for once! The quotes reflected from this source are "cherry-picked", to use a term that you know, to represent a POV that is not neutral. You have to look at the big picture, not the one you might particularly want.

I think the mistake you are making on this page is to tell us what your personal opinions are, when all we're supposed to discuss and write about is what relevant, reliable sources say about this concept. Sorry, but if Adam and Moodley are going to be used as a source, they have to be represented fairly and accurately as to what their views are. Removing RS info from Adam and Moodley's study, that one doesn't happen to like, is POV editing, Kindly help us make this POV. After all, why is this article tagged "POV"? Are you suggesting it doesn't represent the Zionist POV that you support? That's not true. Thanks.Kiyosaki 02:16, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Kiyosaki, I would encourage you to read the policies you seem to be so fond of quoting. Jayjg has not personally attacked you or really even come close. You however have consistency refused to engage in civil and appropriate discussion. Despite your endless accusations there is no question that the references you continually complain about are acceptable as per WP:RS.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 02:28, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Sure, I will. You could kindly review WP:Civility and henceforth please discuss the subject article and issues at hand instead of the endless personal issues Jayjg and you might have with editors. It is beginning to appear to be a delay tactic. Let's all stick to the subject. Thanks much.

Question: Therefore, if we have 13 Adam and Moodley quotes, they can't all be pro-Israel POV. Do you disagree? Did you read the discussion above? Did you read the Adam quote that was reverted without discussion? What is the issue with it? Let's please discuss it already.Kiyosaki 02:32, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The quotes are neutral and relevant; you seem to see "pro-Israel" in just about everything. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:24, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Jayjg, the quotes are not neutral. You are wrong again. Kiyosaki 11:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

There is a difference between an assertion and an argument. Are you claiming that Adam and Moodley are themselves "pro-Israel"? Do you have any evidence that the quotes themselves are "pro-Israel"? Jayjg ^(talk) 22:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Um, thanks for the "drive-by" comment Jayjg. You have not read the sources nor done the research. Adam is NPOV. Kindly attempt to make Wikipedia NPOV, not what your Hebrew POV wants. We understand that you are a Hebrew and Israeli orientered editor, however you must follow WP:NPOV not what you wish. ThanksKiyosaki 09:59, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you explain to all of us what exactly you mean by "Hebrew pov".- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 10:11, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Kindly review in detail: [2] Thanks much.Kiyosaki 10:49, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

• Kiyosaki: "Hebrew POV" is an offensive term. JayJG's contributions are unquestionably biased in favour of Israel (IMO), but this does not mean that they represent a "Jewish POV". "Israel, the state" and "Jews, the people" are not the same, and it bears repeating that many of Israel's most vocal and effective critics are themselves Jewish.

• Please withdraw your comment. CJCurrie 01:50, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I've just discovered this. Even assuming good faith, I think that Kiyosaki has some serious explaining to do if s/he wants to be taken seriously on this forum. CJCurrie 02:26, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

It's been obvious for a while. It's a shame he had to be so explicit before it was noticed by all. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:22, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, bear in mind that I hadn't come across this person before. I knew he was erratic, but I didn't realize he was a racist until the recent posts. CJCurrie 00:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean. You seem to be implying that racism is an issue but not antisemitism, or that the latter matters less when appearing to come from the left, rather than the right. It has been obvious for weeks to just about everyone on this page that he was a deeply problematic editor in that regard, and most of us didn't know who he was either until a few days ago. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:39, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I consider anti-Semitism to be a form of racism. Kiyosaki has proven himself to be an anti-Semite, and is therefore a racist. Clear now? CJCurrie 22:35, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

It's clearer, yes, though I'd take issue with the idea of anti-Semitism being a form of racism, given that Jews can come from any racial group, but I take your point. My point was simply that it was obvious to quite a few editors very early on that we were dealing with anti-Semitism, either from the left or the right. I think you were blinded to it, or saw it but didn't count what he was saying as anti-Semitism, because you believed it to be coming from the left. Not just you but a few others too. As I said elsewhere, I'm not saying this in order to harp on about it, but in an effort to make the serious point that editors are, or were, being supported here and elsewhere who perhaps should not be, because their issue is Jews and not Israeli policies as such. It is sometimes difficult to spot the distinction, but when the level of anti-Israel vitriol reaches the crescendo displayed by Kiyosaki, and when decent sources are being rejected just because the user disagrees with them, then the unpleasant possibility suggests itself strongly, as it did in this case quite early on. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how any of that was implied by CJCurrie anywhere. In any case, is it really relevant to this talkpage now that the user in question has presumably been banned? Can we perhaps return to the questions raised below? Thanks. Hornplease 21:18, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Then please do explain what he meant. I think it is indeed relevant that this page was hijacked by an anti-Semite for over a month who was supported by some editors. I'm making the point not in order to harp on about it, but in the hope that it can be avoided in the future, by certain editors making themselves more aware of that possibility, and of the signs. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:22, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The page was hijacked by a bigot because the bigot in question chose, by and large, intially to attempt to keep himself within what, given the assumption of good faith, are the parameters of civilised discourse. As long as an editor is raising points that appear to be answerable reasonably, I dont think we should be avoiding the discussion, whether or not they're racists. I, personally, might think that the article is unbalanced as it stands; Kiyosaki was going further than I would, but his motives in doing so are irrelevant to me as long as he keeps to WP policy in terms of interaction with editors and content guidelines. I think the same for you as well; trying to discern why someone is saying something on controversial articles can give one a headache, so I dont do it, merely looking at what they actually say.

Frankly, you should do the same. Can we start by ending this conversation and focusing on content? Particularly the question I have raised below?

