Talk:American Descendants of Slavery
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Deletion.
African Descendants of Slavery. The Me Too movement has a Wikipedia article and so does Black Lives matter. Which are similar to African Descendants of Slavery. Adjoajo (talk) 21:37, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
These are not the same movements and all need their own seperate pages. DeWente69 (talk) 23:00, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
African Descendants of Slavery.
All Lives Matter, Blue Lives Matter, Me too movement, Black Lives Matter movement they all have Wikipedia articles. Adjoajo (talk) 22:04, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
Let's stay on topic
Reminder that his is a page about an organization. It should not attempt to cover the borader topic of reparations for slavery, we have articles that do that. This article needs to be about this ORG and its notable activities. And it needs to be written using WP:SECONDARY sources.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:31, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
*Correction: This article is about a political movement centered around a specific ethnicity and a unique lineage. LineageFirst (talk) 18:25, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
During edits please remember to keep the history portion in tact. It describes the lineage which is the core of the org's advocacy. If we need to go full historical researcher mode and make a *separate* page to go in depth about the American DOS lineage (using hard facts heavily referenced) maybe that could be our next step. JupitersRedDot (talk) 20:20, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
NPOV
Reads like it's written by the organisation, fails to suggest it's anti-immigration.[1] More or less needs a complete rewrite. Doug Weller talk 17:35, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
This page is a direct smear and places no emphasis on the mission of ADOS. Any changes are reverted back to the original propaganda piece. ADOSFileG (talk) 06:41, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
There is Bias by editor this group isn’t anti immigration nor supportive of trump. See ABC ARTICLE https://abcnews.go.com/US/controversial-group-ados-divides-black-americans-fight-economic/story?id=66832680
People with agendas to paint this movement as right wing should not be allowed to edit this page and add bias. Both founding members are black life long Democrat’s. It is entirely omitted that Yvette Carnell worked for the DNC and was an aide to Congresswoman Boxer of CA. This page is highly inaccurate. Truthsayer21 (talk) 22:13, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
Via ABC Carnell denies his accusations.
“I voted for Clinton,” she told ABC News. “I voted for Obama, 2008. The idea that somehow I changed my psyche, became an ultra-conservative figure doesn’t make sense.”
Truthsayer21 (talk) 22:15, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
In addition Farah Stockman author of The NY Times article makes clear that there has been research and ADOS is not funded by the right. See here https://twitter.com/tonetalks/status/1192882005433733121?s=21
Literally this page is someone smearing rather than explaining. The group is nearly all made up of democratic voters. Why is there so much mention of Trump and the Right wing on this page? It has bias Truthsayer21 (talk) 05:40, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
- First, you really need to read WP:AGF and don't attack other editors - if you are talking about me, I've probably blocked at least as many racists as any other Administrator here - the article has to have the negative as well as the positive. The ABC article looks good particularly since it's recent. My question is what would you like to see added to the article? I'd like you to write a paragraph or two (not long ones) showing what you'd like the article to say based on the ABC piece. Read WP:NPOV first though. Then there's this.[2], a bit of it might be useful, but of course attributed to the author, not stated in Wikipedia's voice. Doug Weller talk 10:26, 11 March 2020 (UTC) @Truthsayer21: pinging, and can I remind editors here about WP:COI, if any of you are connected with ADOS you should declare your connection per WP:DISCLOSE. Doug Weller talk 10:28, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
User:MRHICK01:I respectfully push back at the initial, and ongoing explanations used as justification around maintaining the existing version (as of July 4, 2020) of this problematic Wikipedia article about ADOS. Being a member of this ethnic category as well as being a member of this organization should not in an of itself render responses, requests or even demands for edits compromised and/or illegitimate.
Framing is everything. My contention is that the first paragraph starts as an entryway of misleading arguments made about ADOS and about one of the co-founders, Yvette Carnell. These problems demand that the structure and framing of this entry have a near line-by-line deconstruction of the edits made on the original edits that I made December 2019.
My first concern is: This "American Descendants of Slavery" article frames this group in a pejorative light, and this Wikipedia entry should not do such a thing.
For example, this selection: "...calling for the descendants of slaves to be given priority over other African Americans and to have their own racial classification..." is a misleading statement lacking context and presents a troublesome appearance that the group holds dangerous positions that compromise its integrity or legitimacy. What is being called for is not an additional "racial" classification. If anything, it is an expansion of United States Census interpretation of ethnicity as it concerns Black Americans.
Next, "...to be given priority" is a selection that could be interpreted as asking for something this group should not and does not deserve. Such a wording poses a danger through not allowing objectivity nor understanding about the group. This is the durable problem the first paragraph presents to the entire Wiki entry about ADOS. If an argument is that an entry should not more or less be a propaganda piece arguing for ADOS, neither should it be one that frames the movement as one with sinister notions or illegitimate.
Let us examine another selection. "They believe that the differences are enough to establish different ethnicities between the groups and that descendants of slaves are disadvantaged compared to other African Americans." This is another troublesome sentence. As framed, there is a danger that it can lead others to react negatively to and about ADOS. The "differences" that ADOS have center around the problem of a people in America denied accurate redress for the atrocities they have suffered as a group since being brought to the shores of what came to be known as America in 1619, and what was the United States of America after 1776.
ADOS, as political movement, are a group of American citizens who assert legal standing whose ancestors were brought to this nation involuntarily, in chains, subjected to innumerable atrocities over the centuries that are yet not sufficiently addressed.
The ADOS political position is well described by authors William A. Darity, Jr. and A. Kirsten Mullen, authors of "From Here To Equality: Reparations For Black Americans in the Twenty-First Century":
"Racism and discrimination have perpetually crippled black economic opportunities. At several historic moments the trajectory of racial inequality could have been altered dramatically, but at each juncture, the road chosen did not lead to a just and fair America.
