User talk:Gitz6666

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Arrivederci altrove

Caro @Pequod76: ti rispondo qui, anziché sulla tua talk, perché mi sono accorto che questa risposta, anche se è per te, non è solo per te. Preferisco quindi questo spazio.
Su una cosa voglio rassicurarti subito. Non ho rinunciato affatto alla “battaglia di principio” più importante, scrivere l'enciclopedia. Semplicemente, penso di poterla portare avanti altrove, in modo più proficuo e meno stressante: qui su en.wiki, spero, e in altri luoghi di ricerca. La mia risposta a Gianfranco è stata ben ponderata, era pronta da tempo e sono fiducioso che mi porterà più felicità e lavoro produttivo. L'adesione al progetto quindi non è cessata, si è solo trasferita di sede.
La verità è che collaborare con voi è troppo faticoso, almeno per me. Non mi riferisco a te personalmente: tu sei prezioso, Pequod, sai quanto ti stimo. E come per te, ho stima per molti altri: Frognall, Carmela Angela, LarManLor, Giannidice, Cloj, Mαρκος, Parma1983, Er Cicero, WalrusMichele, Etienne, Sakretsu, Camelia.boban e chissà quanti ne dimentico (ho ovviamente perso le mie pagine di discussione). Posso collaborare benissimo anche con persone con cui sono spesso in disaccordo, come Kirk39, TrinacrianGolem o Tommasucci. Persino Ignis ho molto rivalutato col tempo: penso che la colpa di quel che è successo tra noi sia soprattutto nella patologica insufficienza dei meccanismi di soluzione dei conflitti su it.wiki. E non mi riferisco alla mancanza dell'ArbCom, ma al fatto che gli admin di regola si astengono, se possibile, dalle discussioni tra un collega e un utente sconosciuto, sospetto "problematico", e quando partecipano evitano di prendere apertamente posizione a favore di quest'ultimo. Altro che ArbCom, su it.wiki non ci sono nemmeno la mediazione e la RdP! Come possono funzionare bene le cose così?
Ho fatto questo elenco (incompleto) di utenti perché mi dispiace non averli potuti salutare e in alcuni casi nemmeno conoscere, cioè non abbiamo quasi interagito. Mi piacerebbe trovare un modo per far loro arrivare il mio congedo e ringraziamento (puoi aiutarmi in questo?). Avete utenti preziosi su it.wiki ma l’ambiente – soprattutto l’adminship e alcune utenze storiche – è spesso inospitale. Potrei sbagliare su questo, ma sono convinto che la ragione sia che, non essendovi mai dati delle procedure, non siete nemmeno riusciti a sviluppare una cultura interna della fairness: nessun tipo di equanimità e distacco. In mancanza di procedure, qualsiasi tipo di autorità – anche quella che si basa sul prestigio, sull’esperienza e dedizione al progetto – prima o poi è condannata ad essere “cricca”, cioè potere arbitrario personale. Lo è agli occhi degli outsider, che facilmente si sentono umiliati e trattati ingiustamente, e lo è nei fatti.
L’ultimo episodio non voglio commentarlo, tanto è chiaro e lampante. Dopo quel che è successo su quella pagina, che è sotto gli occhi di tutti, il cartellino giallo me lo becco io? Anzi, due cartellini gialli, se consideriamo la vicenda del Manuale di stile. Come è possibile giustificare quel genere di aggressioni? Rispondimi Pequod, per favore: ti sembrano conformi alle linee-guida del progetto o sono abusi? Se pensi che quei cartellini gialli e tutta la dinamica che li ha prodotti siano giustificabili, allora ha pienamente ragione Gianfranco: incompatibilità con il Progetto (non però violazione irredimibile della WikiQuette, quella no: io sono sempre stato testardo, ma educato e rispettoso con tutti).
Comunque in quell’ambiente non posso lavorare sereno, e non riesco a pensare una ragione per restare. Da tempo le persone che mi vogliono bene si stupiscono e mi chiedono chi me lo faccia fare: perché accettare quelle dinamiche degradanti, avendo del resto io altre cose importanti di cui occuparmi (due figlie, una moglie e un lavoro)? Alla fine a questa domanda non sono più riuscito a trovare una risposta sensata, di qui la decisione di andarmene. Ma, ti ripeto, non ho nessuna intenzione di rinunciare alla “battaglia”: il mio andarmene è un “arrivederci altrove”. Ti auguro buon tutto, spero che prima o poi riusciate a risolvere i problemi che vi travagliano e che, temo, non coincidono con la mia contribuzione (quella ve la siete tolta), problemi che potrebbero tormentare altri utenti in futuro come lo hanno fatto in passato. Ma se tu avessi bisogno di qualcosa, wikipidianamente parlando, mi trovi qui. Non ho nessun rancore verso di te e spero che ci potremo incontrare ancora.
P.S. e fate qualcosa per la storia dei concetti, su! Il mio STUB fa schifo e non è pubblicabile, IMHO, ma il tema merita il lavoro di qualcuno, prima o poi. --Gitz (talk) (contribs) 09:47, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Ti ringrazio per la tua risposta. Mi spiace che tu abbia vissuto così male il tuo tempo su it.wiki. sono lontano dal pensare che gli amministratori di it.wiki siano perfetti o infallibili. Solo ritengo che una convivenza poteva essere cercata e trovata, sviluppando una fiducia reciproca. Ora non posso dilungarmi. Intanto un caro saluto. Pequod76 (talk-ita.esp.eng) 10:35, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