Hornplease 23:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that editors need only stick to the policies, but he didn't. It was obvious that he was a bigot and a bad editor, yet some people here supported him because they thought they agreed with his politics. If we would all stick only to insisting the content policies be adhered to, and not give disruptive editors leeway because we agree with them, we might actually turn out a decent article at some point. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I can't see a question from you below. Can you repeat it, please? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

With respect, Slim, Kiyosaki's bigotry was not obvious until very recently. Your previous remark about being on the lookout for "unpleasant possibilities" was fair. Your assumption that that "some people here supported him" while knowing he was a bigot, is not. (For my part, I didn't even bother to read many of his posts.) CJCurrie 01:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Kiyosaki's disruptiveness, bad editing, and attacks on other editors were certainly visible from the very start. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

It was obvious to me that he was a bigot and a bad editor. If someone with that frame of mind and poor editing and research skills had turned up and started adding Zionist POV, you'd have come down on him like a ton of bricks. But because you agreed with his POV, you overlooked the bad behavior. That's the kind of thing I'm asking people to stop. I agree with Hornplease that what matters is how people write and use sources (assuming I understood Horn correctly); so when we see someone not doing that, we should oppose them, even if we agree or think we agree with their political views. If we all do that, a good article will eventually emerge, but if we don't, it definitely won't. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a serious question, Slim: where was the evidence of bigotry prior to his recent posts? It's possible that I missed something; if so, I'd appreciate it if you'd point it out.

I don't disagree that he was always a bad editor, but my initial suspicion was that he couldn't write English very well. I hadn't come across the "Disruptive Apartheid Editor" before, didn't recognize the style, and was prepared to make some allowances for what seemed like unfamiliarity with the language. CJCurrie 01:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Even if it was possible to pretend he didn't harbor any bigotry, it was plain as day from the very beginning that he was increibly disruptive. He took up pages and pages of discussion based on ridiculous claims that reliable source were either non-notable or to "pro-Israel" to be acceptable. He persisted in reverting to his ridiculous version dozens of times and accused anyone who reverted him of being part of a nefarious conspiracy. When so many people did not say anything, it appeared that they were giving tacit approval to his actions. Indeed, it seems likely that what gave him the courage to continue was the sometimes explicit support he received on his talk page from users like Tiamut and Aminz.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 02:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the problem is that we define bigotry differently, CJ. He was obviously an anti-Israel bigot, and I use the word "bigot" because of the extremism and irrationality, which set off alarm bells. The bad editing wasn't only connected to poor English; when he starts saying that Heribert Adam isn't a good enough academic (even though he specializes in precisely this area), then you know there's a serious problem. If an extreme right-wing pro-Zionist editor arrived and started deleting good material and good sources, and generally causing chaos, you'd be really fed up with me if I simply averted my gaze and left you to fight him alone. Similarly, when extreme (apparently) left-wing editors turn up and behave badly, my hope is that you'll help to fend them off. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't rush to assume that we define bigotry differently, and I'm still waiting for proof that he was "obviously an anti-Israeli bigot" from the start. (Some page diffs might help, if you have them.) Btw, you weren't exactly fighting him alone. CJCurrie 02:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say I was fighting him alone. You want diffs showing his anti-Israel bigotry?? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I've already said that I didn't read all (or even most) of his posts. As I said above, "It's possible that I missed something; if so, I'd appreciate it if you'd point it out." If he legitimately was a bigot from the start, I'd like to know. CJCurrie 02:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

What Slim is trying to do here is to use Kiyosaki's manifest bigotry to discredit every position he aligned himself with on this page. She is also trying to stain CJ with Kiyosaki's bigotry, however lightly. Before CJ outed Kiyosaki as a bigot, Slim was insinuating that Kiyosaki was CJ's sock puppet. All of these are versions of guilt-by-association, a cheap and discredited mode of ad hominem argument.--G-Dett 23:21, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Really! I'm always amazed by people who can read other people's minds and who purport to know their motives. And particularly, you G-Dett, with only a few dozen edits, and after not having edited for two months, you suddenly feel the need to jump into this talk page and project onto SlimVirgin what you "know" to be her mind. Very fascinating. --MPerel ^{( talk | contrib)} 23:49, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Compelling oppo research, MPerel. You must have found much to be amazed and fascinated by in Slim's recent comments to CJ – "If someone with that frame of mind and poor editing and research skills had turned up and started adding Zionist POV, you'd have come down on him like a ton of bricks. But because you agreed with his POV, you overlooked the bad behavior" etc. etc. You kept awfully quiet about that; perhaps you were struck dumb by amazement and fascination.--G-Dett 00:43, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

CJCurrie did not "out" Kiyosaki. A number of other editors did, and found evidence of his previous accounts. I have never implied that Kiyosaki was CJ's sockpuppet; show me where I did that. You're right that K's anti-Israel bigotry is discredited, but it was already. It is because of the bigotry that K is discredited, not because of him that the bigotry is discredited. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:17, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

SlimVirgin is correct, to a point: she never said or implied that Kiyosaki was my sockpuppet. Whether or not I "outed" Kiyosaki is a matter of conjecture, though I notice he wasn't banned until after I posted the page diffs here. Perhaps I deserve an assist, but I'm not inclined to press the point. Meanwhile, I'll reiterate my request for page diffs demonstrating that Kiyosaki's bigotry was always manifest. CJCurrie 05:29, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

My own impression was that it took a while for Kiyosaki's bigotry to become evident, although he was obviously a sockpuppet from the earliest days. What got me thinking was this: I reverted Kiyosaki several times, probably about as much as Humus did and a lot more than Crzrussian did. Kiyosaki questioned my reversions but he didn't attack me the way he did with Humus, Crzrussian, and (especially) SlimVirgin. He tried to drag several editors into "mediation" but not me. And I could only conclude that his grudge with these people had something to do with what was in their contribution histories outside this article, and/or with what was on their user pages but not on my user page. It was creepy for me just to see the pattern, and I was the one not being targeted. Kla'quot 08:05, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Here's SV's sentence that I read as implying that Kiyosaki is your sockpuppet: "I see Kiyosaki has just given you a barnstar. You seem to get a lot of support from sockpuppets, CJ." People set up sockpuppets in order to support their own positions. If they want to support other editors' positions I cannot imagine why on earth they'd do it through a sockpuppet instead of their real accounts. So I really can't understand SV's sarcasm in this sentence except as implying that you are praising yourself by way of a proxy.

