Talk:Borley Rectory

Re: Richard Morris and his biography of Harry Price

I have great respect for John Randall and his work in Psychic Research. His remarks about Richard Morris's biography, and his dyspeptic remarks about my friend Trevor Hall speak more of his anger that we should attempt to explore the truth behind an icon of Psychic research in the twentieth century, than any glaring errors in Richard Morris's book. My own interest is purely in the Borley Rectory affair, and it is clear to anyone prepared to look at the evidence that even HP's colleagues knew at the time that he was untrustworthy, even if gifted, charming and charismatic. We must, I fear, grasp the nettle that Harry Price's books are misleading, if we are to make sense of what happened at Borley Rectory. I very much regret if the phrase "The final blow to Harry Price's credibility" is upsetting to some, but we cannot afford to take what Price writes on trust. Everything needs to be checked. I think that M H Coleman's excellent work cited in the bibliography, read in sequence, makes a robust case for this. As before, either Richard or I be happy to supply as much primary evidence as you require if you contact either of us. Andrew Clarke 10 June 2008

Re: Richard Morris and his biography of Harry Price

Sorry to disappoint Sumex but much of the material in my biography is based on Price's papers at the University of London, or the British College of Psychic Science formerly the London Spiritualist Alliance in London. Before writing semi-malicious content you should have made a trip to UCL or the BCPS and studied the documentation. If you had you would have reached the conclusion that I was right about Price. I'm always willing to discuss areas of Price's life with readers so please feel free to drop me a line at harry-price@hotmail.co.uk 217.44.57.36 (talk) 11:28, 10 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.57.36 (talk)

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Re: Richard Morris and his biography of Harry Price

I'm sorry to say that this material that Sumex objected to had nothing to do with Richard Morris. I provided most of it, and I have a great deal of primary material to back up what Richard Morris says. I've spent a ridiculous amount of time researching Borley Rectory, because I live nearby and love Harry Price's books. Nobody wants to destroy a man's reputation without being absolutely certain, but both Richard and I can justify everything we've written. It is, sadly, objective fact, and we have reported the facts with great reluctance. Harry Price was a childhood hero of mine.

If 'Sumex' would like to become more familiar with all the research and material that underlies the case, which is far too detailed for this forum, either Richard or I would be pleased to go through it with him. He will find that the case is even stronger than the book states as some material (e.g. Dingwall's confidential file) cannot me used for some time.

I agree with Sumex that Wikipedia is definitely about truth, not prejudice.

Andrew Clarke 10 June 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.177.8.152 (talk) 10:40, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Previous page was removed

Re: The "Official" website

Vince O'Neil, who owns and runs the http://www.borleyrectory.com site, objects to any publicity being given to it other than the index page. We must respect his views. Andrew Clarke 8th Jun 2008

Re: The "Official" website

Whilst it may appear that the official Borley Rectory website at http://www.borleyrectory.com is offline, it seems that's not entirely true - http://www.borleyrectory.com/misc/masterindex.htm reveals that a fair amount of the site is very much online and working, but for some reason the main index page has been replaced with a photograph of Marianne Foyster and the words "Requiescat in pace". The site can be navigated quite well from the master index page though quite a few links return "404" errors, which is why I haven't changed the link on the main article. The main page was updated to the current "offline" appearance on 14/02/06 at 23:41:59. Arkady Rose 22:29, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

That masterindex link no longer works and redirects to a complete different, unrelated website. --71.220.208.58 (talk) 04:04, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it's time to remove this link now? The site isn't archived and a large portion of the content is no longer accessible. If Vincent O'Neil reopens the site we can always put the link back. --Tascio 19:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is sad not to have Vince's invaluable contributions. His intentions are that the materials on www.borleyRectory.com should not be accessible. Therefore the link should not be on Wikipedia until his site is once more operational and he gives his consent. Other people who contributed to his site have mostly been able to make their material available elsewhere. References to this material are given in the entry. Andrew Clarke 8 Dec 2007 —Preceding comment was added at 22:54, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Re: Rectory grounds?

The rectory is on the opposite side of the road to the church. The garden was sold off and now has bungalows in it. The former coach house, which is older than the Bull rectory, has been enlarged and is now a private house. The site of the rectory is now a garden. The current residents have never experienced anything unusual other than tourists. Andrew Clarke 8th Jun 2008

Which garden? there are numerous gardens in this area. Would love the coordinates for the exact spot -- these would also be a good addition to the article. The coordinates for the coach house would be good, too.. --71.220.208.58 (talk) 04:00, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Rectory grounds?

The compound is visible on Google Earth, just type in 'Borley, UK'. Where exactly on the site was the rectory? According to the article its ruins are still there. I can't see them, though, and I can't find a footprint that resembles the house. --Ragemanchoo (talk) 23:42, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Rectory grounds?