@Pequod76 Volevo chiederti: ci sarebbe modo di avere (ovviamente via email) un copia-e-incolla della mia user page su it.wiki? Stupidamente non ho pensato di farla, anche se Gianfranco mi ha lasciato il tempo, credo proprio per questa ragione (o forse per recuperare la sandbox). Come sai, usavo la mia user page come "diario di viaggio", con appunti sulle cose che via via facevo o su cui intervenivo. Ho una pessima memoria e devo usare supporti esterni. Sarebbe possibile riaverla, ad uso di archivio personale? Gitz (talk) (contribs) 11:29, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Mi dispiace molto, davero molto per quello che è successo. E mi fa ritornare in mente un altro utente prezioso che abbiamo perso, come Xinstalker. Mi sono permessa di inserire i link alle persone che dicevi che avresti voluto salutare (in questo modo arrivano a loro le notifiche), ti ringrazio per la stima, la stessa che ho nei tuoi confronti. Trovi la tua pagina utente qui, così te la puoi salvare. Un abbraccio, ci vediamo in giro, non ti perderò di vista, stai certo. --Camelia (talk) 20:31, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Ciao Gitz, volevo solo dirti che mi dispiace per quanto successo : quando un utente vive male la sua contribuzione all'enciclopedia, tanto da pensare di non poter cercare e raggiungere una convivenza e che andarsene sia la scelta migliore, sicuramente qualcosa non ha funzionato. E ogni utente che se ne va è una perdita per it.wiki. Spero che ti sentirai più a tuo agio nel continuare a contribuire qui. Un saluto! --Postcrosser (talk) 23:02, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Cara @ Postcrosser, grazie. Ti confesso una cosa: in una prima stesura del messaggio qui sopra, ti avevo indicata tra le utenze che volevo ringraziare e salutare. Poi ho tolto il nome perché ho pensato che mi avresti considerato pazzo: a parte una volta, in cui mi hai dato un’indicazione per la questione degli interlink di Sofistica (se non sbaglio), non abbiamo mai avuto occasione di collaborare. Ma io “da lontano” ho apprezzato il tuo stile (senza contare che sei genovese come me) e quindi questo tuo messaggio mi fa piacere – grazie. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 00:38, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Ti ringrazio @Camelia.boban per la pagina utente! Mi hai consentito di ritrovare anche le pagine di discussione (non sapevo che fosse possibile) e quindi le tracce di alcune utenze che avevo dimenticato nei ringraziamenti: Dapifer e Bologai, di cui ho molta stima, Gambo7, Threecharlie, Bultro e Lorenzo Longo, che sono stati utili e gentili, Popop, con cui ho potuto interagire in modo civile anche quando in disaccordo, e soprattutto la cara Geoide, che mi aveva dato qualche consiglio tempo fa, e le cui vecchie conversazioni ho potuto leggere per iniziare a conoscere il modo wikipediano. Che peccato che si sia allontanata dal progetto – anche lei, temo, amareggiata. Quanto al confronto che fai tra me e Xinstalker, è ovviamente sbagliato e troppo generoso: lui ha contribuito alla vita e ai contenuti di it.wiki 100 volte più di me, nessun paragone è possibile. Ma il confronto è calzante in questo: l’UP con la quale è stato infinitato è il segnale di un problema. Mi aveva colpito e, assieme ad altri materiali letti nel tempo e alle mie esperienze personali, aveva contribuito a formare la mia cattiva opinione delle modalità di soluzione dei conflitti di it.wiki. Leggendo quell’UP una cosa è chiara come il sole: una decisone presa in quel modo non è tale da poter essere accettata come legittima da chi non ne condiva già il contenuto. Ma le procedure non servono (solo) a prendere meno decisioni sbagliate, servono anche a far accettare le decisioni (giuste o sbagliate che siano) a chi non le condivide nel merito. Le cose non possono funzionare così e da questo punto di vista, e solo da questo, il confronto tra me e Xinstalker, tra i miei due cartellini gialli e la sua UP, è convincente. Ma soprattutto, cara Camelia, grazie di cuore per il tuo lavoro su it.wiki, di cui ho capito bene l’importanza per molte/i. La tua stima mi onora. Un abbraccio, Gitz (talk) (contribs) 00:44, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Messaggio per te

Ciao Gitz6666, non ho pratica di questa wiki, ma ti voglio esprimere la mia vicinanza e il rammarico di aver ricevuto la segnalazione della discussione sull'arbitrato troppo tardi. Io non credo di contare gran che in it.wiki, ma il tuo lavoro sul Protestantesimo ha fatto nascere in me la speranza che si potesse collaborare, tu su quel versante, io su quello cattolico. Ti stimo per la caratura delle tue capacità e per aver sognato una realtà più concreta, umana, tollerante. Ti abbraccio e mi auguro che si facciano avanti anche altri: grazie di tutto. --AmaliaMM (talk) 17:25, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

