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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Underneaththesun (talk | contribs) at 09:20, 16 June 2020 (→‎Inconsistency: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Modern politics outdated

The article became obsolete when Yanukovich came to power. As of 2010 Ukraine no longer recognizes holodomor as genocide. (Igny (talk) 17:53, 9 August 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Italy

Italy, as many other nations listed as recognizing the Holodomor a genocide, never recognized the Holodomor as a genocide. 84.223.132.138 (talk) 18:48, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

According to the gov't of Ukraine it did http://www.mfa.gov.ua/thailand/en/8350.htm .--Galassi (talk) 20:35, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The government of Ukraine is wrong, this is the act of the italian parliament about the recognition of the holodomor: http://banchedati.camera.it/sindacatoispettivo/ShowXml2Html.Asp?IdAtto=90369&Stile=5&HighLight=1&SearchType=1&Originale=0
It clearly says "IN CORSO" (below the table, beside "Stato iter", that is "status of the approval") which means "in progress". So the act is not effective. The same goes for Chile, the only source of the chilean recognition is this: http://www.camara.cl/prensa/noticias_detalle.aspx?prmid=28589 . Again it says "Cámara pide reconocer hambruna en Ucrania en 1933", that is "the lower house of parliament asks for the recognition of the 1933 starvation in Ukraine", but there's no sign of an approval. Even for Poland there aren't sources corroborating an approval.21:18, 30 August 2011 (UTC)84.223.132.138 (talk)

OSCE

The 2008 OSCE event is cited from Russian news. I think that it must be sourced directly from OSCE documents (which I am sure are public). I doubt Russian press neutrality is retelling the event. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:39, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

References about countries which recognize it as genocide

This list is included twice in the article: in taxt and as a template.

  1. Duplication must be removed.
  2. References must be added.

The second point is especially important, since from this talk page it is seen that misinterpretations may happen. Staszek Lem (talk) 22:24, 18 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Per NPOV policy, I suggest instead to create a table which lists the states whose governments considered the issue, in the following columns:
<State | time frame | resolution/comment | reference> Staszek Lem (talk) 22:27, 18 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

File:Holodomor World recognition.png Nominated for Deletion

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Checked Confirmed as correct. Thanks, Cyberbot II. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:34, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Holodomor template icon

Created by User:Alex Tora. – Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the graphic was simply invented by a Wikipedia user who likes playing in Photoshop; a personal statement, with no historical significance whatsoever pasted in dozens upon dozens of articles as a kind of self-promo. Poeticbent talk 06:29, 18 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • The graphics seems to be quite good and serves the purpose. I am unaware of any requirements to navigational template icons other than be free and non-controversial. Any suggestions for a better image? Alex Bakharev (talk) 06:39, 18 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I thought first that it was an image of historical significance. I went to see where it came from (historically). I was expecting to be pointed to a source where I could learn more about Holodomor symbolism. Imagine my disappointment. Poeticbent talk 06:46, 18 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In which case, it should be removed as WP:OR. We're just engaging in creating our own iconography if it remains. As it is, I thought it pertained to some sort of logo/emblem. I wasn't keen on it because it is essentially religious iconography, so it did strike me as being potentially an emblem used in Canada. Why I thought that iconography from Canada is okay is another issue (i.e., I'm a twit). There's no value in even treating it as a WP:DECORATIVE issue when it's not emblematic of anything other than one person's imagination and photoshop. It just reminds me of Template:Slavery being treated as if it were a school project.
I !vote that it goes. It fits in neatly with discussions on various genocide related articles raising concerns about the trivialisation of the subject. Thanks for your investigative work, Poeticbent! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:37, 19 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

<sigh> Guys, due diligence, please.