Perhaps you do deserve an assist, but that's not my goal in chiming in here. My point is that SV is trying to leverage Kiyosaki's bigotry for all that it's worth, in order to foreclose every serious dispute on this page. Her question-begging response to me ("it is because of the bigotry that K is discredited," etc.) only underscores the point. Kiyosaki has clearly staked out some absurd positions here, for example in his objections about Ian Baruma and others. But these are instances of lawyerly cynicism and opportunism, not bigotry; and they are in any case only the mirror-image of the objections (on the part of SlimVirgin, Jayjg, et al) to figures like Desmond Tutu and Winnie Mandela, whose moral authority on the topic at hand is very obvious. --G-Dett 18:14, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

(unindenting and replying to G-Dett) You would have to stetch Slimvirgin's statements pretty damn far in order to state that she implied that Kiyosaki was CJ's sockpuppet. You would have to stetch her words farther than any rational person would in order to suggest she is deviously trying to discredit her oppenents using their past support for Kiyosaki. I find it hard to believe that someone would even attempt to suggest such a thing considering the fact that this discussion has never left this single talk page.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 23:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

To be very clear: if Slim and CJ are both saying there was no insinuation about the sockpuppet being CJ's, then the matter is fully settled in my eyes, and I apologize for my misinterpretation. On the other hand, if you're telling me that that the crack "you seem to get a lot of support from sockpuppets" is not open to this sort of (mis)interpretation, then it's you who's doing the stretching.

As for Slim's comments following K's noxious crack about "Hebrew POV," they quite clearly attempt to discredit the positions he advanced en toto with the stain of his bigotry. And when she writes that "it is indeed relevant that this page was hijacked by an anti-Semite for over a month who was supported by some editors," and indicates that CJ is one of these, it is very clear that she is flirting with the logic of guilt by association. Guilt by association refers to the unwarranted discrediting both of arguments and of persons; the problem with it is not that it's "devious," but that it's a logical fallacy.--G-Dett 00:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Slim has never claimed that the past support for Kiyosaki has any bearing on anyone's argument rather she is saying that the support he recieved encouraged him to continue with his extremely disruptive "crusade".- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 00:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Reorganization of the Allegations

We could reorganize and help the reader compartmentalize this article to organize the sources of the allegations by country. For instance: South African views, Israeli views, Palestinian and Arab views, American views, Other. South African views, in particular, should be covered in a less cluttered fashion. Kiyosaki 04:16, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Apartheid conditions leading to a South African style one-state solution

Kiyosaki, you're engaged in original research. You can't add material that you believe is related to the allegations, otherwise this will end up as your personal essay. You must find sources who discuss "allegations of Israeli apartheid" and then add what they say, but only what they say: not what you think they imply, or what you think is a related topic. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 05:41, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

This is fine: "Pappe has stated that "the results of 56 years of continuous ethnic cleansing, discrimination, a whole legal and practical apparatus is the definition of apartheid", and that the Jewish National Fund is the "main agency of apartheid in Israel"." But you can't use this quote as an excuse to discuss the one-state solution. You could add the material to Binational solution instead. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 05:44, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Slim, it's not original research or "my personal essay". That's an unfair characterization. I think you need to read through what he says. He discusses Israel apartheid at length in the link I provided you, and his views on Israeli apartheid are driectly tied to why he doesn't support a Yettwo-state solution, and he states that he prefers the one-state solution. How is this not clear? You should not remove properly cited, relevant material without explanation until you have read through everything. OK? Assume good faith. PS Can you explain the reverts of all the other properly cited, relevant material that was deleted without discussion? I really would appreciate that.

Plus I see the header for "One State solution" remains completely and unfairly deleted and the info about Ali Abunimah and his book too. Can you explain? Are you saying that is not tied to Israeli Apartheid also? Kindly respond. Thanks. Thanks. Kiyosaki 06:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

If he discusses his views on "allegations of Israeli apartheid," then those are the parts of his book/article that you must discuss and quote. You can't go wandering off into other things he talks about. It's partly the way you're writing that isn't appropriate, but it's mostly that you're trying to turn this into an essay on what you see as prejudice against Arabs in Israel. But that's not what the article is about. It's only about this specific allegation. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 07:15, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

No, Slim I not turing this into an "essay" about anything. That is an unfair characterization and wrong, kindly refrain from making false statements. You are attempting to limit properly cited, relevant material without explanation that is against your pro-Israeli POV. This article is about "allegations of Israeli apartheid" and Ali Abunimah and Ilan Pappe have made those allegations and they support a one-state solution and you removed all of it. Perhaps you could review Help:Reverting and the section on "Dont's" in particular. The "Do's" says: "If you feel the edit is unsatisfactory, improve it rather than simply reverting or deleting it." Thanks much. Kindly let me work on the section. You could reveiw this and help: [3] Kiyosaki 07:34, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

(The following is not an endorsement of Kiyosaki's behaviour): We do discuss in this article who are the players in the debate, and we briefly describe their political views in addition to their comments about "Israeli apartheid." The fact that people who favour the analogy come from all parts of the political spectrum, and have such diverse views about how to resolve the conflict, is interesting. The allegations are made in order to effect political ends, and it seems appropriate to describe what those desired ends are. Does that make sense? Kla'quot 07:56, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. We should say who makes the allegation and, if they explain why, we should include that. We can't get into what their various beliefs about the future of Israel are, because that has nothing to do with the allegations they're making. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:24, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

What behaviour are you specifically refering to? Can you illustrate with links? Kindly review [4], and why shouldn't this heading exist? Also, I do not believe that people who use the analogy have "political" goals, what politcal goals does Ilan Pappe have? What political goals does Desmond Tutu have, or Jimmy Carter. I don't think it's political. The article should cover what the topic heading is: "allegations of Israeli Apartheid". As it stands, much of my research has been deleted by those with a POV. How can we build the article when eveything gets reverted that a team of pro-Israel allies doesn't like? That's not proper vetting. It becomes their "essay" as the quotes cherry-picked from Heribert Adam show (see above heading). Thanks.Kiyosaki 08:08, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, there are people that believe apartheid conditions warrant a one-state solution similar to South Africa's solution, do you not believe this should be covered and those views expressed? Yes or No? If yes, then kindly restore the section with sources that you deleted. Help to improve it. If no, then please explain why you believe that. Also, the above Talk sections have at least 5 other questions left unanswered, can you review the Talk page, before reverting without discussion? Thanks.Kiyosaki 08:30, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