@AmaliaMM Ti ringrazio per il messaggio affettuoso. Ho apprezzato le nostre discussioni e soprattutto la qualità eccellente del tuo lavoro: it.wiki è davvero fortunata ad averti. Mi rammarico che là non sarà più possibile cooperare, ma ogni tanto verrò a vedere come procede il vostro lavoro (silenziosamente - ca va sans dire). Se in futuro avrai bisogno della mia cooperazione wikipediana, mi trovi qui e sarò sempre disponibile per te! Un caro saluto, Gitz (talk) (contribs) 18:17, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Hai anche la stima di un atea, ho apprezzato molto i tuoi commenti sulle ultime voci sulle quali ha lavorato @LorManLor: e che sono state poi dichiarate di qualità. La misura con le queli lo hai fatto, l'approfondimento e la citazione colta. A presto 🤗. --Camelia (talk) 20:35, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

In realtà @AmaliaMM, @Camelia.boban, @LorManLor, anch’io sono ateo come Camelia. Sono finito a occuparmi di Lutero e di luterani su it.wiki quasi per puro caso, perché mi interessa l’età moderna e la costruzione dello stato. Di nuovo grazie per tutto, un abbraccio e buon lavoro su it.wiki! Gitz (talk) (contribs) 00:56, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Ciao Gitz, sono molto molto dispiaciuta per quello che è successo, sia dal punto di vista umano che per la perdita per it.wiki della collaborazione di un utente così prezioso come te, ritengo sia uno spreco terribile che doveva essere evitato in tutti i modi. Grazie per la tua competenza, gentilezza, e anche sì, testardaggine nel sostenere il tuo punto di vista, che ritengo legittimo e motivato. Spero possiamo incrociarci ancora, auguri per tutto, un fortissimo abbraccio.LorManLor (talk) 12:26, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Grazie @LorManLor per il messaggio gentile e per le tre belle voci di cui ho potuto discutere con te. Complimenti per il bel lavoro e per i riconoscimenti meritatissimi! Un abbraccio, Gitz (talk) (contribs) 12:53, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Mi unisco anche io, dato che ora è toccato a me un blocco che trovo eccessivo.--Potenza2021 (talk) 11:23, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Tre mesi di blocco per aver fatto gli auguri di buona Pasqua? Mi spiace, @Potenza2021, non ti amareggiare e lasciali perdere. --Gitz (talk) (contribs) 12:05, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Ti ringrazio. Un saluto anche ad AmaliaMM, qui sopra di me, sperando porti avanti il suo lavoro che avevo già notato in molte occasioni.--Potenza2021 (talk) 12:08, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Caro @Potenza2021, toglimi una curiosità. Che cosa avevi scritto di così intollerabile nella pagina "Controversie legate a Wikipedia" poco prima di essere bloccato per 3 mesi per aver fatto gli auguri di Pasqua? Mi riferisco alla "Modifica decisamente fuori luogo", che è stata addirittura oscurata. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:21, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Mi spiace...

... di essermi accorto di quanto stava accadendo quando ormai la frittata era fatta. Forse (e sottolineo forse!) avrei potuto provare a darti qualche umile consiglio su come porti in certi frangenti, ossia astenersi dal rimbeccare a caldo, contare fino a mille e magari cambiare pagina e passare a occuparsi d'altro. In parte scherzo, e in parte no. Normale che ci siano vedute diverse tra gli utenti di una wiki, come pure tra wiki diverse. Se in tante wiki l'arbitrato è già una realtà, questo non significa che debba essere presente anche su it.wiki. Forse, banalmente, i tempi non sono maturi, inutile incaponirsi per accelerarli, ammesso pure che un giorno ci arriveremo, inutile un muro contro muro che ha spesso conseguenze spiacevoli, molto spiacevoli. Ci sono cose che io non condivido, ma SE l'obiettivo primario è collaborare al Progetto, tutto il resto deve passare in secondo piano, accettiamo serenamente anche le regole che meno ci piacciono e tiremm innanz. Pensa che giusto ieri sera t'avevo mandato un ping per Caravaggio, sperando così di risolvere un aspetto che avevi segnalato, e quando Tommasucci mi ha fatto notare quello che era successo sono rimasto senza parole. Ti esprimo il mio sincero apprezzamento per come ti ho visto operare nella rubrica e ti saluto cordialmente. --Er Cicero (talk) 09:18, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

P.S.: peccato, davvero peccato per come è andata, ma lo sbrocco è stato imperdonabile.

Caro @Er Cicero:, grazie per il messaggio. Non dubito che tu abbia ragione: in molte occasioni avrei potuto evitare di replicare. Si è trattato di botta e risposta in cui a replicare eravamo in due, e credo che i miei toni fossero meno aggressivi e inappropriati di quelli del mio interlocutore, ma è certo che SE avessi avuto una più forte spinta a rimanere su it.wiki, mi sarei dovuto comportare diversamente. E anche sull'arbitrato è probabile che tu abbia ragione. Più che proporre una soluzione determinata (l'arbitrato), forse non utile né attuabile, io intendevo richiamare l'attenzione su un problema secondo me reale; ma chissà che certi comportamenti prevaricatori, contrari alle linee guida, non possano essere affrontati senza bisogno di nuove regole, con la collaborazione di tutti, prima di "escalare" in conflitti distruttivi, che fanno male a tutti. Unica cosa, non capisco a che cosa ti riferisci con lo sbrocco è stato imperdonabile; se ti riferisci alla mia risposta a Gianfranco, forse è stata imperdonabile ma - come spiegavo qui sopra a Pequod - ti assicuro che non è stata uno sbrocco. A parte questo, sono felice di potermi congratulare con te per l'ottimo lavoro che ti ho visto fare in questi mesi nelle procedure di qualità. Non è un lavoro facile e si regge in gran parte sulle tue spalle. Complimenti! --Gitz (talk) (contribs) 09:48, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Beh, secondo me "non mi interessa collaborare con dei prepotenti (o meglio, sotto il dominio dei prepotenti,...)" te lo potevi risparmiare, così come la chiosa ironica "Buon divertimento nel piccolo mondo virtuale che vi siete inventati, spero che siate contenti del vostro lavoro". E' stato un modo per chiedere tu stesso di chiudere la tua esperienza su it.wiki (almeno a me così pare). E non posso che rammaricarmene. Buon tutto. --Er Cicero (talk) 10:13, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

