Talk:White pride
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A1: Wikipedia reflects how reliable sources treat topics and sometimes two semantically similar topics are treated very differently by sources. For example, compare misogyny to misandry. Most reliable sources treat the topic white pride as being most notable as a slogan used by white supremacists whereas sources indicate the other terms are used mostly to describe coherent social movements. Q2: Why don't we make the article about "white pride" as a concept or a movement like black pride, gay pride, or Asian pride?
A2: The subjects of Wikipedia articles must be notable, which is determined by coverage from reliable, independent sources. The reliable sources found for this topic indicate that white pride is a substantively different concept from the others mentioned. The majority of sources discuss the slogan "white pride" and its use by various groups as being the most prominent use of the idea. If a coherent "white pride" movement separate from white supremacy, white separatism, or white nationalism actually exists, it is not documented in reliable sources. Q3: This page seems racist/biased/overly negative. Why isn't this page neutral? What about Wikipedia's policy of NPOV?
A3: NPOV (neutral point of view) refers to how articles discuss a topic as presented by reliable sources. If the sources present a topic in a positive light, Wikipedia must be neutral and indicate that this is what the sources do. This is likewise true for negative coverage. Sources can be biased so long as they are reliable. Wikipedia explains sources, even if those sources take a "side". Q4: This article uses biased sources. Shouldn't we balance it out?
A4: Reliable sources sometimes take sides. What makes a source reliable is not whether anyone thinks they are biased but rather whether they adhere to the standards that Wikipedia uses to determine reliability. For some topics, most reliable sources cover the topic in a certain way and Wikipedia must give due weight to that coverage. Q5: I found a blog/tweet/article that talks about white pride. Can we add it to the article?
A5: Editors are encouraged to research the topic and find sources to help expand the article. If you find something you think deserves inclusion first consider whether the source is reliable. Secondary sources are often preferred to primary ones. Fringe sources are usually not included unless they are used to cite information about the source itself. Some people's opinions are considered noteworthy, especially experts on a topic whose opinions who have been noticed by third-party independent sources. When we include prominent opinions, we attribute that opinion to its author. Sometimes an otherwise non-noteworthy opinion or statement is covered by reliable sources, and that coverage can be included. However, not all opinions are noteworthy, even if the person is well-known. If you come up with new reliably sourced content or new sources that you think are reliable that can support text that already exists in the article, you can boldly add that to the article yourself or bring it to the article's talk page to discuss it with other users. Remember, Wikipedia works by forming consensus and sometimes bold edits are reverted so they can be discussed (read here about the bold-revert-discuss cycle). |
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| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the White pride article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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| Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
| Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5Auto-archiving period: 60 days |
This is NOT A FORUM
Please note at the very top of the page where it says:
- This page is not a forum for general discussion about White pride. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article.
Because of past incidents, this page is on a short leash. Any discussion which is not directly about improving the article is likely to be deleted, collapsed, or archived. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:09, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
- If we're not allowed to talk about the article, then what are we allowed to do? --RandomUser3510 (talk) 01:39, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
- Is this a serious question, or are you trolling? You are allowed to talk about how to improve the article. It ain't that complicated. Grayfell (talk) 02:12, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
Misleading
This page is part of the movement to DECREASE discrimination! It is evident that this article is written with a clear bias that does not reflect the spectrum of meanings of "White Pride." In this case, the article portrays having White Pride as a racist activity and unfairly construes white people as racist. While, of course, racism should be included in this article, it should also discuss the celebration of being a white person. I am a white male and I do have pride in my heritage and genetic history. While "Black Pride," "Gay Pride," and "Asian Pride" all discuss the celebration of the race/idea, "White Pride" is the only article that condemns those who practice it. I ask that an Administrator or more experienced user take action to correct this article rather than have it contain a racist, discriminatory, and misleading set of information that poorly reflects on the Wikipedia community. While the FAQ simply uses "reliable sources" as the excuse, it isn't fair to assume that the majority is correct. Instead of solely focusing on a small score of reliable sources, include ALL opinions that can be found from reliable sources which would show the celebration of white heritage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jefrafra (talk • contribs) 20:49, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Please check out WP:TRUTH. EvergreenFir (talk) 21:05, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- This article was clearly written ignoring many reliable sources. It is not factual, misleading, and unfair to only use sources that support one point without even mentioning the other. Racism and white supremacy should absolutely be covered in this article, alongside European heritage and persons who are legitimately proud to be Caucasian. Jefrafra (talk) 19:24, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Jefrafra: "Black pride" and "Gay pride" were reactions to historical oppression. White people aren't being oppressed, so that excuse goes out the window. "White Pride" was developed by white supremacists to whitewash their anti-human beliefs in an attempt to make them more palatable for the gullible
- Either stop trying to promote a white pride agenda (and find something else to do) or leave. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:48, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- @ian.thomson White people have also suffered slavery and oppression. In fact, in many African and Islamic countries, white people are still enslaved. I am not promoting or encourage white supremacy or racism- I am simply a proud white male and believe this article should reflect the several meanings of white pride (which would include a variety of reliable sources rather than the single-sided ones used). Jefrafra (talk) 22:43, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