. Staszek Lem (talk) 02:22, 19 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Staszek Lem, I was hoping for something like that. Still, the stamp, which by design is in the public domain in many countries, does not explain the origins of this religious symbol as Iryna Harpy has already observed. I have no objections against keeping it in anymore, but the question about its actual meaning remains open. 02:29, 19 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is not exactly a religious symbol. It does not symbolize religion. It symbolizes suffering, death, and burial. Staszek Lem (talk) 02:37, 19 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It is crucified Christ superimposed on the silhouette of Mary.
The gravestone cross is outlined in the background. I don't know what kind of cross it is in terms of shape, but your feedback is appreciated. Poeticbent talk 03:04, 19 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Having looked at the stamp image, it's specifically for the 60th anniversary (which is why it has 1993 at the bottom of the stamp). Being one of many commemorative images doesn't turn it into an issue for editor discretion. The issue of editorial discretion for images of this calibre was thoroughly discussed at the WP:NOETHNICGALLERIES RfC.
It certainly isn't any more emblematic of Holodomor than other stamps or associated imagery. I'm sorry, but I think it's still OR. I'm certainly not aware of literature, films or anything surrounding the Holodomor using this as a universally recognised emblem. There's a huge gap between the concept of 'an' emblem and 'the' emblem. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:26, 19 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Actually we have a chance to get a standard emblem: "PRESIDENT COMMISSIONS GOVERNMENT TO CREATE GRAPHIC EMBLEM OF 1932 TO 1933 HOLODOMOR". It was in 2008. Remains to check out whether it was done or died in bureaucracy. 21:45, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Current UA President's website [www.president.gov.ua/search?query=голодомор& does not have anything about голодомор]. Reportedly there was a Holodomor portal prior to 2010 (under Yushchenko) Staszek Lem (talk) 22:05, 19 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
search 'емблема Голодомору конкурс ' did not give anything. Staszek Lem (talk) 22:20, 19 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Here & here you see a monument to Holodomor with this emblem at the National Museum "Memorial to Holodomor victims". Therefore I a inclined to conclude that it is not a random emblem, but rather widely accepted. Staszek Lem (talk) 22:05, 19 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Here it is called "traditional emblem". Staszek Lem (talk) 22:20, 19 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This would be my personal preference (unfortunately fails WP:GNG). Staszek Lem (talk) 22:13, 19 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There's been no state recognised outcome of the emblem competition. There are various memorials used for the purposes of ceremony (i.e., lighting candles, food offerings, laying of flowers/wreaths). The forum you've pointed to is an opinion piece by a woman who frequents the forum, so the fact that she calls it the "Традиційна емблема жалобних заходів за жертвами Голодомору" ("The traditional emblem of mourning for the victims of the Holodomor") is merely her opinion. For all we know, the idea has been implanted in her mind due to its use on English language Wikipedia, and Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Until/unless we can find reliably sourced information on any emblem being recognised, we're flying by the seat of our pants and are creating our own urban myth, which is unencyclopaedic and is not something at our discretion to engage in. NOR means NOR. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:24, 19 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So what this boils down to is that we don't know who created the icon. The post stamp was published in 1993 without the name of a graphic artist (or a sculptor) which is often the case (not always), two years after Ukraine gained independence from the Soviet Union. Can anyone find out please (as closely as possible) when and where did this symbol appear for the first time? Poeticbent talk 00:40, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If I'm understanding your concerns correctly, Poeticbent, we've identified a potential double whammy in using this image. Not only is it OR, but it's highly likely to be COPYVIO if the image is still the property of the artist. The anonymous uploader of the image merely replicated a copyright protected artwork (whoever actually has copyright). Without attribution, while the stamp can remain at Wiki Commons (and can be used in the body of a relevant article), but the replicated image in use here should be deleted from Commons. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:55, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
According to the Article 10 of the Law of Ukraine on Copyright and Related rights postage stamps (section d), coins and banknotes (section e), are in the public domain within Ukraine; however, anything that falls under sections (d) and (e), unless officially approved, is under copyright. See: Wikisource:Ukraine. Law on Copyright and Related Rights (quote): "The drafts of the official symbols and signs specified in points (d) and (e) of part 1 of this Article shall, prior to their official approval, be regarded as works and shall be protected pursuant to this Law." (end of quote). You're free to apply your own interpretation of what "officially approved" means.
The postage stamp (per above) was published in 1993, therefore it could not have been the emblem of the Holodomor which President of Ukraine Viktor Yushchenko considered appropriate to create in connection with the organization and support of publishing and other projects worthy of the 75th anniversary of the Holodomor. As noted in the letter of Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko, the government was to ensure the organization and the competition for the creation of such emblem in the first half of 2008; that's 15 years after the publication of the postage stamp with this logo.[1] Does anyone know what happened next? Poeticbent talk 05:13, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Problem with article lead

(Comment moved from my own talk):

"The information restored to the page is incorrect (see United States (1988), Investigation of the Ukrainian Famine, 1932-1933: report to Congress. Washington: U.S. G.P.O. pp. vii, xxiii, xv, 517).

In addition Congress has passed at least one resolution recognizing Holodomor as genocide (see "Resolution of the House of Representatives of the US (HRES 356)," U.S. Government Printing Office. 20 October 2003).

The page, thus, currently inaccurately represents the position of the United States and ought to be changed. Rbudel1 (talk) 18:16, 1 December 2017 (UTC)"[reply]

The relevant edit by Rbudel1 is here. My revert - here - was based on the removal of what has become default consensus content without any form of edit summary. The content itself is WP:WEASEL: unacceptable for the content of an article anywhere in the body, but appalling and misleading for the lede of the article.

Statement currently in the lead: "Some, such as the United States and Europe, recognize that the Holodomor was an attack on the Ukrainian people, but do not recognize it as a genocide."

A) As noted by Rbudel1, dependent on the venue in which 'Holodomor' is evaluated by the US, mixed messages have been sent. The difference between internal and global political 'positions' is substantive (as is indicated by various actions). B) "Europe"? Hungary, Poland, Spain, etc. are not European countries? Perhaps this is meant to refer to the 'findings' of the European Parliamentary report a few years ago? Even if it were, the findings came with a big question mark in the form of urging for the opening up of archives and cooperation between ex-Eastern block countries (see European Parliament resolution of 23 October 2008 on the commemoration of the Holodomor, the Ukraine artificial famine (1932-1933)). Due to the complexity of the nature of the subject, and the brevity of the article itself, it's understood that a single paragraph lede is probably the format to maintain, but it needs to be accurate. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:49, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Material moved here from Holodomor genocide question

Hello, I've moved the material in the section "positions of governments" from the article Holodomor genocide question to here because most of the content here duplicates the content there, and it seems better to have two specific articles (one scholarly, one political) than one broad and one specific. FuzzyCatPotato (talk) 23:46, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Inconsistency

The list of countries that recognise the Holodomor as an act of Genocide in this article does not correspond the map Holodomor World recognition.png shown in the same section. Is the map out of date? or is the list not accurate. Perhaps a new map should be created, or the list should be reevaluated.Underneaththesun (talk) 09:20, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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