The formation of the republic provided a critical moment when blacks might have been granted freedom and admitted to full citizenship. The Civil War and the Reconstruction era each offered openings to produce a true democracy thoroughly inclusive of Black Americans. Had the New Deal project and the GI Bill fully included blacks, the nation would have widened the window of opportunity to achieve an equitable future. Passage of civil rights legislation in the 1960s might have unlocked the door for America to eradicate racism.
However, at none of these forks was the path to full justice taken." [1]
ADOS' very existence is because of the economic divide between black and white Americans. More from Darity & Mullen:
...Specifically, we contend, a suitably designed program of reparations can close the divide. Black reparations can place America squarely on the path to racial equality." [2]
The ADOS argument for redress and justice draws a thick line from the nation's origins to the present. The ADOS argument for specificity is based upon three tiers or phases of injustice that afflicts Black American descendants of chattel slavery to the present: "slavery, American apartheid (Jim Crow), and the combined effects of present-day discrimination and the ongoing deprecation of Black lives." [3]
This is the context that is lacking in the first paragraph, and the lack of such facts lead to the final three sentences of the first paragraph presenting biased, wrong conclusions and dangerous misinformation about both ADOS and Yvette Carnell. Who has determined that "Progressives For Immigration Reform" are an anti-immigration group? Second, what does wearing a red "Make America Great Again (MAGA)" hat have to do with anything concerning ADOS as a political movement? In the original YouTube video, the hat was literally used a prop, a plot device around a larger issue topic of whether ADOS as a group would be able to have its interests addressed from the Trump administration, as he had just won the November 2016 election and had become the president-elect. The hat was not a statement of any formal affiliation or affinity with the Republican Party or American conservatives, particularly white American conservatives, who harbor bigoted or even racist views about Black Americans or others. Third, where is the argument or evidence "the group has received support from conservatives" above or beyond an Ann Coulter Tweet? Ann Coulter's presence in this entry only exists to delegitimize the ADOS American justice claim because the structure of the first paragraph frames an argument of "Ann Coulter is a polemic and incendiary American conservative (who, by extension, should be shunned or dismissed by upright human beings), she posted a Tweet 'liking' the hashtag #ADOS, so there, #ADOS should be viewed in the same light as Ann Coulter." This is problematic and a fatal error for this Wikipedia entry. All of it needs to go. If Ann Coulter also likes air and breathing, should the rest of us stop doing so because a disagreeable person has an opinion?
Ann Coulter has never been, and is in no way affiliated with the ADOS political movement. As can be witnessed, her suggestion of "...but I think it should be #DOAS — Descendants of American Slaves..." has never been applied or even taken seriously by members who profess an affinity or affiliation with ADOS.
Other non-ADOS Black Americans who have had parents or grandparents emigrate to America after 1965 and whose children are born American citizens, have likely experienced individual acts of racism from bigoted individuals or even as representatives of larger institutions that may harbor some latent or even intention skin-color biases that cause harm to said Black Americans...however that is not the same argument of ADOS. The American Descendants of Slavery seek redress as a group of legal standing in the United States, American citizens, whose ancestors have been the burden-bearers of (and this is critical) slavery in this nation called America since its founding via the Declaration of Independence in 1776.
From my perspective, it seems that the contention of "This article may rely excessively on sources too closely associated with the subject, potentially preventing the article from being verifiable and neutral. (December 2019)" has been used as a bludgeon to erase every and all subsequent complaints about the framing of this article. I have less interest in divining the "why" of this, as opposed to demanding that changes be made and such edits that change this problematic framing be allowed to remain as the official entry and not consistently reversed by one or two editors who have made wrongful assumptions about ADOS, whether they be accidental or intentional.
tl;dr Allow for a better explained Wikipedia article about "American Descendants of Slavery (ADOS)," because as constituted, this is not it. MRHICK01 (talk) 04:22, 5 July 2020 (UTC) MRHICK01 (talk)
- I think it can be improved but the editors coming from ADOS don't seem aware or perhaps interested in our policies and guidelines. We can't use Twitter as a source, any context needs to come from reliable independent sources discussing ADOS (eg [3]), and we have to show the good and the bad. If you have independent reliable sources describing ADOS that aren't in the article, by all means bring them here. What we cannot do is depend only upon ADOS for a description of itself. ADOS is controversial (see sources in article and others such as [4] and that has to be reflected in the article. The controversy seems to have even reached Nigeria.[5]
- @MRHICK01: how about writing a description of the movement that is reliably sourced with sources that discuss ADOS and shows all significant viewpoints. Start a new section here. Use Help:Referencing for beginners to cite. Doug Weller talk 12:16, 5 July 2020 (UTC) Two more sources, [6] and [7] I also agree with the editor below that we can use the Vox source for "But this movement has also faced criticism — not for its call for reparations, but for how it discusses immigration and black identity. Critics have argued that some ADOS activists are openly xenophobic and that the movement endorses an unnecessarily limited definition of “blackness,” dismissing the ways slavery and colonization have affected other groups in the African diaspora. When I asked Moore and Carnell to respond to these criticisms earlier this year, they said that the movement was “seeking to establish that there was a specific debt to a specific group of people.”. This allows a response to the criticism. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/3/11/18246741/reparations-democrats-2020-inequality-warren-harris-castro] Doug Weller talk 12:47, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
References
- ^ From Here to Equality: Reparations for Black Americans in the Twenty-First Century, William A. Darity and A. Kirsten Mullen. University of North Carolina Press, 2020, page 1: Introduction
- ^ From Here to Equality: Reparations for Black Americans in the Twenty-First Century, William A. Darity and A. Kirsten Mullen. University of North Carolina Press, 2020, page 1: Introduction, https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5149/9781469654997_darity
- ^ Darity & Mullen, p. 5
User:MRHICK01 A submission being flagged and denied for a COI is unconscionable in this instance! The initial paragraph along with the editor guidance were all considered in the sourcing and resubmission! It is concerning enough that I was labeled as COI, fine, I understand...if there are references that have missing flags that need to be refined, understandable, those can be brought into compliance as well.
