Jump to content

Talk:Jessica Yaniv

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Nblund (talk | contribs) at 03:18, 8 October 2020 (→‎Gynecologist complaint: reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Her legal name is Jessica Simpson[1], and the lead should reflect that. My version may have been clumsy, but we should be clear of her current legal name. The current version positions one name in the same way we normally show somebody's birth name. Since we can't show her birth name (for obvious reasons) we need to show "Simpson" and "Yaniv" and make clear which is legal and which is widely used. Saying she is "known" as "Jessica Simpson" implies that it's just an alias she goes by or people choose to call her. It's her legal name. -Rob (talk) 23:02, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I apologize for missing this section. WP:BLPPRIVACY says it makes sense to bring up full names when they've been widely covered, but I don't really think this fits the bill based on the two sources that reference it. I don't think this is a huge issue, but it seems to add very little and runs a risk of needlessly publicizing information that the subject wants to keep private. Nblund talk 21:40, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

sources

There's an ample supply of reliable balanced sources. Let's not rely on Western Standard or similar sources that show a negative bias. -Rob (talk) 03:48, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Trans activist

Resolved

He is not a trans activst— Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.51.163.252 (talk • contribs) 13:22, September 14, 2020 (UTC)

Not big on reading, I guess. You don't even have to open the actual sources, the headlines alone confirm she is a trans activist. - SummerPhDv2.0 20:03, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

More sourcing problems

On a minor note, can we please use {{cite news}} to format citations appropriately, and include all relevant information on sources, and use archive urls to avoid link-rot.

More signficantly, there seems to be a move to use trash sources.

  • In this edit there is a Yahoo Australia News link that relies on a Daily Mirror story. I'm not too sure about the reliability of Yahoo News Australia, but, per Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, Daily Mail is clearly not reliable. Also, the story of the gynaecologist is all based on some Twitter postings. There's no source stating an actual official complaint was failed. I think it's best we don't mention every tweet by or about Yaniv.
  • In this edit there is a link to a Quillette article by Lindsay Shepherd. This is blatantly unreliable. Not only is Quillette listed as unreliable per Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, but the author, was involved in a deeply personal and hostile online feud, which included a ban (for a time) from Twitter. Both have written deeply hostile things about the other, and neither is a reliable source on the other.
  • The Post Millennial is also on the same list of unreliable sources. It just happens to also have Shepherd as a periodic writer as well.

All unreliable sources have to be removed. If there's no reliable source for a claim, it should be removed. There's ample coverage in reliable sources. --Rob (talk) 06:33, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for removing the threat from my talk page. Rather than you wikisplaining the article Thivierr, let's work through the refs one by one. Thank you. CatCafe (talk) 06:55, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All unreliable sources and BLP violations must be removed immediately, per relevant policy. The onus is on the person wishing to include something, to justify it. --Rob (talk) 06:58, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It us incumbent upon you to show good faith, which you have not on my talk page. There are reliable sources for all the text additions Trivierr. Will you allow the content to be returned if the RSs are included? CatCafe (talk) 07:04, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Provide reliable sources, per WP:RS, and ensure the content matches the sources, and there is not a problem. But, I think you'll find some stuff just isn't covered by reliable sources, or isn't covered in the same manner. ---Rob (talk) 07:11, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Good, thank you for now agreeing to act in good faith. The Star Observer is the premier Australian LGBTI publication, it is a RS, any probs?[2] CatCafe (talk) 07:14, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed the section referencing the complaint about the gynecologist, as it really appears WP:UNDUE for inclusion. I can't even find any indication that Yaniv ever actually pursued the complaint, so the entire amounts to Yaniv tweeting something and some other people tweeting back at her. I don't see how that could possibly warrant mention, much less a full subsection. Nblund talk 21:56, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