In effetti ammetto che avrei voluto correggere quel messaggio in questo modo: "piccolo/grande mondo virtuale" (perché è una piccola comunità, è vero, ma si affaccia su un grande mondo ed è impegnata in un lavoro grande) e "vi auguro di essere soddisfatti del vostro lavoro" (anziché "spero che siate contenti", che è sarcastico, mentre l'augurio può essere sincero). Avrei invece lasciato la parte sui "prepotenti" perché, al di là delle buone intenzioni dei singoli, la credo vera. Ho provato a correggere il testo in questo modo, ma era già troppo tardi - per quel che vale, lo faccio ora. Grazie di nuovo e saluti, Gitz (talk) (contribs) 10:37, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

scusami, avevo dimenticato di pingarti @Er Cicero Gitz (talk) (contribs) 11:55, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Hospes tantum nequeo Franca decisa reprehendere ac nolo, sed tu, ὦ νεῖκος ἄριστε Gitz, ignosces mihi. --Frognall (talk) 21:00, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

@Frognall, Touché. Ti risponderei, per continuare il gioco, κράτος δ᾽ ὅτῳ κράτος μέλει παραβατὸν οὐδαμᾷ πέλει: σὲ δ᾽ αὐτόγνωτος ὤλεσ᾽ ὀργά. Guarda però che io sono persona mitissima, solo con poca attitudine a farmi maltrattare per nessuna ragione. Non sono un attaccabrighe, ma la massima a cui cerco di attenermi sempre è: se un lavoro non dà gioia, tientene lontano. Per il resto, come ho detto a Pequod, "collige quae superaverunt fragmenta ne pereant". Lui però nemmeno su questo si è mostrato molto sollecito… cioè non si è voluto far rifilare la patacca! Vedi tu. Un caro saluto, Gitz (talk) (contribs) 00:28, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Traduco, in caso ci fosse un amico che ci legge: "il potere, per chi ha caro il potere, non ammette trasgressione. La tua ira, che decide da sé, ti ha perduta" (Antigone) e "Raccogli le briciole avanzate, perché niente si perda" (da Giovanni 6:12). Gitz (talk) (contribs) 00:34, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Elizabeth Stanhope, Countess of Chesterfield

Good day Gitz6666. Thank you very much for your attention to the article Elizabeth Stanhope, Countess of Chesterfield. Few editors seem to add citations and your contribution is therefore especially precious and welcome. Unluckily, you seem to have the wrong lady. The description of a beautiful lady on page 141, which you cite, is that of Miss Hamilton. Lady Chesterfield is described on p 167. Besides, you cite the book as {{Cite book|last=Hamilton|first=Anthony|url=https://archive.org/details/memoirscountgram00hamimiss/page/n175/mode/2up|title=Memoirs of Count Grammont|publisher=E.L. Carey & A. Hart|year=1836|location=Philadelphia|pages=141|author-link=Antoine Hamilton}} I do not find a publication date on this edition and the title page indicates that the publisher is David McKay and not E.L. Carey & A. Hart as you say. Where did you get the information from? I edited the article and corrected the page citing from the Gebbie edition of 1888, which is better documented but identical for the rest. How did you get to Elizabeth Stanhope, Countess of Chesterfield? Do you have a special interest in her or in Antoine Hamilton and his book? Best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 15:59, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Hugo Krabbe has been accepted

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Re:peggio della politica

Thanks! I replied to you by e-mail. --Conviene (talk) 19:11, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Commenting about other users on article talk pages

Please keep in mind that article talk pages exist only for discussing improvement of the corresponding page. Your comments on my talk page were fine, even if poorly substantiated, but that was not. My very best wishes (talk) 17:34, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for removing your comment. But you constantly accuse me of bias. Yes, I certainly have personal views about it (everyone has). But I am trying to follow all rules including NPOV in main space. For example, would not you agree with this? My very best wishes (talk) 23:06, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Honestly I thought you might be biased, but even if it were so, that wouldn't be a problem. As you rightly say, we all have views. It's impossible to establish who, if any, is "truly neutral" here. The only way of achieving a certain acceptable degree of neutrality is through discussion and consensus. I objected to having all those poorly sourced (even posts on telegram!) "attacks on civilians" that do not qualify as war crimes, and I'll try to make the case for splitting the article; but I haven't started to remove them from the article, because it's only my view, maybe people from Ukraine or elsewhere are sending those contents to us, we should be respectful and take time and care. With regard to the criterion for the lead you ask me about: to me it looks overly complicated. The lead should change and will change but as a starting point, it seems to me that it should briefly announce the various areas touched upon in the article, as a sort of summary for the reader. Honestly, if one reads the lead now, it is clear that the Russian army are behaving horribly, and I don’t think we are underplaying their responsibility. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:30, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