What appears to be happening here, however, is that "conflict of interest" concerns are being left to use as a bludgeon to silence critiques around a nakedly slanted misrepresentation of what an organization is versus what a public record actually states. What, specifically, in my revision, was especially problematic and what needs to be done to bring it into acceptance? As it stands, these COI concern trolling provides a convenient excuse. MRHICK01 (talk) 22:30, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
User:MRHICK01 It is both unfortunate and disturbing that I am being flagged for a "conflict of interest." My submissions can be, and should be judged on the veracity of its content and whether all sources can be properly traced. In our submissions on July 17 & 18, I strived to do so to the best of my ability.
I can accept that my submissions for this subject would have to be third-party reviewed before considering an update, but to have them rejected summarily out of hand because...reasons, is unacceptable. This is a touchy subject. This is much like you are telling Black Americans that they cannot add or delete or edit information to a Wiki article because they're Black American creating a "conflict of interest." Moreover, those that render and judge such decisions have to be non-Black American, because...how could they possibly be objective?
That may not be the intent, but the optics are horrible. MRHICK01 (talk) 14:08, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
- @MRHICK01: please don't start a post with your username, it looks as though it's addressed to you and it's only when you read down to the bottom that we find out it's from you. The COI suggestion is because you describe yourself as " Co-facilitator of #ADOSLouisville. #ADOS Ambassador." No one should reject a suggestion from someone with a conflict of interest just because of that conflict, and I certainly haven't. If you read WP:COI, and I hope you do, it's very clear about that: "That someone has a conflict of interest is a description of a situation, not a judgement about that person's opinions, integrity, or good faith." Doug Weller talk 16:53, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Doug Weller: there is a massive amount of form and process in the management of this platform that I have yet to understand. There is a...not small amount of information that has to be absorbed about how to do things on this medium.
That said, any errors to date have not been any rooted in ill intent. It is the basis of that concept, "not rooted in ill intent," that formed the crux of my edit wishes. My challenge has been in understanding how to properly do all of this.
As a person who happens to be African American, a member, if you will, ethnically of "American Descendants of Slavery," I have been aware, and made aware, of durable criticisms that have been made about the political movement. I absolutely understand that this medium is an online encyclopedia that does its utmost to have the highest of standards and objectivity. It is that understanding, in part, that guides my motivation to edit the critical selections around ADOS, not for the purpose of removing negative information merely for its sake, but for the fact that the charges of right-wing affiliations are simply not true, and they can be verified from two sources: an ABC News article that covered Yvette Carnell and the ADOS movement in January 2020 as well as a source directly from the reporter who covered an inaugural ADOS conference in Louisville, Kentucky for a story that published November 8, 2019...but it was commentary via Tweet where Farah Stockman explicitly stated that she had no evidence of conservative or right-wing affiliations that drove the ADOS political movement. That matters.
This process has been extremely, and in my opinion, unnecessarily frustrating. I acknowledge that there is much about this platform that I need to come to understand, and I'm willing to learn it. However, my interactions with this process are not positive. MRHICK01 (talk) 18:36, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request
User:MRHICK01: Please change the entire first paragraph of the American Descendants of Slavery article to:
![]() | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
American Descendants of Slavery (ADOS) is a lineage-focused political movement that advocates for the specific justice claim held by the descendants of Africans enslaved in the United States from its colonial period to the present. "ADOS…sets out to shift the dialogue around the identity of what it is to be African American in an effort to move the discussion from melanin, and properly center the discussion around lineage.”[1] ADOS as both an identity and a political movement developed out of a necessity for targeted policies to address the cumulative injustices committed against ADOS, of which the wealth gap that exists between their group and other population cohorts is that legacy’s most vivid expression[2], in tandem with an comprehensive black agenda as detailed in their “New Deal For Black America”[3]. As American citizens, ADOS assert that the numerous injustices committed specifically against their group have never been sufficiently addressed. The argument for specificity is based upon three tiers or phases of injustice that afflicts Black American descendants of chattel slavery to the current moment: "slavery, American apartheid (Jim Crow), and the combined effects of present-day discrimination and the ongoing deprecation of Black lives."[4]. Therefore, in order to highlight the need for targeted, comprehensive repair, their political interests suggest a reconsideration of the U.S. Census definition of ethnicity to individuate their group from black. The ADOS argument for redress reveals a thick line from the nation’s origins directly to the present.[5]
The ADOS movement has also faced criticism — not for its call for reparations, but for how it discusses immigration and black identity. Critics have argued that some ADOS activists are openly xenophobic and that the movement endorses an unnecessarily limited definition of “blackness,” dismissing the ways slavery and colonization have affected other groups in the African diaspora. For #ADOS activists, though, the question is not about “blackness.” “This whole argument…is really ridiculous,” Yvette Carnell, a cofounder of the #ADOS movement, said in an interview (in February 2019). “We’re saying there is a difference in the justice demands for people who are descendants of slaves in this country and those who were enslaved (elsewhere).”[6] Antonio Moore, also a cofounder, responded to the critique as follows: “To say that is to ignore the ... struggle that undergirds this group from slavery to Jim Crow to mass incarceration. Our families built America and now suffer because everyone wants to ignore that reality.”[7]
There have been additional criticisms of ADOS that the hashtag is linked to posts spreading disinformation and political division ahead of the presidential election. In a January 2020 web news and video article, ABC News found "no concrete evidence that the ADOS movement is part of the disinformation campaigns that plagued the 2016 election.”[8] Farah Stockman, New York Times reporter who covered the inaugural #ADOS Conference[9], said in a November 2019 Tweet on her account of these accusations: “As much as I love a good conspiracy, I also know black women are fully capable of making up their minds without funding from white men. Unless I see evidence, I accept Yvette Carnell as a true believer in what she is saying.”[10]
MRHICK01 (talk) 05:00, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
- @MRHICK01: it wouldn't be right for me to decide on this because I'm involved. First, this is an article, the word Wiki refers to a website. The material from ABC news is a copyright violation which I'll leave temporarily although technically I should delete it. We'd need page numbers for Derity and Mullen and since there's no preview, could you please quote the text from the book which backs the text you wish to add. We need secondary sources for some of the material from ADOS itself - this is standard - I'm not saying this is true of ADOS, but some organisations and people try to present a public face which is there to make something not so good look good. I don't see sources for the criticisms or at least some of them, and we don't use Twitter as a source.