sourcing for harassment allegations

I'm having a tough time seeing how the level of detail in the Jessica_Yaniv#Alleged_online_harassment section could be justified by the extant sourcing. It doesn't appear to have garnered even a passing mention in high quality sources, and it seems like gossip that is not feasible to cover neutrally for the simple reason that neutral sources don't cover it. I've trimmed what seemed like excessive detail, but it could probably be removed all together. Nblund talk 21:31, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@CatCafe: If it wasn't clear here, I don't think the name of the accuser is the sole issue. Typically, Wikipedia has had a fairly high bar for inclusion when it comes to these kinds of allegations. Unless the standards have recently changed, I think this level of detail for something that is not widely covered is likely to be a BLP violation. Nblund talk 22:02, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your advice, but I think the section should stay, as there are 2 (if not more) reliable sources reporting on this topic. CatCafe (talk) 22:35, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What's the other reliable source for that specific claim? Nblund talk 22:37, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Look I really don't have time to debate your tangents. But I'm replying to your proposal to delete the section, and the section relies on 3 RS (they're in the article, and I don't have to republish them here for you). If you want these classified as non-RS then this is not the correct forum. Good bye. CatCafe (talk) 23:26, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm specifically talking about the Jessica_Yaniv#By_Yaniv section - the portion I removed comes from one source alone. You're not under any obligation to do anything, but if you intend to have a say in what the entry looks like, you're going to have to be willing to talk about it. "What other sources exist for this" is not a tangent, it's the basis of determining WP:DUE weight. Nblund talk 01:56, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Look honestly your asking me a question about something I never made and it's badgering. I said "there are 2 (if not more)" and then gave examples of 3 RS. Now you demand more? Please look for the additional RS yourself, rather than demanding others do your work for you. OK? Please go and learn how to search for Rel sources rather than duscuss with me. CatCafe (talk) 02:41, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I removed a sentence from that section. You restored that sentence here. You restored it, I'm asking you to justify it. If you can't justify it, then we should remove it. Nblund talk 03:02, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Deleting Reliable Sources

Can RS's not be deleted from the article. The same editors who are deleting them are then complaining about a lack of them. It's counterproductive and oversight is required. Thanks in advance. CatCafe (talk) 02:53, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Are you referencing this edit? I removed them because they were unused and causing an error. I see you've restored them inside a comment tag, which seems fine, but that doesn't have any bearing on the AfD. Nblund talk 03:09, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's got nothing to do with the AfD. It's got to do with editors whining that there's not enough reliable sources available when there is, or seemingly was, before they were deleted. Thank you for agreeing to desist from this. Please go out and find some more if you like, that would be helpful. CatCafe (talk) 03:53, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. I really don't understand your complaint here. Nblund talk 04:47, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No-one asked you to involve yourself in this thread. You don't need to take everything personally. CatCafe (talk) 04:50, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nblund, I specifically asked that RS's not be deleted, then you specifically went ahead and deleted the RSs I had added. You may edit if you may, but please cease your need to eliminate RS. I cannot work with you under such conditions. CatCafe (talk) 05:37, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As I explained in my edit summary, this source is not useable for a BLP. The other two sources were removed because they weren't actually being used in the article. I've restored the other two sources to the "unused sources" comment tag. But do you understand that nothing inside these tags is visible to readers? I don't think it causes any harm, but it's really not reasonable to expect other editors to conform to your idiosyncratic preference to keep unused sources there. If you really want to do this, you should really just do the legwork yourself. It's definitely not a valid reason for restoring material that violates BLP. Nblund talk 05:54, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If a source is very reliable, informative, and relevant; but not yet used as a source, then it should go under "Further reading". Hidden/commented-out text is useless clutter, that confuses future editors. However, I don't see anything here that qualifies for added "Further reading". Also, given the attempted use of "sydneycriminallawyers", it's worth noting that the default assumption of anything found online, is it's not usable. If a source is blacklisted as a perennial bad source, then it's definitely unusable. But, even if it hasn't yet been banned by Wikipedia, it may still be unusable. Some sources are good for certain things (like non-contentious facts), but not usable when there's a clear bias that makes reliability questionable. If you read an article, and it's overtly hostile (or promotional) of a person, that means you probably shouldn't use it. While there's an active debate on the sufficiency of sources, what doesn't help, is adding mediocre sources to an article that has good sources. All it does it drown the good with the bad. Nobody is impressed by a flood of junk. --Rob (talk) 23:55, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Titania McGrath