This article is about allegations of Israel apartheid, so the material in the article and sources used must deal with allegations of Israeli apartheid, not speculative proposals for Israel's future. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:21, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Jayjg, you make no sense. The article contains a section about Israeli apartheid and Israel's future related to a two-state solution. Why not also cover those that discuss a one-state solution. Again, you make no sense whatsoever. Kiyosaki 11:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

At the title suggests, this article is about the "Allegations of Israeli apartheid", not about "Proposals for a one-state solution".- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 11:12, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

There are people that believe apartheid conditions warrant a one-state solution similar to South Africa's solution. Kindly do the research. Kiyosaki 11:15, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I understand that, but once again this article is about the "Allegations of Israeli apartheid, not about proposals for one state solution. Your additions are simply not relevant to this particular article, I'm sorry.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 11:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but if you believe what you say, then you should delete the section about proposals for a two-state solution. Pleae read through the links. Explain your inconsistency. I'll wait.Kiyosaki 11:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I dont understand the point being made. Surely if the article centers on an analogy with a problem from elsewhere, the analogous solution elsewhere is not peripheral? Calling it a personal essay is unwarrantedly harsh. Hornplease 13:56, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

The article is about the allegation, not a crystal ball for discussing possible future states of Israel. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:17, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_crystal_ball. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:33, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Yet another Alpahbet soup from the "disruptive" and "contoversial" Jayjg. How about WP:NOR, or WP:OWN. Jayjg, do you have any qualifications whatsoever, please prove them. Kindly show us what they are, or please refrain from reverting in violation of Help:Reverting and WP:RS. Please stop disrupting Wikipedia. Thanks.Kiyosaki 09:39, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you realize this but the qualifications of individual wikipedia editors are irrelevant and I am not exactly sure what you hope to accomplish by attempting to bring them up.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 09:52, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Moshe, I think you are missing everything. Please consider that there are editors that revert and remove WP:RS solely because they don't like it. That's POV editing, and that's not right. A Wikipedia editor that has no qualifications should never do that. Are you saying that, for instance, you and Jayjg are experts on this subject? Please show why you think you are, and we'll consider it. However, unless you do, you cannot delete WP:RS info , and kindly review Help:Reverting. Thanks. What is disappointing in your behavior is that the topic of this header/section is not being addressed. Can you please take your complaints elsewhere, and we refocus on the subject (one-state solution)? We would appreciate that. Thanks.Kiyosaki 10:56, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Palestinian ghettos

I may have overlooked it, but a key feature of the apartheid analogy appears to be missing from the article, namely the appropriation of land and the marginalisation of the (allegedly) oppressed group on the basis of land ownership and access, including the "homelands" solution in South Africa and the ghettoisation of palestinians.

• In both of the cases, the ascendant group (whites/jews) did come into possession of choice landed property in one way or another, whereas the disaffected group (coloureds/arabs) became segregated into townships and homelands.
• On the basis of the homeland constructs in South Africa, and the occupied territories in palestine, the inhabitants were denied effective political and civil rights as well as the opportunity for a prosperous future. Asgrrr 11:22, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

My editing experience on this page is that an allied group of editors does not want the article vetted correctly if it reflects accurately on apartheid conditions that exist. Edit the aticle, and I'll take a look. Thanks.Kiyosaki 11:35, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Done! :) Asgrrr 15:29, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Have you reviewed WP:NOR? You need to find reliable sources that discuss this topic in the context of "Israeli apartheid". You can't just make up your own arguments regarding this. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:17, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Jayjg, please do not "drive-by" without doing the research. Please read through the sources before making those kinds of comments in the future. Thanks much. There are a multitude of sources and footnotes for you to review. Kindly review before commenting in a disruptive manner. Kiyosaki 09:42, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Jayjg, I did NOT make up the arguments I wrote down, they have been expressed by others before me. You may not think that the actual sources I cited are up to scratch. Fine, so be it. But does that justify erasing without warning everything I wrote? Is that how this works? Can I go over the article with a magnifying glass and delete everything I don't think is properly sourced?

Asgrrr, you didn't provide any sources for much of the material you inserted, only one of the two sources you did provide actually discussed "Israeli apartheid", and that source was an opinion piece by a non-notable individual. You need to find reliable sources that make these arguments in the context of "Israeli apartheid". And believe me, this article has been gone over with a magnifying glass. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:52, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The seven towers of wisdom

To understand more about this matter I recommend the book the seven pillars of wisdom from Lawrence of Arabia If you read the Sykes-Picot Agreement and theBalfour Declaration you are probably able to understand how they got their "holey" mercenary Israel.--Ekkenekepen 13:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

What this article seems to ignore

The suggestion that (without peace) Israel is an apartheid state analogous to South Africa is simply wrong. The basic evil of South African apartheid, against which I and so many other Jews fought, was the absolute control over a majority of blacks by a small minority of whites. It was the opposite of democracy. In Israel majority rules; it is a vibrant secular democracy, which just today recognized gay marriages performed abroad. Arabs serve in the Knesset, on the Supreme Court and get to vote for their representatives, many of whom strongly oppose Israeli policies. Israel has repeatedly offered to end its occupation of areas it captured in a defensive war in exchange for peace and full recognition. The reality is that other Arab and Muslim nations do in fact practice apartheid. In Jordan, no Jew can be a citizen or own land. The same is true in Saudi Arabia, which has separate roads for Muslims and non-Muslims. Even in the Palestinian authority, the increasing influence of Hamas threatens to create Islamic hegemony over non-Muslims. Arab Christians are leaving in droves.