- Finally, the WP:LEAD needs to summarise the main points of the article (which is where most of the sources should be, backing up those points). Does yours? Doug Weller talk 11:01, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
- I should also note that given that you call yourself an ADOS Ambassador, you have a conflict of interest so making proposals here first is a good idea. Doug Weller talk 12:02, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
References
- ^ "#ADOS – American Descendants of Slavery".
- ^ Russ, Valerie. "It's not whether Kamala Harris is 'black enough,' critics say, but whether her policies will support native black Americans". https://www.inquirer.com. Retrieved 16 July 2020.
{{cite news}}
: External link in
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- ^ "Black Agenda – #ADOS". Retrieved 18 July 2020.
- ^ Darity, Jr., William A.; Mullen, A. Kirsten (2020). From here to equality : reparations for black Americans in the twenty-first century. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press. p. 5. ISBN 978-1-4696-5497-3.
{{cite book}}
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specified (help) - ^ Darity, Jr., William A.; Mullen, A. Kirsten (2020). From here to equality : reparations for black Americans in the twenty-first century. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press. p. 5. ISBN 978-1-4696-5497-3.
{{cite book}}
:|access-date=
requires|url=
(help); More than one of|pages=
and|page=
specified (help) - ^ Russ, Valerie. "It's not whether Kamala Harris is 'black enough,' critics say, but whether her policies will support native black Americans". https://www.inquirer.com. Retrieved 16 July 2020.
{{cite news}}
: External link in
(help)|work=
- ^ Russ, Valerie. "It's not whether Kamala Harris is 'black enough,' critics say, but whether her policies will support native black Americans". https://www.inquirer.com. Retrieved 16 July 2020.
{{cite news}}
: External link in
(help)|work=
- ^ News, ABC. "Controversial group ADOS divides black Americans in fight for economic equality". ABC News. Retrieved 9 July 2020.
{{cite web}}
:|last1=
has generic name (help) - ^ Stockman, Farah (8 November 2019). "'We're Self-Interested': The Growing Identity Debate in Black America". The New York Times. Retrieved 18 July 2020.
- ^ Stockman, Farah. "https://twitter.com/fstockman/status/1192845855100932096". Twitter. Retrieved 8 November 2019.
{{cite web}}
: External link in
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User:MRHICK01On Farah Stockman: "Twitter as a source" is relevant here because it was commentary about her New York Times article that she did not include in her primary piece, and/or was edited out of the article that is particularly relevant to the ADOS article and the criticism against it and Yvette Carnell in this online encyclopedia. This would appear to be a circumstance that would demand an exception.
Why would quotes from an ABC news article be a copyright violation if you are referencing commentary directly relevant to answering critics? If you are acknowledging where the source comes from? Fair use?
The page numbers that reference the Darity/Mullen parts from the book are included in the references.
Certainly this article must meet Wikipedia's demanding standards. It is concerning, however, that there appears to be a level of pushback that leans favorable to critiques of ADOS as opposed to citing, acknowledging them and presenting an accounting of facts. The main points of the article...well, there was an original entry that I submitted in December 2019, but nearly all of it was taken apart and replaced with a Frankenstein of an article.
A number of the references in the current iteration of the article references realities, as I must be honest, have nothing to do with American Descendants of Slavery as neither identity nor political movement. ADOS is an American politically self-interested group as well as ethnicity. "Supporters of ADOS push the issue on social media with the hashtag #ADOS, a hashtag which the New York Times reported has been used by Trump supporters." This was written by Stockman in the New York Times article. However, so what? Critics have said such things, but those criticisms are not factually accurate. Moreover, it is problematic that the rules that this digital encyclopedia requires are being used as a bludgeon to legitimize these right-wing critiques. That is particularly troublesome.
In that Stockman New York Times article, there is also this: "But Mr. Moore, 39, and Ms. Carnell, 44, say they are not scapegoating black immigrants or trying to lead black voters astray. They say they are merely demanding something tangible from Democrats in exchange for votes and trying to raise awareness around the economic struggles of many black Americans.
Ms. Carnell said she learned of the huge disparities in inherited wealth that left black Americans with a tiny share of the economic pie by reading reports, including an Institute for Policy Studies report that predicted the median wealth of black families would drop to zero by 2053. Mr. Moore had been talking about some of the same studies on his own YouTube channel. The two joined forces in 2016 and coined the term ADOS, which spread as a hashtag on social media."