Seriously? Titania McGrath is a fictional character. They do not exist. There is a comedian who uses that name to mock people. If we did cite the book, we would name Andrew Doyle (comedian), not Titania McGrath as the author. But, being only a comedian, they are not a reliable source. Now, if a reliable sources mention the book by Doyle, then maybe that's worth mentioning. User:CatCafe, you added this based on an apparent belief this character is real? Then, you try adding it back, while admitting it's a parody, but still referring to Titania McGrath as a "satarist". McGrath is not a satarist. Doyle is a satarist. McGrath does not exist. This is why it's necessary to be cautious when adding sources. Please, only add reputable sources, and don't just add every random piece of garbage you find on the internet. This is seriously embarrassing to Wikipedia, to be taken in by such a well known jokester. Being fooled by bad sources is bad enough, but now we're using fictional sources? --Rob (talk) 06:44, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lighten up Thivierr. Maybe I'm not the idiot you subscribe me to be. You probably feel it's time to go running to BLP/N to dob me in and report my errors for editing in a WP:BOLD manner? Last time you got over excited and reverted a slab of coding errors I had fixed - counterproductive. The crime here is that I accidentally referred to a comedian by his pseudonym, and used a not so great ref. No-one was defamed, no-one was slandered - but you saw the need to write a short-story suggesting I am a fool as above. Please lighten up & Move on. CatCafe (talk) 07:55, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BOLD doesn't mean add everything you find on net for others to fix. BLPs require extra sensitivity. Using a pseudonym isn't a big deal per se. Many authors are known and referred by them interchangeably with their own name. However, in this case, the author made an intentional hoax intended to mock those that take him seriously. Your initial use of him indicated you were fully taken in by the hoax and suggested Wikipedia was too. A hoax that has long long long been known as such and doesn't really hide itself that much. A little like falling for an April fools Day gag from last year. --Rob (talk) 12:56, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@CatCafe: No one is calling you an idiot, but if you can't see the problem with using this source, then you need to take a step back from editing biographies and familiarize yourself with the WP:BLP guidelines. Competence is required, and so is being able to take constructive criticism. Nblund talk 14:42, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Book usage

I removed "DELETED: Big Tech's Battle to Erase the Trump Movement and Steal the Election" as this is not a source of facts, but is a source of commentary. A book of political opinion, should be used pretty much like we would use an opinion piece in a newspaper: state what the writers opinion is and attribute it to the writer in the body of the article. Even if a newspaper is a reliable source of facts, we still don't treat it's opinion pieces as sources of fact. Same goes with book publishers. This publisher may publish books that we can rely on for facts. This book isn't one. Murphy's twitter ban is a non-contentious fact, supported by factual reporting in the National Post. It doesn't need redundant citations. Whether Murphy *should* have been banned, and whether she aught to have said/done what she did, is a matter of opinion, and as opinion, if covered, should be done so with appropriate in-line attribution. This approach is already used in the article under the "Impact and reactions" section. --Rob (talk) 06:06, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to dispute the removal since you say it is redundant non-contentious information. However, major literary publishing houses assert fact checking to its books and this is a discussion of a fact; as opposed to whatever fact-checking, if any, a newspaper does to its editorials/columnists. Morbidthoughts (talk) 06:17, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yaniv's words in student newspaper