Muslim practices, especially those of Saudi Arabia are material for another article. Dhimmtude is not currently expressed in the literature as apartheid, but there is no rational distinction. Fred Bauder 15:48, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Fred: don't bother responding to this. Zeq cut-and-pasted it directly from an Alan Dershowitz letter. CJCurrie 01:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

CJCurrie is correct; this quotation does not really belong on the talk page, especially unattributed. Instead, the most pertinent portions of it belong in the article itself. Following the link that CJCurrie provided below, I see that this is an excerpt from an article by Dershowitz, an indisputably notable person with unquestioned expertise in human rights and liberty. I'd also point out that (while this is not evident from the portion quoted above) the Dershowitz article is a critique of Jimmy Carter's use of the "apartheid" analogy in his new book, and probably should be mentioned alongside any mention of Carter's book in the article. I'll let someone else give that a go, as my inclination when selecting portions of the Dershowitz article would be to include far more of it than would probably be acceptable, on a few different levels. 6SJ7 02:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• Alan Dershowitz has expressed remarkably similar views. [5] CJCurrie 05:25, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

My experience on this page is that WP:RS is ignored and abused by pro-hebrew, pro-Israeli POV editors that want to violate WP:OWN, to deny that people refer to apartheid conditions in Palestine, or the "Occupied Territories". It's utterly dishonest and disgraceful, and that's my opinion. That is what I have observed, and I believe the the Talk page reflects it. Thanks.Kiyosaki 11:15, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid the meme is rapidly spreading with two major books by prominent human rights spokesmen on the horizon. It is a public relations disaster, and on top of that essentially wrong: people need space where they can be themselves. Fred Bauder 15:48, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Possibly. But given that the meme is rapidly spreading, I repeat the question I laid out earlier: when do the similarities between this and, say, Islamofascism (also a pejorative term with strongly disputable basis in fact) start to outweigh the differences, namely the shrinking degree to which the term is known outside WP? And, at that point, how can we justify the divergent approaches to the two articles? Hornplease 21:58, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

According to NPOV policy we must show the other POV.

There for each of the sections such as "Occupation of the West Bank" "Israeli West Bank barrier " "Land policy inside the Green Line " etc... - must include under the same section a paragraph about why it is "aprtheid" (according to some) and why it is not (according to others).

In a similar way the opening paragrpah as well as the 1st and 2nd paragrph need to be changed - both POVs must be refelcted in the same paragraph. Zeq 03:49, 24 November 2006 (UTC) is back.

Mediation

I invite all to come to [6] to discuss mediation. WikieZach| talk 03:45, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

The above MedCab case was opened by the banned sockpuppet Kiyosaki, so has been automatically closed. Hornplease 21:23, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Kiyosaki

For those unaware, check user confirms that Kiyosaki is the so-called Disruptive Apartheid Editor, a user banned for edits such as blanking a user page and calling the editor "a filthy jew, unclean." Some of his accounts are listed at Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Azure1; others at User:Jayjg/DAE. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:46, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Split and suggested page move

The article currently has five sections: "Use of the term," "Criticism of the term," "Arguments for the term," "Arguments against the term," and "The debate on the two-state solution."

• I suggest the following:
  • The sections on "Criticism of the term" and "Arguments against the term" are the same thing and should be merged into one section with a link to a main page on Criticism of the term Israeli apartheid."
  • Some of the section on "Use of the term" should be moved to the section on "Arguments for the term" with a link to a main page on Support for the term Israeli apartheid."
  • The section on "The debate on the two-state solution" does not merit its own section and the content should be split between the Criticism and Support sections.
  • This article should be moved to the title "Israeli apartheid." The term in question is Israeli apartheid, not "allegations of." Calling them allegations does not follow the NPOV policy, it violates it. KazakhPol 22:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Since everything in the article is about Allegations of Israeli apartheid, it makes little sense to split it into sub-articles. Criticism of the term and arguments against it are different things, and in any event criticism sections are usually included in the main article, unless the article and criticism are both extremely long. The current name is vastly more NPOV, and was an agreed to compromise. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

KP, your suggestion is interesting, but I think that the present situation is one that was agreed to after a long and very bitter fight, one which led to some people leaving WP. I'd just as soon not tear open the scab, if we can avoid it. IronDuke 00:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The current title is not at all NPOV, it is a fabrication similar to that of "Islamic extremist terrorism" and "Zionist political violence." These pages do not have their current titles because of consensus, but by getting factions (the Islam Guild, the Jewish Guild, etc) to overrule policy and common sense. KazakhPol 02:39, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I could write a few pages about why the title should stay as it is and the article not be split up in the manner you suggest... but I have already written most of it before and don't see any good reason to get involved in all this for the who-knows-how-many-th time. So I will just say this: The title was agreed to as a compromise, and received a consensus and as far as I know it can only be undone by another consensus. That's not going to happen, partly because there are a number of people who believe that any title with "Israeli" and "apartheid" is POV, including the current title, but we are living with it because that is the best it was going to get. Beyond that, I agree with what Jay said above. 6SJ7 03:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. This is the agreed title and splitting the page into separate articles is pointless. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:45, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Same here. This has all been gone over before. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 05:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

According to NPOV policy we must show the other POV.

There for each of the sections such as "Occupation of the West Bank" "Israeli West Bank barrier " "Land policy inside the Green Line " etc... - must include (under the same section) both POV: one - a paragraph about why it is "aprtheid" (according to some) and two - why it is not so (according to others).

In a similar way the opening paragrpah as well as the 1st and 2nd paragrph need to be changed - both POVs must be refelcted in the same paragraph. Zeq 04:40, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The Jewish Guild? Interesting! Where's that? ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 10:41, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Whatever. The Jewish WikiProject. It acts like the Islam guild anyways. KazakhPol 00:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Which Jewish WikiProject are you referring to, and which posters here are members? Jayjg ^(talk) 18:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

So let me say if I get this right: KazakhPol wants us to create one article for the libel allegation, one against it, and one that draws the conclusion that those who support the libel allegation are correct, because, after all, there is a Jewish conspiracy involved here. If that worked, it would set an interesting precedent for NPOV at Wikipedia. --Leifern 13:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

That is not a correct reading of the suggestion. Hornplease 18:46, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

As I said above, of the many pages written in support of the current page title, the only relevant point that was made given the many other similar articles (Islamofascism in particular) is that the term was not in widespread enough usage at the time. It is now increasingly used; to keep content here seems a violation. All the various statements above saying this is the agreed title are frankly pointless. Hornplease 18:46, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