I must continue to respectfully assert: if this article in Wikipedia cannot be and is not a press release (and should not be) for the American Descendants of Slavery article, neither should it be allowed to legitimize critiques that about right-wing alliances or harmful other positions that do not exist. I find that especially problematic. MRHICK01 (talk) 13:12, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
- The ABC material seems to be missing a beginning quotation mark, and I missed the end one. As for Stockman, you want to use some of what she wrote but not other bits? And so far as I've seen, not all or even most of the criticism has been right wing. And we still need quotes from the book, page numbers aren't enough. No disrespect but new editors often don't understand our sourcing policy. A source can be very good but not used correctly. I don't have time to keep responding. Doug Weller talk 14:37, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
- I've notified the three Wikiprojects mentioned above, asking for someone uninvolved to help. Doug Weller talk 14:41, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
Not done
ADOS as both an identity and a political movement developed out of a necessity for targeted policies to address the cumulative injustices committed against ADOS
in the voice of WP seems to be POV. Also, the lede would become too long in relation to the article. Since MRHICK01 (talk · contribs) is an ADOS ambassador (as he honestly tells us on his user page) and all his contributions so far are connected with ADOS, WP:COI applies. --Rsk6400 (talk) 18:15, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
MRHICK01Unacceptable. My position does not give me a "biased" point of view if this section is rewritten as a neutral lede. Given that this is a topic on a matter of race and race in America, this argument leads to a slippery-slope of who can and cannot edit and or submit suggestions, and that is highly problematic. As it stands, nothing about the lede of this Wikipedia article as it stands currently is neutral. MRHICK01 (talk) 22:08, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
User:MRHICK01: Please change the entire first paragraph of the American Descendants of Slavery article from:
American Descendants of Slavery (ADOS) is a lineage-focused political movement that seeks to advocate for people who are descendants of the enslaved Africans in America from its colonial period onward. It focuses on the difference between African Americans whose ancestors were slaves and those whose ancestors were not, calling for the descendants of slaves to be given priority over other African Americans and to have their own racial classification. They believe that the differences are enough to establish different ethnicities between the groups and that descendants of slaves are disadvantaged compared to other African Americans. Their skepticism concerning immigration has attracted criticism and the suggestion that they are dividing African Americans and targeting Democrats. One of its founders, Yvette Carnell, was a board member of "Progressives for Immigration Reform", described by the Southern Poverty Law Center as an anti-immigration group.[1] The group has received support from conservatives including Ann Coulter who weeted "I like #ADOS, but I think it should be #DOAS — Descendants of American slaves. Not Haitian slaves, not Moroccan slaves", and criticism from the left.[2]
to:
American Descendants of Slavery (ADOS) is a lineage-focused political movement that advocates for the specific justice claim held by the descendants of Africans enslaved in the United States from its colonial period to the present. "ADOS…sets out to shift the dialogue around the identity of what it is to be African American in an effort to move the discussion from melanin, and properly center the discussion around lineage.”[1] As American citizens, ADOS assert that the numerous injustices committed specifically against their group have never been sufficiently addressed. The argument for specificity is based upon three tiers or phases of injustice that afflicts Black American descendants of chattel slavery to the current moment: "slavery, American apartheid (Jim Crow), and the combined effects of present-day discrimination and the ongoing deprecation of Black lives."[2]. Therefore, in order to highlight the need for targeted, comprehensive repair, their political interests suggest a reconsideration of the U.S. Census definition of ethnicity to individuate their group from black. The ADOS movement has also faced criticism — not for its call for reparations, but for how it discusses immigration and black identity. Critics have argued that some ADOS activists are openly xenophobic and that the movement endorses an unnecessarily limited definition of “blackness,” dismissing the ways slavery and colonization have affected other groups in the African diaspora. For #ADOS activists, though, the question is not about “blackness.” “This whole argument…is really ridiculous,” Yvette Carnell, a cofounder of the #ADOS movement, said in an interview (in February 2019). “We’re saying there is a difference in the justice demands for people who are descendants of slaves in this country and those who were enslaved (elsewhere).”[3] MRHICK01 (talk) 23:04, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
Not done @MRHICK01: I think the current lede is pretty neutral and based on WP:RS. Regarding bias: I'd suggest that you read WP:CoI, in particular this sentence:
That someone has a conflict of interest is a description of a situation, not a judgement about that person's opinions, integrity, or good faith
, meaning that nobody has doubts about your integrity. And please remember that WP editors are voluntarily sacrificing part of their time in order to build a quality encyclopedia. --Rsk6400 (talk) 15:24, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
User:MRHICK01 And Rsk6400, I have invested two weeks of my time inquiring, engaging in rewrites to comply with Wikipedia standards, and being repeatedly, summarily rejected. So I am voluntarily sacrificing my time as well, and my time is every bit as valuable as yours. Or Doug Weller's.
What does "pretty neutral" actually mean? What about this selection of the lede is "pretty neutral?"
From what source did this selection in the first paragraph, "One of its founders, Yvette Carnell, was a board member of "Progressives for Immigration Reform" come from?
I understand that the rest of the sentence, "described by the Southern Poverty Law Center as an anti-immigration group" is cited from the article at https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2020/01/31/workers-organization-shares-staff-cash-anti-immigrant-groups, but Yvette Carnell's name is not in that article. Why is it there? Why is the Carnell affiliation uncited? Where did this selection come from, what source? Why has this selection been allowed to remain on this Wikipedia article for months and every request to remove this manipulative text denied?
Moreover, there should be an opportunity, and it has been recorded in nationally recognized, public sources, that the implications assumed around such connections (PFIR) be explained, but you are not allowing for that explanation. You are allowing an undeserved value judgment to be made about the American Descendants of Slavery, and I find that disgusting. This is not an example of a "quality encyclopedia."
Next, what's the relevance of an Ann Coulter Tweet to the ADOS political movement? Why is this even in the lede? Yes, NY Times reporter Farah Stockman included that about the inaugural ADOS Conference in her November 8, 2019 article, but why would a subsequent Stockman Tweet, specifically referencing the article that she wrote for the Times, disavowing Carnell's links to the right-wing and shadowy affiliations be repeatedly disallowed? Challenge! Objection!
"Pretty neutral" my eye. The Coulter sentences must be removed. As soon as possible. Immediately.
My respectful contention is this: an article does need to be balanced, and for an encylopedia's purposes, it has to deal with many facets of a subject in limited space. The problem is the links and suggestions of right wing associations are erroneous. They are not true. And repeated attempt to contend with that issue have been rejected—at first, for reasons of form and process bordering on pedantry, but it has unfortunately evolved to rejection because of "conflict of interest." Such conflict should at worst, if one is not operating in bad faith, be subject for peer review, but we cannot ever garner that, and it is not just. MRHICK01 (talk) 17:32, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
Note: I can't tell what the hell is going on with the template usage. Whatever it is, I'm closing the request since there seems to be no consensus for the change. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 20:06, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
References
- ^ "#ADOS – American Descendants of Slavery".
- ^ Darity, Jr., William A.; Mullen, A. Kirsten (2020). From here to equality : reparations for black Americans in the twenty-first century. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press. p. 5. ISBN 978-1-4696-5497-3.
{{cite book}}
:|access-date=
requires|url=
(help); More than one of|pages=
and|page=
specified (help) - ^ Russ, Valerie. "It's not whether Kamala Harris is 'black enough,' critics say, but whether her policies will support native black Americans". https://www.inquirer.com. Retrieved 16 July 2020.