So, yet again, here is a trash source that's being used. It's a statement by "Yaniv" in a student newspaper. We don't even have to consider the reliability of the student newspaper, as we're talking about Yaniv's candidate statement, written in the first person. The subject of the bio is not a reliable source of facts about the subject of the bio, especially when those statements are self-promoting (as in, she was running for a position, and justifying why she should get it). --Rob (talk) 16:05, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I don't know what this adds. Even if attributed to Yaniv, it's probably undue since no secondary sources appear to have covered it.Nblund talk 18:20, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"The person's autobiography, own website, or a page about the person on an employer's or publisher's website, is an acceptable (although possibly incomplete) primary‡ source for information about what the person says about himself or herself. Such primary sources can normally be used for non-controversial facts about the person and for clearly attributed controversial statements." and "primary sources may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements that any educated person—with access to the source but without specialist knowledge—will be able to verify are directly supported by the source. This person does not have to be able to determine that the material in the article or in the primary source is true. The goal is only that the person could compare the primary source with the material in the Wikipedia article, and agree that the primary source actually, directly says just what the article says it does.". The source supports non-controversial facts about Yaniv. I have tweaked the text to clarify that this is a claim by Yaniv herself. McPhail (talk) 19:05, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
But what does it add that makes it encyclopedic and WP:DUE for inclusion? The fact that we're resorting to citing a student newspaper is probably good evidence that it's not actually important. Nblund talk 20:28, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, it is a trivial claim, based on a trashy source, with no guarantee that the person mentioned is Jessica Yaniv. I removed it. HouseOfChange (talk) 22:00, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the fact nobody independently wrote about it, shows how meaningless it is. Also, this isn't Yaniv's verified official web site. It's some text printed in a student election a decade ago. We don't know the statements aren't contentious. The statement says she was behind a significant action (removal from national organization), maybe she was, maybe she wasn't, maybe other candidates disputed that. I don't know, and I don't care. Mini bios of election candidates are one of the most useless sources of information there are. They are sheer puffery, that's printed without any fact checking. If we did cover this stuff, we'd need to qualify it with text like "According to Kwantlen Chronicle Yaniv claimed...", which is needless clutter for something so useless. Now, if a reliable publication (with fact checkers) actually reported on the student union leaving a national organization, and credited this person, then that might actually be noteworthy. --Rob (talk) 23:20, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Canadian News Wire isn't a source

Canadian News Wire is not a news outlet. They print press releases, in exchange for payment. Also, this doesn't say anything about Yaniv. It just lists her as a contact for further information, going to show how non-independent the source is. --Rob (talk) 23:29, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I say delete the references to it then. The one News Wire reference I saw is about ear buds put out by someone she worked for at some point and has nothing to do with her. So, 100% it should be deleted. Probably a lot of other stuff could be to. Not every mundane thing about her or trivial news mention she gets is notable or should be included, and there's a lot of cruft in the article. --Adamant1 (talk) 09:11, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Gynecologist complaint