I did watch YouTube records mentioned here with great interest. Obviously, these Russian pilots (those who bombed children in Ukrainian cities) and others were under a psychological pressure, and I am not sure they apologized sincerely to Ukrainian people. So, it did look to me as a doubtful excercize, unless that was needed to improve the spirits of Ukrainian people and reveal a few interesting details about these pilots being misinformed by their commanders. Still, I can not compare that "torture" (certainly, these pilots felt ashamed, exactly as they should be) with the death, incapacitation and injury of peaceful people they have bombed. These pilots should be tried for their war crimes if you ask me. But in terms of WP coverage, I think my comment [1] explains it. My very best wishes (talk) 00:57, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree with you: the videos of the Russian PoW calling their mum, crying and expressing regret, etc., do not amount to torture. "Abuse" is a reasonable word, I guess, or maybe "exploiting for propaganda purposes". However, deliberatly shooting 3 PoWs in the legs and let them bleeding is torture, if that's what's happened. By the way, I've just read this in the report by Bogner: "Since the invasion by the Russian Federation, people believed to be thieves, bootleggers, pro-Russian supporters or curfew violators have been beaten in territory controlled by the Government of Ukraine. We have received credible allegations of more than 40 such cases of ill-treatment by police officers, volunteer defence force members and others". I think you'll agree: this doesn't qualify as war crime, or at least RS doesn't say so explicitly, so let's leave it out. With regard to the lead, I personally have nothing against you or anyone else adding text to it - now is too poor - provided that we keep it fairly balanced and not emphatic or in any way apologetic. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 01:17, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Only 40 cases of ill-treatment by police officers? I am sure there are many more such cases in the USA. As about Russia, the entire police force works for the Mafia state. My very best wishes (talk) 01:33, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

I am afraid you're right! Gitz (talk) (contribs) 01:41, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Do not remove other people's comments

as you did [2] here. That's a pretty quick way to earn yourself a block. Volunteer Marek 01:04, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm afraid you'll get blocked if you keep on disrupting the talk in this way. It's not a place for venting anger. We discuss on the contents there, and you're making a mess out of it. Plus that OP is a personal attack against a fellow editor, User:Dunutubble (For fuck's sake, this also restores the idiotic notion that ... Gimme a break. There's absolutely no source for such a claim (probably because it's patently ridiculous). The given source certainly doesn't say anything so stupid. But it's also frankly offensive ... I am very tempted to report this fairly transparent violation...'). It's unacceptable. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 01:14, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

That is not a personal attack. The comment discusses the content not a person. I am not "venting anger". Now THAT is discussing a person not content, so THAT could qualify as a personal attack. Volunteer Marek

Regardless, it's not YOUR job to police the talk page and remove other people's comments. See WP:TALK Volunteer Marek 01:29, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

@Volunteer Marek With regard to the DS alert here below, note that it says "To opt out of receiving messages like this one, place {{Ds/aware}} on your user talk page and specify in the template the topic areas that you would like to opt out of alerts about". I have placed that template on my talk page, so you should avoid doing this. Don't you see that the way you behave is disruptive? I have other staff to do here and you are wasting my time, and other editors' time, for no reason. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 01:35, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Talk typo?

I think you may have meant I will open a thread... in your recent comment at Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine#PossibleTypo but it currently says something quite different. --N8_wilson 01:37, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Infobox

Ciao, perdonami, ma qui non abbiamo le categorie automatiche dei template sinottici?--Potenza2021 (talk) 17:02, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Ciao @Potenza2021, mi hai colto in castagna! Ti confesso che a leggere "categorie automatiche dei template sinottici" sono rimasto basito: per me è aramaico, non ho idea di che cosa tu stia parlando. Allora mi sono messo a studiare e posso dirti questo:

1. Alla tua domanda non so rispondere.

2. Questa è la linea guida del manuale di stile sulle infoboxes (template sinottici): Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Infoboxes, questa è la linea guida sulla categorizzazione: Wikipedia:Categorization, questa è la pagina di aiuto sulle categorie: Help:Category, questo è un "saggio" su quando non fare un infobox perché è inutile: Wikipedia:Disinfoboxes (su it.wiki non esistono i saggi; si tratta di opinioni e consigli non vincolanti, spesso confutati da altri saggi di segno contrario, come questo "inclusionista" sugli infoboxes, Wikipedia:Disinfoboxes can be useful),.

3. Qui trovi una pagina di aiuto molto generale su come iniziare a collaborare con en.wiki: Help:Getting started e qui trovi una pagina di aiuto su come fare domande, richieste di informazioni e di aiuto, ecc.: Wikipedia:Questions. Come vedi, sulla destra c'è "Personal help on your talk page": formuli una domanda e un editor ti risponde sulla tua pagina discussioni utente (user talk page).

P.S. Su en.wiki puoi cancellare tutto quello che vuoi dalla tua talk page, quindi se la tua domanda è sbagliata o la risposta non è utile, la puoi cancellare tranquillamente.