{{cite news}}
: External link in
(help)|work=
Page Errors
There are a several issues with this page. It is being used to smear rather than explain ADOS American Descendants of Slavery. 1) It fails to mention that cofounder Antonio Moore wrote for several years for left leaning economic think tank Institute For Policy Studies through their site Inequality.org Link https://inequality.org/authors/antonio-moore/ All while having information about Carnell that is both incomplete and inaccurate.
In addition it cites to NY Times article by finding every negative claim but omits the overall content of the article and any positives. It should include both positives and negatives or none.
As an example the page says Ann Coulter supports ADOS. When the text of the Times article only says she wrote a tweet. That has no place on the description page as if she funded, promoted or is in leadership of ADOS which she does not it was one tweet which says the name should be changed. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/08/us/slavery-black-immigrants-ados.html Here tweet was a direct attack and request to change our name and was only this single tweet. Why would it be on a wikipedia describing the group. Full Coulter Tweet Tariq: I like #ADOS, but I think it should be #DOAS - Descendants of American slaves. Not Haitian slaves, not Moroccan slaves, etc. Truthsayer21 (talk) 07:43, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, that's the tweet. "Like" surely means support, but I've changed the text to show the full tweet. This WAPO article from last year[8] looks like a good source as it's making the point about the distinction between those whose ancestors were American slaves and those who were not. It calls Moore part of a group of liberal activists, which I think is part of your argument. Of course it also says "Carnell once wore a “Make America Great Again” hat in a video, later saying it was a joke. The ADOS website, maintained by Carnell and Moore, says data support Trump’s assertion that black voters have “nothing to lose” by seeking an alternative to the Democratic Party. Carnell and Moore attack prominent liberals who have advocated a public study of the reparations issue, including author Ta-Nehisi Coates, calling the notion of a preliminary study a “cop-out” and criticizing Coates’s past support of Obama. Tweets carrying the ADOS hashtag regularly raise the possibility of supporting Trump in 2020 or otherwise punishing Democrats if they don’t endorse a lineage-based reparations program." which gives some balance. Doug Weller talk 10:11, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
This response shows that the person editing is making there own message on This page. Saying I’m a liberal activist cleans nothing up. I Wright for a left wing think tank for two years it needs to be corrected. Also Carnell worked for the DNC, voted Democratic her whole life and worked for two democratic congressmen as a political aide. You need to correct this or we can simply elevate it to a have a 3rd party review. What was Addis’s five little to no balance. Also a random singular tweet from Coulter has no place on our description page. We had Cornell West and Marianne Williamson as speakers at our conference. What the editor Weller did was attempt to paint a group made up almost entirely of Democratic voters as right wing. carnell has 200 shows he basically took 20 seconds of a clip to paint her as wearing a hat daily. This must be changed. It is a description page. Truthsayer21 (talk) 01:19, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
Typo I wrote for a left wing think tank for two years on wealth inequality inequality.org. This whole page needs to be corrected. Truthsayer21 (talk) 01:20, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
Coulter is not supporting ADOS as a movement she’s saying the terminology should be changed but peaked her interest. Why is her tweet on this description page as if she’s on a board, contributes money or was a keynote speaker. Literally this editor has no mention of Cornel West and this inappropriate add of Coulter and Carnell wearing a hat. Truthsayer21 (talk) 01:23, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
American Descendants of Slavery is a reparations and black agenda movement, with a specific lineage as a qualifier.
Although lineage is the qualifier, it is unnecessary to mention it in the paragraph lead as an ethnic distiction or comparison to other groups while omitting the MAIN purpose of ADOS, which revolves around a black agenda and reparations in reponse to a lineage/racial wealth gap sourced from leading economists.
The following below is a misrepresentation.
"It focuses on the difference between African Americans whose ancestors were slaves and those whose ancestors were not, calling for the descendants of slaves to be given priority over other African Americans and to have their own racial classification."
ADOSFileG (talk) 02:13, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
3O Response: I mentioned in my prior response that a black agenda and reparations in response to empirical linrage/wealth gap data are the central focus of American Descendants of Slavery with it's distinct lineage as a qualifier. The source below from Vox Media, reflects this same stance with the ADOS founders.
"'Antonio Moore and Yvette Carnell, the co-founders of and most prominent voices in the current ADOS movement, explained that they believe that ADOS should be seen as a specific identity.
On its website, the movement says that it “seeks to reclaim/restore the critical national character of the African American identity and experience, one grounded in our group’s unique lineage.”
When it comes to reparations, Moore says, “we’re not having an abstract conversation about what whiteness and blackness makes you feel. We’re having a very detailed conversation about what the data means for black people.”
“We are talking about repairing black communities,” he adds.
On Twitter, and through online radio programs and YouTube channels, Moore and Carnell have argued that policy — and politicians — need to focus more on specific issues affecting black Americans descended from slavery in the US. They call for reparations as part of a larger “black agenda” that looks at things like ending mass incarceration, investing in historically black colleges and universities, and increasing federal investment in small businesses.'"