This edit really seems WP:UNDUE and trivial. There's no indication that Yaniv actually filed a complaint, no follow up on the result, and apparently not enough interest among reliable sources for anyone to bother finding out any additional info. The entire story is based on a series of Tweets. What does this add? Nblund talk 15:57, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The material has reliable sources; WP:RS is satisfied. Whether you think there is "no follow up on the result" - there does not need to be any followup. This material is relevant and notable.Wisefroggy (talk) 18:02, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
And the material is 29 words long, which you think is WP:UNDUE. It is not WP:UNDUE by any reasonable interpretation.Wisefroggy (talk) 18:05, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Did Yaniv ever pursue the complaint? What was the result? Was her interpretation of discrimination law correct or incorrect? If we can't answer any of the basic questions about an event, it's useless for readers. Wikipedia summarizes accepted knowledge, it doesn't just include every random factoid about a person we can scrape together. Nblund talk 18:48, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I do not agree with Nblund's suggestion that we should undertake WP:OR. The text is fine as it is, is compact and not WP:UNDUE, and relevant to the section as per the sources. It was important enough to be covered in WP:RS and the LGBTQI press, who also said "Yaniv said the College of Physicians and Surgeons confirmed to her that the gynaecologists’ refusal is discrimination and against their code of ethics." CatCafe (talk) 20:13, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is a matter of one (deleted) tweet by Yaniv, plus editorializing about it, all of which happened in December 2019, much of the coverage focused on Gervais mocking Yaniv. Per Nblund above, it does not belong in the bio until/unless more events emerge from it making it relevant to the biography of JY. The WP:ONUS is on people wanting to add it to gain consensus for its inclusion. HouseOfChange (talk) 20:48, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
A google of the topic comes up with over 20 'news' items, so the topic has been extensively covered in the press. It is further supported, as Overington in The Aus also says: "She is not daunted, having since launched a human rights campaign against gynaecologists for refusing to accept her as a ­patient". CatCafe (talk) 20:50, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
So is it a "campaign" or did Yaniv actually lodge a complaint? This editorial doesn't provide any new factual information, and it further muddies the waters regarding what Yaniv actually did. I haven't suggested we cite original research and I'm not sure how you got that from what I said. Counting google hits (without regard to source quality or depth of coverage) is not an especially useful way to determine due weight or encyclopedic value.Nblund talk 21:12, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nubland, As with your previous complaints, you continue to demand additional WP:OR before content is included. We include what the WP:RS's say, not what editors think is important after additional WP:OR is explored. Considering that, I can no longer help you with your concerns as you can't stay on the original topic, and always want to explore WP:OR. You removed Wisefroggy's text claiming it was WP:UNDUE, and you have not been able to substantiate that. Good bye and have a nice day. CatCafe (talk)
Again: I really don't know why you think my comment has anything to do with WP:OR, but the fact that you can't even spell my name correctly suggests that you might just not be reading anything very closely. I'm not calling for inserting WP:OR in to the article. I'm noting that we don't have enough reliably sourced information to write encyclopedic content about this incident. As always: you're not obligated to participate in any discussion, but - as HouseofChange notes above - the WP:ONUS for achieving consensus rests with the people trying to restore contested content. Nblund talk 21:56, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Noblnd, "As always: you're not obligated to participate in any discussion" if you deteriorate into insults (i.e. over spelling). This is why any discussion with you is problematic, as I previously have asked you to stop the insults suggesting I am some sort of fool. I am asking you again please desist this. Best of luck with breaking down the content in the articles in order to analyse your WP:OR. "Good bye and have a nice day." CatCafe (talk) 22:06, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@CatCafe:, WP:OR involves *adding* (or sometimes altering) material. Removing all mention of something can not be "original research". You seem to think every single detail meeting a certain reliability standard must be included. Sourcing rules work one way only: Wikipedia coverage requires reliable sources; but reliable sources don't require Wikipedia coverage. Trump is a trillion times more notable, but we don't cover every tweet he writes, even though they're all heavily covered, and infinitely more important. Also, Yaniv is not a powerful or influential person. The mere fact they say something doesn't automatically mean anything. Please stop trying to add every single thing you find on the internet. --Rob (talk) 22:58, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Look Thivierr stop talking rubbish, and making misguided accusations. It's verging on bullying. I did not suggest conducting WP:OR, another editor wanted to explore this. I did not add the content in question, another editor added it and asked me to comment here. That's your problem, you throw around accusations here on talk without researching what you're talking about. Next time you want to accuse me of something, you better make sure it's accurate and based on facts. Good bye and have a nice day. CatCafe (talk) 23:08, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Rob you seem to think this material is too trivial to be included (you said: "Please stop trying to add every single thing you find on the internet"). The gynaecology thing is entirely relevant and notable. Yaniv is notable almost entirely because of discrimination claims against bikini waxers. Now Yaniv is claming same against a gynaecologist. Totally relevant. To not include this material, IMO, is a disservice to wikipedia community.Wisefroggy (talk) 03:17, 8 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:Nblund said "Was her interpretation of discrimination law correct or incorrect?". This is not for us to decide. We are not judges. You also said: "Did Yaniv ever pursue the complaint? What was the result?". This is similarly irrelevant. Our job is to simply, like you said, "summarize accepted knowledge". Which is what we are doing. Unfortunately, you keep deleting it.Wisefroggy (talk) 03:08, 8 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not soliciting editors' personal opinions on those issues. I'm pointing out that reliable sources don't answer any of the questions that a reader might ask in response to reading this information. Those kinds of relevance/significance questions are what separates news from encyclopedic material. "Summarizing" means that we sometimes leave out verifiable information if it is not important to the topic. As it stands, this is a non-sequitur that is more likely to perplex people than enlighten them. Nblund talk 03:18, 8 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jessica_Yaniv&oldid=982433228"