Ciao, Gitz (talk) (contribs) 22:24, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Warcrimes page

thanks for taking the time to prepare the post on the Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine page. Lets see if we get any other Editors participating. Like you I am starting to think their are better things to do in my life than endless arguements over these issues. Ilenart626 (talk) 21:48, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

@Ilenart626 thank you for the good work. I think I'm going to take a break from that article, as I'm disappointed by the lack of support from other editors. I hate seeing war crimes discourse being hijacked for petty political goals: if there are more war crimes against my party, that means that I'm (on the side of) the True Victim, which in turn means that... we're going to win the war? NATO will enter the war and war crimes will cease? Russian people will be ashamed and they'll ask their soldiers to behave nicely? I don't even understand the point of playing this ridiculous game of POV pushing on an article as that one, it shows disrespect for the real victims and it's utterly useless. Plus, I resent the way Anonimu was provoked and excluded: they brought it upon themselves, but it wasn't fair and it caused damage to our work. Or maybe what's happening is not WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:DISRUPTIVE and what I perceive as fair balance is out of touch with the prevailing views in the community. Either way it' better if I take a break and move to other projects. But thank you again for the nice work, I enjoyed collaborating with you. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 22:47, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Outstanding article

Hi, I'm GizzyCatBella. I came across an article Hugo Krabbe you created, and I've read it with great interest. I believe this is an excellent article, well sourced, flawlessly formatted, immaculate. Thank you very much. - GizzyCatBella🍁 10:35, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much @GizzyCatBella for your kind message! This truly means a lot to me. I have spent a good deal of time on that article, I hadn't received any feedback so far and I was a bit disappointed about that. I had also asked a peer review but none has answered my call and the review is still deserted: Wikipedia:Peer_review#Hugo_Krabbe and Wikipedia:Peer_review/Hugo_Krabbe/archive1. You cheered my up! Thank you. Any help in improving the article (starting from the quality of the English, which is not my mother tongue) is more than welcome. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 15:07, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

May 2022

Hello! Welcome to Wikipedia, and thank you for your contributions. At least one of your edits, while it may have been in good faith, was difficult to distinguish from vandalism. To help other editors understand the reason for the changes, you can use an edit summary for your contributions. You can also take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Shadybabs (talk) 13:38, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

What a coincidence, I have just written to you. Which edit are you referring to? I see that you undid my edit here [3] with the surprising object "misleading edit summary". My summary was exceptionally detailed! I had literally described each and every changed I had made: "Added sources (Guardian + Le Monde), reference to "torture" (which cannot be disputed), reference to the results of the investigations by Le Monde and others + fixed mistake in the spelling of the village where this happened". If you don't agree, you should at least explain why, and that edit summary of yours unfortunately doesn't help. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 13:49, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

So basically @Shadybabs if you don't explain why my (detailed and thorough) edit summary is "misleading", one is left with no reason at all for your revert. You should either write: "misleading edit summary: POWs had not been tortured" (and I could open a discussion on this), or "misleading edit summary: Le Monde has been misrepresented" (and I could open a discussion), or "it happened in Malaya Rohan, not in Mala Rohan" (again, we could discuss about that). But if you just say "misleading summary", what should we be discussing about? Gitz (talk) (contribs) 14:05, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

You made subsection name changes and removed content without indicating such in the summary. Shadybabs (talk) 14:08, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

So, first of all I see that you are now admitting that your summary "misleading edit summary" [4] is indeed misleading. The edit you reverted had a good summary. So I suggest you self-revert that edit of yours. You can undo my edit but you should explain your reason.

Secondly, as you can see, I indicated everything in the summary [5]: "There's no reason for believing that both sources are about same issue: one refers to Borodyanka, the other took place in Kharkiv. The intercepted conversation with sadistic mum fails WP:V, heading must be compliant with MOS:HEAD. See talk and don't restore until consensus is reached". So what are you talking about? "heading must be compliant with MOS:HEAD" obviously refers to a change in the heading, don't you think so? Plus I had already explained everything on the talk page (that you desert) so this is really ludicrous. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 14:19, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

@Shadybabs I was trying to make sense of what happened and I noticed that in fact this edit of mine also changed the heading plus removed some contents. After all, your "misleading edit summary" was not... entirely misleading! I did it inadvertently (probably I thought I had already published those early changes). I apologise for that.

However, please note the following:

- A discussion has been going on on the talk page since the 18 May. I pinged you but you didn't join.

- In that discussion 4 editors apart from myself expressed their views, and at 10:00, 20 May 2022 I made a proposition which perhaps might have enjoyed a consensus, here; I then modified the article accordingly and explained everything in the summary: [6].

- Obviously if you don't agree you can revert, but then please explain your reasons by joining the discussion. These reverts are not helpful if the goal is to reach a consensus: [7] [8].

I think we can't reach a consensus through editing here and we should avoid using edit summaries to carry on debates over contents (WP:REVTALK); we should rather use the talk page.

Anyway, sorry again about my sloppy summary. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:51, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

I reverted you

I might have let it stand if you had allowed me to disagree with M. Bitton, as he did quickly move to personal attacks, but as it is, you were wrong to not allow me to answer him. I mean, who he?