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/3/11/18246741/reparations-democrats-2020-inequality-warren-harris-castro > ADOSFileG (talk) 03:02, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
ADOSFileG (talk) 03:02, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
- @Truthsayer21: you haven't responded to my request in the section above to suggest some wording for the article. You also appear to be saying publicly that you are Antonio Moore ("I wrote") - ah, you've said something similar on your talk page a few days ago, but you still haven't complied with WP:COI. Your colleague User:ADOSFileG is smearing me on Twitter. This doesn't make me inclined to help, but I have improved the description of you and Carnell. Comply with COI and suggest some text as asked for above and I may be willing to help more. Meanwhile you can go to WP:NPOVN if you wish. User:ADOSFileG you also appear to have a conflict of interest here. And your opinion isn't a "3rd opinion" as you've already edited. Doug Weller talk 17:10, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
Ok I’ll suggest text in coming days. Truthsayer21 (talk) 19:54, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
- @Truthsayer21: 4 months later and you haven't done this. And by the way, if you want me to take you seriously, retract the lie about my edit making it look as though she wore a hat daily. An edit I've deleted anyway by the way. Doug Weller talk 13:03, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
No problem in retracting that red hat statement and thanks for the help but again this page still has issues above the fold. How do you have this Ann Coulter tweet to neither Cofounder on a page about Black activism because she felt like tweeting? But you have omitted both Cornel West and Marianne Williamson coming on my show for hrs and coming across the country to attend the ados conference. This Coulter tweet has no place on an about us. Again please remove it. I have no issue retracting the hat comment. In addition If your going to mention Yvette and the Pfir board in the top fold you have to mention me and inequality.org in the top fold. You can’t pick and choose. Or you can cut both out and move that section down where you discuss us individually. Look at the 2hrs with Cornel West I did with just yesterday Tonetalks Youtube. I don’t know anything about that Coulter tweet.
User:MRHICK01Query: From what source did this selection in the first paragraph, "One of its founders, Yvette Carnell, was a board member of "Progressives for Immigration Reform" come from?
I understand that the rest of the sentence, "described by the Southern Poverty Law Center as an anti-immigration group" is cited from the article at https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2020/01/31/workers-organization-shares-staff-cash-anti-immigrant-groups, but Yvette Carnell's name is not in that article. Why is it there? Why is the Carnell affilation uncited? Why has this selection been allowed to remain on this Wikipedia article for months and every request to remove this manipulative text denied?
Next, what's the relevance of an Ann Coulter Tweet to the ADOS political movement? Why is this even in the lede? Yes, NY Times reporter Farah Stockman included that about the inaugural ADOS Conference in her November 8, 2019 article, but why would a subsequent Stockman Tweet, specifically referencing the article that she wrote for the Times, disavowing Carnell's links to the right-wing and shadowy affiliations be repeatedly disallowed? Challenge! Objection!
The Coulter sentences must be removed. As soon as possible. Immediately. MRHICK01 (talk) 23:21, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
Someone keeps editing this page with an Agenda. Ados was on the cover of the NY Times in print. And has chapters across the country. Please block the person adding this to our page. Or just remove the page if you cant monitor it properly. This is the inaccurate line: "It is a group of about 60 people in the Atlanta, Georgia area, as of early 2020" --
The source they are using is a local Atlanta news site piece on one single chapter in Atlanta which is 60 people. That is not ADOS nationally. Our movement didn't start in Atlanta its nationally in cities across the country. There has been coverage of ADOS from the print cover of the New York Times, ABC and CNN. Marianne Williamson and Cornell attended our conference.
The source clearly says it this is just that single chapter remove this immediately. Lawson describes ADOS as a loosely formed confederation of people interested in reparations and political advocacy that has grown to about 60 in number in Atlanta.
I removed the line and they add it back. Please remove it permanently. It is inaccurate.
Truthsayer21 (talk) 01:19, 07 September 2020 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 20 March 2020
![]() | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please link the following categories: African-American society Ethnic groups in the United States History of civil rights in the United States People of African descent African-American culture ADOS MMXX (talk) 01:29, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- @ADOS MMXX: I've done this to the best of my ability, not all had articles although in one case I found a substitute. Doug Weller talk 10:18, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
Error in About Us
The entire section with Ann Coulter should not be on this page she has no contact with this group and made a tweet telling us to change our name to a person that is not a founder and you included it in our description. That is offensive at worst inaccurate at best. By what right is this woman on our page because she did a tweet. Please remove that section immediately. That is not a about page for Wikipedia. Why would someone’s random tweet to some one that is not not even a founder be on our about us is this a smear page?
- It's not your page, it's an article in an encyclopedia. Doug Weller talk 15:54, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
That’s the point it is not your page to put random ideas and selectively choose. Why is Ann Coulter in here like she is on a board for ADOS OR came to our conference. This is craziness that this is in an about us and everything that actually occurred is omitted. She sent a tweet to neither of the founders about another term and it was rejected by the founders. How is someone’s random tweet on the about us? That’s not the way you tell our story. All this while Marianne Williamson who was a Presidential candidate and came to our conference is omitted. WHAT IS THIS PAGE? There are several errors similar to this here.
- The IP is out of line, but I think it's a bit weird to have this discordant information about Ann Coulter in the lede, which is meant to summarize the contents of the article—Ann Coulter is not mentioned in the body of the article. It's jarring, and doesn't belong there. Carlstak (talk) 02:06, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Carlstak: yes, I think the issue here is how to use the Stockman source.[9] Doug Weller talk 14:26, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
Their skepticism concerning immigration has attracted criticism and the suggestion that they are dividing African Americans
"Critics had argued that some ADOS activist are xenophobic." What critics and do they have an agenda? ADOS have been called bots with no proof, please include this smear by MSNBC-Joe Reid in the article. It highlights ADOS is oddly attacked without any proof.
"Dividing African Americans" We are not a monolithic group, nor is any other ethnic group in America/U.S. This line implies a monolith is expected.
We are pro immigrations , but note a distinction is necessary to have correct data. Most current data place anyone Black in ONE group. Africans have 2 passports and often have duel citizenship. The Africans that were able to move to the U.S. are also distinct from poor Africans that are financially not able to move from county to country.
The are also financially better off than ADOS. When their data is lumped with ADOS data, it paints a FALSE picture.
They also have tribes and carry that tribal pride here in the U.S. ADOSJoy Mary Lee (talk) 03:39, 19 July 2020 (UTC) is affirming, we too are connected, but not to an African flag. The very people that are proud of their homeland/ national flag and heritage are upset we are now proud of ours.
Lastly, reparations is a LEGAL claim. With any legal claim a distinction must be made to identify the injured party. Some immigrant are upset with this. This envy is not our fault, and we hope they will support our legal claim, even though they are NOT a part of it. I support any redress or reparations of any African or or Caribbean nation.