First of all, there's no particular phrase - it's more like there's a meme that Israel practices apartheid. It has no basis in fact and logic and really only supports an anti-Israeli political agenda, much like the offensive meme that Israel and Nazi Germany are morally equivalent, or that Israel practices terrorism, etc. One can find similar memes that the Holocaust never happened, or that the CIA was behind the 9/11 attacks, etc. Just because the meme gets currency, popularity, etc., doesn't mean it's valid. --Leifern 16:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The claim that the comparison between apartheid South Africa and Israeli policies in the Palestinian territories "has no basis in fact and logic" is obviously POV, so if we've chosen the article title to reflect that view then the article title is POV. There are a great many equally controversial comparisons covered on Wikipedia: Islamofascism, Feminazi, Wage slavery, Ecoterrorism, Judicial activism – these are just a few. None of the titles of these articles has the disclaimer phrase "allegations of" in its title. Can someone explain the anomaly?--G-Dett 18:25, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Interesting comparison. Take a look at the Islamofascism article; do you notice something? It doesn't actually discuss the validity of the analogy, merely the use of the term, and the controversy around it. The same with the Feminazi article. Now contrast that with this article, which not only discusses the "Israeli apartheid" meme itself, but then devotes half its space to debating its validity. Here's an experiment for you G-Dett, if you're brave enough: Try going to the Islamofascism article and inserting a lengthy, well-sourced discussion of the validity of the conflation of Islam with fascism in it; I predict you will be reverted within 5 minutes. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

This is very interesting and puzzling if true, Jay. If I find the energy – what's bravery got to do with this? – I'll give it a shot. In the meantime, to help me follow your train of thought, can you say who will revert me and why? And what does this have to do with article titles? What if I go over there and change the title to "The Allegation of Islamofascism" – will someone revert me?--G-Dett 19:12, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The editors there will revert you, immediately, because that's what they do every time someone attempts to insert such a discussion. You see, it's a given there that "Islamofascism" is merely a pejorative epithet, so all one can really do is discuss the history, usage, and controversy over the term, but (in distinction to this article) never the underlying arguments supporting it. Regarding that article's title, similar things have been tried and/or supported, including by me, with little success. See, for example, [7] [8] That article couldn't be called "Allegations of Islamofascism", since, as mentioned, the editors there won't actually allow any allegations that Islam is fascistic to exist in the article, merely a discussion of the use of the term itself. As for this article's title, it's the compromise title reached after a lengthy series of discussions, move wars, ArbCom cases, etc. It fits in with the series that it is broken out from, Allegations of apartheid, Allegations of tourist apartheid in Cuba, etc. The "apartheid" allegation is trotted out in reference to just about every country (and everything else as well); the only reason this particular article is so long compared to most, is that the world penchant for singling Israel for unique and disproportionate obloquoy is mirrored by Wikipedia editors. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:37, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll take a look at it, Jay. Is this also true of the other topics I mentioned – wage slavery, ecoterrorism, etc.?--G-Dett 22:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The Disruptive Apartheid Editor, whatever his many faults, is quite right that prominent South Africans have likened the situation in the Palestinian territories (not Israel proper, though this article tends to blur the distinction) to apartheid, and that it's disingenuous to suggest that they've made this comparison with "just about every other country" in the world. They haven't; they've done it pretty much uniquely with Palestine (by which I mean the territories). I also disagree with Jay's assertion that the comparison is rooted in the bigotry of the world and of Wikipedia. As conspiracy theories go, that one's pretty grand. And to say that it's "singling out" Israel to compare it to South Africa is begging the question – because, after all, apartheid South Africa was itself "singled out" for opprobrium. Apartheid aroused the disgust of the West not because it was the world's most serious human rights abuse, which it clearly was not. It aroused the West's disgust because South Africa, like Israel, was a Western democracy of sorts with its cultural, economic, historical, and institutional roots in the West, so Westerners felt morally implicated in its actions. You could argue that there is a double standard at work, but it's much more subtle and morally ambiguous bias than anti-Semitism. It's the sort of double standard that explains how the West found ethnic cleansing in the Balkans morally intolerable, but genocide in Rwanda merely tragic and unfortunate.--G-Dett 15:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, the Islamofascism article, while limited in scope, is exactly what we should see here, but under the page Israeli Apartheid. A simple discussion of origins, examples, and people who've chosen to criticise it. We dont need to summarise their arguments if the arguments are, as of now, non-notable. Would this be acceptable to you, Jay?

Also, Jay, please try to avoid saying things like people who happen to disagree with you on Israel-related pages are singling out Israel for 'disproportionate obloquy'. That creates a very negative environment for suggestions, as well as hinting at an assignation of (unpleasant) motives. A glance at my contributions, for example, should make it clear that I devote practically none of my time here to Israel-related issues. I just think that this article is under the wrong title, and it conveys the impression of bias to a disinterested, dispassionate observer. I'd be glad if Jay avoided that sort of thing unless he's sure of an editor's motives, and even then other approaches might be more useful, as I'm sure he knows. Hornplease 16:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The issue here is not people who "disagree with me", but rather the constant singling out of Israel disproportionate obloquy, though I certainly wasn't accusing you of doing so. An errant shell which tragically kills 20 Palestinians warrants world attention, and an entire Wikipedia article with hundreds of edits (and likely even more were it not constantly protected from editing), yet the situation in southern Sudan (3 million deaths and counting) goes relatively unnoticed. Did you know that from 1992-2002 almost 200,000 people were massacred in Algeria, mostly civilians? I believe that warrants an entire 3 sentences on Wikipedia. Meanwhile, the 2nd intifadeh, with about 5000 deaths on both sides in the same time-frame warrants page after page after page. Around 1.4 million refugees (on both sides) were created as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, and there's no end to the articles about that (or at least to articles about the refugees on one side), and its aftermath. 12 million refugees were created as a result of the Partition of India; I believe they warrant two paragraphs. I think there are currently about 4 million Sudanese refugees, and I don't think they even have a specific article devoted to them. As for your idea, I'm not sure you understand the full import of what you're suggesting; you'd have to really restrict this article solely to people who use the term. You wouldn't even be able to drag in people who refer to "bantustans". Are the other editors on the page really amenable to that? Jayjg ^(talk) 20:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Jay, you say that this article includes the formulation Allegations of because it discusses not only the "history, usage, and controversy over the term" but also the "underlying arguments supporting it." But this is also true of the New Anti-Semitism article, right? Why isn't that one called Allegations of New Anti-Semitism?