- Alright, I need to say something. I find it completely unfair how a lot of comments that address legitimate problems with the article are deleted under "wikipedia is not a forum" even though they are talking about the article, not the subject. It really is time to fix the article, the fact that people complain about it almost every week should be a sign this article needs fixing. There is absolutely nothing racist about being proud of how you were born. It's only racist if you think white people are superior. This article is unfairly biased. Of course there is nothing I personally can do to fix that, since I lack knowledge on the subject. But think of it like this, do you really want people to think of this as one of the worst articles on the site? That's not something you want people to think. The articles are meant to be at a good quality, right? Blaze The Movie Fan (talk) 15:47, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
- Please see the FAQ at the top of the page. - SummerPhDv2.0 23:04, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
- I did address the FAQ in my previous suggestions. Using sources is excellent, but we can't pick and choose reliable sources to promote a certain ideal. As previously stated, racism is a topic at hand, as is the basic pride I have in being a white person. I shouldn't be considered a white supremacist, as the Administrator (Ian) put it, because I believe this article should consider the reliable sources that discuss the history of white oppression and why I'm proud to be a white person.[REDACTED](redacted after I realized it was not relevant to the article nor the proper place to address this issue) Jefrafra (talk) 04:13, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
- You have not included any reliable sources at all. Those sources would have to be reliable, and specifically discuss "white pride". Sources which only discuss white oppression are not useful here, because that would be WP:SYNTH. Grayfell (talk) 04:24, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
- There is no point trying to take the obvious racist bias out of this article. It is clearly written by white-hating racists who will just keep removing any changes that are made. Classical modern racism. Just be proud that you are white and keep encouraging the people that you meet to be proud of theirs as well, no matter what race they are from. Wikipedia moderators and writers are frequently trolls. Don't feed the trolls. When they write racist rubbish just ignore them.
- You have not included any reliable sources at all. Those sources would have to be reliable, and specifically discuss "white pride". Sources which only discuss white oppression are not useful here, because that would be WP:SYNTH. Grayfell (talk) 04:24, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
- I did address the FAQ in my previous suggestions. Using sources is excellent, but we can't pick and choose reliable sources to promote a certain ideal. As previously stated, racism is a topic at hand, as is the basic pride I have in being a white person. I shouldn't be considered a white supremacist, as the Administrator (Ian) put it, because I believe this article should consider the reliable sources that discuss the history of white oppression and why I'm proud to be a white person.[REDACTED](redacted after I realized it was not relevant to the article nor the proper place to address this issue) Jefrafra (talk) 04:13, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
- Please see the FAQ at the top of the page. - SummerPhDv2.0 23:04, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
- Alright, I need to say something. I find it completely unfair how a lot of comments that address legitimate problems with the article are deleted under "wikipedia is not a forum" even though they are talking about the article, not the subject. It really is time to fix the article, the fact that people complain about it almost every week should be a sign this article needs fixing. There is absolutely nothing racist about being proud of how you were born. It's only racist if you think white people are superior. This article is unfairly biased. Of course there is nothing I personally can do to fix that, since I lack knowledge on the subject. But think of it like this, do you really want people to think of this as one of the worst articles on the site? That's not something you want people to think. The articles are meant to be at a good quality, right? Blaze The Movie Fan (talk) 15:47, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
- @ian.thomson White people have also suffered slavery and oppression. In fact, in many African and Islamic countries, white people are still enslaved. I am not promoting or encourage white supremacy or racism- I am simply a proud white male and believe this article should reflect the several meanings of white pride (which would include a variety of reliable sources rather than the single-sided ones used). Jefrafra (talk) 22:43, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
- This article was clearly written ignoring many reliable sources. It is not factual, misleading, and unfair to only use sources that support one point without even mentioning the other. Racism and white supremacy should absolutely be covered in this article, alongside European heritage and persons who are legitimately proud to be Caucasian. Jefrafra (talk) 19:24, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 16 May 2019
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White pride, is a expression primarily used by white nationalist, that take pride in being white. White Power has been associated with neo-Nazi and white supremacist organizations in order to signal racist or racialist viewpoints.[2][3] It is also a slogan used by the prominent post-Ku Klux Klan group Storm front and a term used to make racist/racialist viewpoints more palatable to the general public who may associate historical abuses with the terms "white Power", "neo-Nazi", and "white supremacist". But not all white nationalist have this view point. Recon16g (talk) 12:35, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
Not done - This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".- MrX 🖋 16:39, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
Suggestion for this page's FAQ above
Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not. Please address this important wikipedia principle with more FAQ points to include why this article isn't a newspaper, soapbox, publisher of original thought, guidebook, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.187.176.47 (talk) 11:07, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
More content
Here is an article that presents a broader view of the phrase, and relates it to the Alt Right
- "calls among many alt-righters for white Americans to regain a sense of racial identity and “white pride” is effectively a rebellion against neoliberal market forces that erode tribal loyalties, national bound-aries, and cultural uniqueness by encouraging open borders, multiculturalism, and individualistic forms of agency associated with competition and consumerism"
- Esposito, Luigi (18 Jan 2019). "The Alt-Right as a Revolt against Neoliberalism and Political Correctness: the Role of Collective Action Frames". Perspectives on Global Development and Technology. 18 (1–2). doi:10.1163/15691497-12341507. Retrieved 21 Aug 2019.; PDF - RandomUser3510 (talk) 22:29, 21 August 2019 (UTC)