Meanwhile, I did at one point split your comment and tried to fix that; possibly we overwrote each other, and I see you may have done something about this in the same edit. For the record, I have no objection to you moving the second part of your comment above my reply if this is still an issue after my revert. Elinruby (talk) 17:31, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

thanks for the message, my comment and your replies to me as they are now are OK. With regard to the template:hidden, I had the impression that that discussion between you and M.Bitton was off topic and made it more difficult for others to join the discussion. If you want that discussion back to full visibility, I've nothing to object but let me suggest you to disengage: clearly there's a history of hostility between you two, and in these cases leaving a couple of days to "cool down" is always advisable. By the way, as a third uninvolved party let me tell you that you were the first one to escalate ("I've explained to you a few times now that other languages exist and see no reason to punish my carpals to go through this with you again"). Maybe you've been a bit too harsh without intending it? In that case, apologies always clean the air. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 18:01, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Edwin Montefiore Borchard

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Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. This is a notice to inform you that a tag has been placed on Edwin Montefiore Borchard requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A3 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is an article with no content whatsoever, or whose contents consist only of external links, a "See also" section, book references, category tags, template tags, interwiki links, images, a rephrasing of the title, a question that should have been asked at the help or reference desks, or an attempt to contact the subject of the article. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator, or if you have already done so, you can place a request here. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 00:06, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello @Mhawk10, I've made a mistake. I intended to create a redirect, so I should have written #REDIRECT [[Edwin Borchard]]; instead I wrote {{Redirect|Edwin Borchard}}. I've made the same mistake with Edwin M. Borchard and now I've corrected it. Thanks, Gitz (talk) (contribs) 00:15, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi! I've turned Edwin Montefiore Borchard into a redirect per your comment above and I've removed the speedy deletion tag. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 00:19, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Lyudmyla Denisova

In the end, it was the Ukrainian parliamentarians themselves, together with 140 public figures, activists and professionals, who also accused her of making unverifiable statements about alleged sexual crimes by Russian troops.[9][10]--Mhorg (talk) 19:01, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Grazie, @Mhorg, ero a conoscenza di questo. Forse si potrebbe mettere l'informazione nel punto appropriato della voce War Crimes. La discussione a RS/N ha preso una piega surreale quando la notizia si è diffusa e alcuni utenti hanno continuato a dire che l'informazione era comunque sufficientemente verificabile! Gitz (talk) (contribs) 20:44, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

A giudicare da quello che sta succedendo alla voce sui crimini di guerra e sulla sua voce personale, sembra ci sia l'intenzione di evitare di parlare dell'accaduto. Mhorg (talk) 09:41, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

3RR warning

Your recent editing history at War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See the bold, revert, discuss cycle for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you do not violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

I made three and no more than three reverts in a 24-hour period: [11] [12] [13]. Therefore, as far as I understand, I complied with WP:3RR. The editor who applied the template:3RR and who forgot to sign it is @Volunteer Marek:. They themselves performed three reverts in that page: [14] [15] [16]. As an involved editor who is engaged in the very same behaviour they are complaining about, they are not in the position to use the 3RR template. I think they just got nervous because they have a pending case at WP:ANI, which I initiated. The fact that they forgot to sign also suggests the template was applied out of spite. They should be reminded that one needs to Be careful about issuing templated messages to editors you're currently involved in a dispute with, as per WP:CIV. I strongly recommend Volunteer Marek to careful read (possibly a couple of times and taking notes) the whole policy one finds at WP:CIV. They would benefit enormously from doing so. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 06:34, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Notification is required prior to a report. You made 3 reverts within FOUR hours. ANI at discussion is pretty much telling you that you should be mindful of WP:BOOMERANG and most commentators (except a couple usual suspects from the War Crimes article) are telling you that you are indeed in the wrong as to the substance. You should pay heed. Volunteer Marek 15:56, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't agree with your reading of the discussion at ANI. I think your incivility and relentless pov-pushing are being exposed there. Anyway, re edit warring I think you should just stick to the WP:BRD cycle and don't revert when you're being reverted. Just seek consensus on the talk page and if you don’t get it (as on this occasion), just let things be: we are not playing a war game here, let alone fighting a war on account of the Ukrainian people. We're just writing an encyclopedia, and your editing style is blocking us. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 17:02, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

You made three reverts in less than four hours so please don't try to lecture me about BRD. Here are some comments from ANI that you might find relevant:

"I will not be suprised if this report ends up in a WP:BOOMERANG (against Gitz6666)"

"I'm definitely concerned by Gitz's clear attempt to slide in content with weasel word caveats while sliding out reliably sourced content in Wikivoice"

"while they (Volunteer Marek) might be forthright in their opinions, their contributions could not be considered exceptional wrt civility or POV. I have found them to be generally acceptive of broader consensus."

"Yeh, Gitz666 has a POV here."