Maybe we should create a separate article on The World Penchant for Singling Out Israel for Unique and Disproportionate Obloquoy, and link to it from this article. Then, if the article becomes rich enough in substantive detail, it could be renamed Allegations of a World Penchant for Singling Out Israel for Unique and Disproportionate Obloquoy. --G-Dett 22:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

An important article

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/795055.html

"The figures show that Arab towns are reluctant to collect city taxes from their residents."

"determination on the part of city officials. Officials at the Israeli ministries charge the clannish nature of Arab society means the town leaders aren't taking steps that would be unpopular in their social circles, for instance, demanding their relatives pay tax. "

Zeq 04:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Jimmy Carter in his own words

<message from banned user deleted>

Editors should read Jimmy Carter in his own words, but they should also know that this is the Disruptive Apartheid Editor again. CJCurrie 09:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopedic

this article should be deleted. By definition it is a POV, and most importantly it is not encyclopedic material. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ILikeHowMuch (talk • contribs) 03:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

The social phenomenon of Israeli Apartheid

Isarig, take a look at the article on Apartheid in South Africa, and I think you will see that its scope is much broader than just government policy. It has a larger social context, as did the racist system in the old South. Notice that the Apartheid article includes info that is in that broader context, not just law, but a larger pattern of what you have labelled "personal racism". ForkInTheGravy 06:24, 6 December 2006 (UTC) I should add that, as a parallel analogy to the phenomenon of South African Apartheid, this article should not be unnecessarily constrained in its comparisons to only a single aspect of that system. The program of destabilisation and the role of paramilitary and vigilante groups acting with either direct or tacit support of the government were just as much a part of the system. Imagine discussing the system of racial segregation in the Southern U.S. in which mention of the role of the KKK were deemed "irrelevant" as not pertaining to *official* government policy. To artificially limit the discussion to merely the component of the *legal* framework is misleading at best. ForkInTheGravy 06:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC) Incidentally, on the topic of the the Geocartographia poll, I am reminded of J.S. Mill's perceptive observation to the effect that the tyranny of prevailing opinion can be even more formidable than that of the magistrate. Doesn't it seem almost tautologically obvious that any system of racial prejudice, with or without the imprimatur of law, relies for its continued existence more essentially on the prejudice itself than on any de jure codification? ForkInTheGravy 08:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Apartheid is a term for a legal framework, enforced by the state. This article is about allegations of Israeli Apartheid. Personal racism is by definition not a part of this. If you want to start a new article about racism in Israel, or Racism of Israelis - go right ahead , but this is outside the scope of this article. Isarig 15:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Nicely and concisely put. Gzuckier 15:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Well put. The material Fork is trying to add is one of the most obvious examples of original research I've seen in this article in a long while. The article must talk about stuff that reliable sources have labeled "Israeli apartheid", not what any Wikipedia editor imagines might (or should) be discussed in this article. Jayjg ^(talk) 16:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

No one who has ever lived under a system of racial discrimination and domination could imagine that "personal" opinions, held by the majority of the dominant population, and in line with similar government policies don't enter into it. Neither does the internationally defined crime of apartheid, unsurprisingly enough.

The States Parties to the present Convention declare criminal those organizations, institutions and individuals committing the crime of apartheid. ... International criminal responsibility shall apply, irrespective of the motive involved, to individuals, members of organizations and institutions and representatives of the State, whether residing in the territory of the State in which the acts are perpetrated or in some other State, whenever they: (a) Commit, participate in, directly incite or conspire in the commission of the acts mentioned in article II of the present Convention; (emphasis added)

You are misreading what this says. Individuals can certainly be guilty of the crime of Apartheid, if they "Commit, participate in, directly incite or conspire in the commission of the acts mentioned in article II" - which are all part of an official policy & mechanisms implementing Apartheid. They are not guilty of the crime of Apartheid just for being racists. Thus while Jan Smuts may certainly be guilty of the crime of Apartheid, for initiating the legal framework of Apartheid in SA, he is not guilty of the crime of Apartheid for merely saying or thinking "I don't want no stinking coloureds living next to my house". Similarily, if an Israeli mayor decreed that his city is off-limits to Arabs, he might be guilty of Apartheid, but if he doesn't want an Arab neighbor, he may be a racist, but it is not Apartheid. Isarig 20:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Per Jayjg's separate concern, residential segregation is a principal argument of proponents of the Apartheid analogy. Any reliable source regardless of its use of the term "Israeli apartheid", including the Israeli government, that demonstrated residential segregation as a social fact would be appropiate here.--Carwil 18:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

In a hypothetical case of actual (as opposed to imagined) apartheid, there surely would be social consequences of apartheid, and probably even social drivers of it. But the convention discusses apartheid as a structural arrangement that through legal means segregates citizens of the same country from each other on the basis of race or ethnicity, giving one group privileges at the expense of another. The reason why international humanitarian law strives to be so precise (examine the endless discussion on the precise criteria for something to be genocide, for example), is to prevent the possibility that allegations of a crime be co-opted for political purposes. In truth, the PA practices something that is much closer to apartheid than the Israeli government does, because no Jew (with the exception of Amira Hass) is allowed to live in areas they control. --Leifern 18:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The bottom line here is that you need to find reliable sources that discuss these issues in the specific context of "Israeli apartheid", not something you consider to be related. Original research is not permitted on Wikipedia no matter how strongly you feel you need to promote a particular POV or political cause. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

To qualify as relevant to this article, sourced material must have the word "apartheid" in it? What if, say, it has the word "bantustan"?--G-Dett 21:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Personally I wouldn't allow it, though it's not as unmistakably obvious a case of original research as the "residential segregation" stuff, and if you accept Hornplease's idea it certainly wouldn't be allowed. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:39, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Likening West Bank cantons to South African bantustans doesn't constitute an allegation of Israeli apartheid?