Joy Mary Lee (talk) 03:39, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
Joy Mary Lee (talk) 03:39, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Joy Mary Lee: there's no way to question the source and we don't need to. The only issue is whether a source passed WP:RS criteria and is used in accordance with WP:NPOV criteria. Our articles are based on what reliable sources say about them, and your knowledge or mine can't be used. Doug Weller talk 14:28, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 22 July 2020
![]() | It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at American Descendants of Slavery. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)
This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".
The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |
After the weeks of discussion, I place this here for review after conversation with multiple editors around best practices and coming to an editing proposal that can work for multiple parties while maintaining the high standards of this web encyclopedia. I want to thank the Wikipedia editors for their input and patience.
Please change from:
American Descendants of Slavery (ADOS) is a lineage-focused political movement that seeks to advocate for people who are descendants of the enslaved Africans in America from its colonial period onward. It focuses on the difference between African Americans whose ancestors were slaves and those whose ancestors were not, calling for the descendants of slaves to be given priority over other African Americans and to have their own racial classification. They believe that the differences are enough to establish different ethnicities between the groups and that descendants of slaves are disadvantaged compared to other African Americans. Their skepticism concerning immigration has attracted criticism and the suggestion that they are dividing African Americans and targeting Democrats. One of its founders, Yvette Carnell, was a board member of "Progressives for Immigration Reform", described by the Southern Poverty Law Center as an anti-immigration group.[1]
to:
American Descendants of Slavery (ADOS) is a lineage-focused political movement that advocates for the specific justice claim held by the descendants of Africans enslaved in the United States from its colonial period to the present. According to their website, ADOS wants "...to shift the dialogue around the identity of what it is to be African American in an effort to move the discussion from melanin, and properly center the discussion around lineage.”[1] ADOS describes itself as both an identity and a political movement aimed at targeted policies to address injustices committed against its members, including the wealth gap between their group and other populations. Their agenda is detailed in their demand for reparations along with a "New Deal for Black America". ADOS asserts that the injustices committed against their group have never been sufficiently addressed. They assert that there have been three phases of injustice that afflict ADOS members: “…slavery, American apartheid (Jim Crow, and the combined effects of present-day discrimination and the ongoing depreciation of Black lives."[2] As a way to differentiate this specificity, they have suggested an addition to the U.S. Census that would add an ethnic classification for their members other than black. The ADOS movement has also faced criticism — not for its call for reparations, but for how it discusses immigration and black identity. Critics have argued that some ADOS activists are openly xenophobic and that the movement endorses an unnecessarily limited definition of “blackness,” dismissing the ways slavery and colonization have affected other groups in the African diaspora. For ADOS activists, though, the question is not about “blackness.” “This whole argument…is really ridiculous,” Yvette Carnell, a cofounder of the #ADOS movement, said in an interview (in February 2019). “We’re saying there is a difference in the justice demands for people who are descendants of slaves in this country and those who were enslaved (elsewhere).”[3]
MRHICK01 (talk) 17:53, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
Note: I've changed this to a COI edit request based on the statement made on your user page. You really should use the standard
{{Userbox COI}}
use{{edit request}}
to make any COI-based edit requests. Please see WP:COI for more detail. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 20:05, 23 July 2020 (UTC)- MRHICK01, Considering the length of the article, I don't think a lede of this size is appropriate. I would suggest that much of this be incorporated into the body, as the lede is meant to summarize the body of the article. Zoozaz1 (talk) 00:41, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
References
- ^ "#ADOS – American Descendants of Slavery". ADOS101.com. Retrieved 22 July 2020.
- ^ Darity, Jr., William A.; Mullen, A. Kirsten (2020). From here to equality : reparations for black Americans in the twenty-first century. The University of North Carolina Press. p. 5. ISBN 978-1-4696-5497-3.
- ^ Russ, Valerie. "It's not whether Kamala Harris is 'black enough,' critics say, but whether her policies will support native black Americans". inquirer.com.
Sorry,but giving the co-founder the opportunity to call the criticism "ridiculous" is not neutral, see WP:NPOV. Rsk6400 (talk) 08:33, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
In this section, am I allowed to amend my request with something acceptable to the editors around this matter of neutrality? MRHICK01 (talk) 13:49, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
- As I understand it, on a talk page everything is allowed, as long as you follow the rules stated at the top of this very page. I personally feel a bit overwhelmed by your suggestion of a complete new lede. That's why I only reacted after seeing that nobody else had answered to your last request for nearly two weeks. So I'd suggest looking at one problem after the other, maybe starting with the last sentence,
One of its founders, Yvette Carnell, was a board member of "Progressives for Immigration Reform", described by the Southern Poverty Law Center as an anti-immigration group.
I think that sentence is relevant for the reader, because for understanding politics it is important to know a group's (or person's) allies. --Rsk6400 (talk) 18:29, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Meaning of "African American"
@Writefactsonly: The online edition of the Oxford Dictionary gives this definition of an African American: "A black American". Our article African American explicitly calls Barack Obama the first "African American" president in the last sentence but one of the lede. --Rsk6400 (talk) 18:26, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
Even more of an NPOV mess now, eg no mention of attacks on Kamala Harris or other political controversies
Yesterday. "Similar tones could also be heard at the other end of the political spectrum: from voices who consider Harris' origins to be privileged and say that they do not share the discriminatory experiences of many African Americans. While Harris' father was writing his dissertation in the midst of the civil rights riot of the 1960s, "we were shot at with water cannons in the street," tweeted Yvette Carnell of the American Descendants of Slavery group, which campaigns for reparations for the descendants of slavery"[10] - an English media source also.[11] Also [12] and [13]/ Doug Weller talk 14:52, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
- Start-Class African diaspora articles
- Low-importance African diaspora articles
- WikiProject African diaspora articles
- Start-Class politics articles
- Low-importance politics articles
- WikiProject Politics articles
- Start-Class United States articles
- Low-importance United States articles
- Start-Class United States articles of Low-importance
- WikiProject United States articles
- Wikipedia semi-protected edit requests