"I am of the general opinion that that Gitz6666 is POV-pushing problematically here "

"Gitz purpose (in this area) is to edit in and promote Russian propaganda and excuse/deny war crimes, that is clear from their editing. Just broadly topic ban them from the Russian invasion of Ukraine"

These are all from six DIFFERENT editors. Offering this piece of advice in 100% good faith: read the room. Volunteer Marek 19:17, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

the thing is, @Volunteer Marek, I know that I'm not a Russian pov-pusher. If someone says otherwise, that's relatively indifferent to me. It means that either they're pov-pushers themselves or that they're not well-informed. Moreover, I know that you're a pov-pusher: the exclusive or prevailing reason why you're here is pursuing a political agenda. If you were honest you'd admit it yourself: you're not at all interested in writing a collective encyclopaedia based on reliable sources and committed to neutrality. What I really don't know, however, is which standard of (in)civility this community deems intolerable. The way you behave is clearly exceptional in that regard, but I don't know if it's something that the community is ready to accept. We'll see it. I've done my best to expose the way you behave and will continue to ask the community to uphold its policies. If in the process I get topic banned or blocked, be it: nobody really gets hurt. I'll work on other projects and I'll be content with myself. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:55, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Well, I tried to give you good faithed advice. It's really all I can do and rest is up to you. Volunteer Marek 00:00, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Volunteer Marek, Gitz is doing the difficult thing here, which is trying to keep an article neutral in a situation like this where not only almost everyone in Wikipedia, but also a lot of press, are not neutral. And not without a reason, after all there is a war going on. Your contributions, Marek, are great many times, but I also believe that they often fail NPOV. And this is not a critique, it is hard to keep a NPOV on a subject like War Crimes. AdrianHObradors (talk) 10:50, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

You need to read WP:3rr carefully. It’s not an allowance. Doug Weller talk 18:57, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

RfC

Since you asked for comments... You should not be doing this because you misrepresent comments by other contributors. My main argument was never false balance. I am simply telling that an event should be significant enough for inclusion as follows from its coverage in RS, no matter what "side" of the conflict. For example, if an event was covered only in few RS when it had happen, but not covered later, it probably has no "lasting significance". If it was just mentioned somewhere over the comma (",...,"), then again, it is not notable enough to be included to an already very long page. My very best wishes (talk) 12:19, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello @My very best wishes, it was Volunteer Marek the one who argued that their reason for remopving the section was WP:UNDUE/false balance: see their opening post on the talk page at 23:00, 18 June 2022, But we absolutely must have an article and text in this article about THAT ONE maybe-Ukrainian missile!!!!!! Because "balance" or some shit. I'm sorry but that kind of approach is just sick. And it's the quintessence of violating WP:UNDUE to push a POV ("both sides do it!!!!"). So I basically tried to summarise also their view, and while in the process I had to drop a few exclamation marks, I dont' think I misrepresented anything substantial. However, if you don't want to be associated with that argument, I think we could drop any reference to the 6 or 7 editors who joined the discussion instead of removing arguments which were actually made. Don't you agree? Gitz (talk) (contribs) 12:31, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

@My very best wishes I've just changed the text as described here above. Please chek it and tell me if it's now OK for you or if you think that there's anything that needs to be added or removed from the summary of your arguments. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 12:38, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

If you want to post an RfC, please see this and check how other people do it. I think you should not mention any specific contributors at all (just make a link to relevant discussion/section on article talk page). If people want to say something, they will comment at the RfC. My very best wishes (talk) 15:56, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment

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AE report

I made a report about your editing here here. You are welcome to reply. My very best wishes (talk) 04:08, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

This is ridiculous - what an appalling waste of time! Anyway I'll be travelling today and tomorrow, and I'll do my best to reply as soon as I can. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 08:27, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

@My very best wishes Gitz (talk) (contribs) 08:27, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Re to this. Sure thing, everyone has an opinion, admitted, and it is difficult to remain neutral. But one should just follow all our editing policies. That is what I am trying to do. In this case, you are saying that one should be "mitigating the responsibilities of the Russian army or documenting allegations of war crimes by the Ukrainian side". I do agree this is something you are trying to do, but I think you crossed the line in a number of cases, for example, by systematically removing well sourced content that contradicts your personal bias - as illustrated by diffs in my request. This is contrary to the policies, as me and other contributors tried to explain to you in a number of discussions we had. My very best wishes (talk) 17:59, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Please @My very best wishes, may I suggest you answer my question at AE and share a few diffs showing that you comply with our policies and guidelines such as NPOV, DISRUPTIVE and TENDENTIOUS? otherwise the boomerang effect might be resounding. You see, you're right in saying that everyone has an opinion, but you're also neglecting a fundamental difference between you and me. I don't edit War crimes in Ukraine for advancing my personal political views, I work on that article because I truly believe that building an encyclopedia based on reliable sources and committed to neutrality is an excellent effort in a time of war: it promotes knowledge, understanding, sympathy for the victims and accountabity for the perpetrators. Plus, I literally don't give a fuck about the Ukrainian/Russian divide; I see only victims and perpetrators. You, on the contrary, you are there just because you oppose the Russian regime, I guess. Therefore you're a liability, you make it more difficult to do our job (which is basically WP:E, WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:RS) and you waste lots of time. I respect your political views and your motivations, but I also believe that if dispute resolution works well you'll get at least topic banned. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 19:23, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Oh no, based on the diffs provided, I think you are clearly editing on the side of the Russian state if there is such "side". I can not speculate about your motivation. And you are wrong about my motivation. My very best wishes (talk) 19:52, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

But to answer your AE question, no, I hardly made any really substantial contributions in this subject area. I have time only to fix a few minor things, occasionally participate in discussions, or file an AE request if I believe that someone does something really detrimental to the project. Indeed, I believe that even your WP:BLUDGEON of talk pages on this subject could warrant such request... My very best wishes (talk) 14:51, 19 July 2022 (UTC)