What if an RS likened Israeli policies in the West Bank to "the political system that existed in South Africa until 1994"? Would you not allow its inclusion, personally? --G-Dett 01:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

G-Dett, any source should preferably use the term "Israeli apartheid" or "apartheid," but in order not to be absurdly strict about this, it's okay if the source doesn't use the actual term, but is very clearly and unambiguously making the analogy or arguing against it e.g. by comparing the situation to that of South Africa, or words to that effect. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The point is that a third-party source must have made the comparison, not a Wikipedia editor who thinks something ought to be described as apartheid. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:24, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Isn't a writer who talks about West Bank bantustans making the comparison, and isn't it absurdly strict for Wikipedia editors to pretend otherwise?--G-Dett 01:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

It's possible he's talking about that, but I'd need to read it to be able to judge. The danger is that we confuse people who are talking about what they see as racism with what some people claim is an actual apartheid system. This is one of the problems with this article, namely that we mix up people who are using the term loosely as an insult and those who are using it seriously. So if we also start to use people who haven't used the term at all (when they could have done so if they had wanted to), it gets even murkier. Therefore, any source we use who doesn't actually use the term would have to be unambiguously talking about an alleged apartheid system rather than simple racism, in my view. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

It's possible who is talking about that? I was asking a general question about texts that use the word "bantustan." Bantustans were a unique and defining feature of apartheid South Africa. Anyone who invokes bantustans is invoking apartheid, period. Just as surely as anyone who invokes cattle cars and gas chambers is invoking the Holocaust.--G-Dett 07:58, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Slim is right that a serious problem with the article as it stands is that "we mix up people who are using the term loosely as an insult and those who are using it seriously." Accordingly, we need to clean up sentences like the following: "The term has been used by diverse groups and individuals across the political spectrum, including Desmond Tutu and other South African anti-apartheid leaders, Jimmy Carter, members of the Knesset, [5] Palestinian-rights activists,[6] the Syrian government,[7] student groups in the UK, U.S., and Canada, [8] the Congress of South African Trade Unions, [9], the Canadian Union of Public Employees, white supremacist David Duke,[10] Holocaust denier Paul Grubach of the Institute for Historical Review,[11] and anti-Semitic groups such as Jew Watch."--G-Dett 14:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

It's hilarious that our first note on the use of the term is "The majority is incensed by the very analogy and deplores what it deems its propagandistic goals." Way to poison the well!Grace Note 03:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

One notes also that an enormous amount of space is given to Adam/Moodley and none to the contents of any of the books that make the allegations the article is about. I don't suggest that the authors of the "Israel is an apartheid state" have anything like the credentials of Adam but still, the case for is simply not presented here. And before you say it, no, I'm not going to read the books and add it myself. I find anti-Israeli polemics turgid at best and I hate working on articles in Wikipedia when I know the work will be destroyed as soon as my back is turned. Grace Note 03:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Haaretz writer now says it's apartheid.

Shmuel Rosner, the chief U.S. correspondent of Haaretz, wrote, in October 2006, "Notes on Carter's 'apartheid' analogy":

“ Arguing about Apartheid is pointless. There is enough material evidence to prove that apartheid exists in the occupied territories in one form or another. If you argue about the use of this word, you lose. If you argue that Israel is blameless you also lose. The only argument you can make against Carter is about context and the bigger picture. But those who support the apartheid accusation aren't interested in nuance - they chose the word not because of its meaning but rather because of its history. It is a way to de-legitimize Israel's behavior in the West Bank and Gaza, and to turn it into South Africa of the 21st century. This is a false argument. ”

That's a clear statement, from the mainstream Jewish press in Israel. Any questions? --John Nagle 05:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I have a question: So what? This is not a news article, it is the opinion of one person. I have no idea how "mainstream" it is within Israel, I suspect it is not very. While Haaretz news articles are a reliable source of information, an opinion article by a columnist is reflective only of his opinion. (That's one of the problems with this article, it is about nothing but opinions.) I also think that the part of the paragraph that you did not put in bold type changes the emphasis somewhat. It also makes one wonder if this writer has any idea what he is talking about, because at the beginning of the paragraph he seems to be saying that you can't argue factually against the use of the word, but at end he is saying that the use of the analogy rests on a false argument. Seems like doubletalk to me. 6SJ7 16:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

It's actually on his blog, for heaven's sake. --Leifern 17:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

6SJ7 is right that this particular comment isn't very coherent. It's significant if he's a prominent journalist, and if he's not, not.--G-Dett 17:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Shmuel Rosner used to be head of news for Haaretz, then head of features, and now chief US correspondent, which would make him a prominent journalist. The article is about Jewish strategy for the 2006 US elections, and he's concerned that Carter's statements might hurt Republicans, which he seems to see as bad for Israel. He writes about a pro-Israel "Republican Jewish Coalition" organization and their ads aimed at US voters. The point he seems to be making is that trying to deny Israeli apartheid is a losing political strategy for Israel. --John Nagle 17:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

He's suggesting Carter's statements might hurt Democrats. The syntax is sloppy and misleading, but when he talks about "Jewish voters and their party" the reference is to the Democratic party.

If he's prominent, then yes his opinion merits mention in this article, as long as it's fairly represented. 6SJ7 is right that he heavily qualifies his initial statements about the apartheid comparison.--G-Dett 18:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

You have basically just provided a list of his former positions, none of which make him inherantly notable, if you can find another source that refers to how prominent he is in Israel that is one thing, but your current evidence of his prominence seems to essentially be original research. Anyways, his argument seems to mostly consist of rhetorical devices, I'm not even sure if he is really stating that he believes in the Apartheid allegation, it seems more likely that he is commenting on much of the rest of the world believes the allegation. Also, editorials are meant to be provocative, the general concept is that a writer says something to either shock or at least provoke some sort of strong emotion among the readers in order to get them talking with friends and acquaintances, the ultimate goal of which is more or less just to sell more newspapers.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 19:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

"Allegations of Israeli Apartheid" vs "Israeli Apartheid"

Why does this page exist at "Allegations of Israeli Apartheid"? Something doesn't have to necessarily exist in order for there to be a page at "Israeli Apartheid." BhaiSaab ^talk 19:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)