There is nothing at all left of the rectory. an article with maps on this subject is in my book, 'The Bones of Borley' Where was borley Rectory Andrew Clarke 26th Feb 2008

Its helpful but some of the maps are confusing. Umm.. can you mark on them where it is the rectories were? It sounds like in all there have been three on the Borley site, or very very near it. --71.220.208.58 (talk) 04:02, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Where was THEE brick house shown in the B&W photos? We ought to post longitude/latitude for it if it is known. It sounds like it was to the south, across the street from the church, near the curve in the road. --208.65.188.23 (talk) 04:54, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

External Links

There are too many links to different pages on the same website. Does anybody have any other suggestions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.97.161.182 (talk) 16:21, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Architect of Borley Rectory

My original entry that the rectory was built to a design that was inspired by Pugin (the fireplaces and staircase in particular) has been edited incorrectly to say it was designed by Pugin. This would indeeed be a supernatural event since Pugin died over a decade earlier. In fact the architect, a Bury man, went on to design Pentlow Rectory. He was an enthusiast for Pugin style and there are many local buildings that are Very similar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AndrewRMClarke (talk • contribs) 11:52, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Anyone for GAN?

I'm thinking of nominating this article at WP:GAN. Any thoughts? Eric Corbett 15:06, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Borley Rectory/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Pyrotec (talk · contribs) 20:19, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I will review. Pyrotec (talk) 20:19, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Initial comments

Sorry for the delay, my main computer crashed Sunday, so its taken the best part of two whole days to get most of the software up and running (emails are still down), so working on wikipeidia articles was low down on my list of "things to do". Pyrotec (talk) 15:51, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm just going to work my way through the article, starting with the History and finishing with the Lede.

• History -

• This generally looks OK, but perhaps the second paragraph is a bit "thin" on citations. Note: the link with the Waldegrave family, has a somewhat "better" citation via this source [1] .
• Interestingly, that nice photograph has a copyright licence granted by a Spanish wikipedia editor [2] who was permanently banned back in Nov 2009 (see [3]). The associated metadata has the "look and feel" of a scanner, so I suspect that the licence is more likely to be Public Domain due to copyright has expired.

  Image licensing is a bloody nightmare, but as the lead image is also of the rear of the house I don't think we need this one anyway, so I've deleted it. Eric Corbett 13:12, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

• Hauntings -

• This section look OK.

• Price investigation -
  • Untitled first subsection -

• I've not yet found that reputed advert in the Times on 25 May 1937. After several search strategies and widening the dates, I came up with a fire walker getting burnt 8 & 10 April 1937 and again in 1938; and Ghost club revived and reformed ghost club in March and April 1938, respectively. Since the Times' digital index is based on an OCR capture of the scanned images, not finding is not "define proof" that it's not there.

  The first subsection doesn't need to be titled. I've checked, and that's definitely the date that Price says in his The End of Borley Rectory that he placed the advert. I'll have a look through Newsquest and see if I can find it. Eric Corbett 13:30, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

  Price's advert is right on the front page, column 4, headed "Haunted House". I'll maybe add that as a link. Eric Corbett 13:43, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks for that. I'm merely using "Untitled first subsection" as a location aid, its not a statement of non-compliance with WP:WIAGA. My county-based public library, more precisely its a consortium of the library authorities in a county, three districts and a city, gives access (using the library card as id) to Infotrac and then The Times digital library, so I checked the claim without success on 16th Aug.. I've now rechecked, and yes it's there as you state. Note: the web gives the citation as:- Source Citation: "Business Offers." Times [London, England] 25 May 1937: 1. The Times Digital Archive. Web. 20 Aug. 2013. Pyrotec (talk) 15:12, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

• • Destroyed by fire -

...stopping for now. To be continued. Pyrotec (talk) 21:21, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

• This subsection looks OK.

• Society for Psychical Research investigation -

• This section look OK.

• WP:Lead -

• This section looks OK.

Overall summary

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

---

An informative article.

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose is clear and concise, without copyvios, or spelling and grammar errors:

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. Has an appropriate reference section:

   B. Citation to reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   B. Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

I'm awarding this article GA-status. Congratulations on getting another article up to GA. Pyrotec (talk) 15:32, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Paranormal claims

In order to quell the recent edit war, it appears as though there should be some discussion on how the article presents claims of paranormal experiences. Thoughts? - Location (talk) 22:00, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Comment: whatever the outcome, can we please avoid the use of "allegedly"? It reads so horribly and isn't really what is meant. Thanks DBaK (talk) 22:04, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

This sounds like a good idea to me. And it probably might not be a bad idea to if possible get some sort of real guideline for this matter, because there are a lot of mystical/paranormal experiences that have been documented in sufficient RS to be covered somewhere around here.

One more or less grammatical point I might make is that I don't think we necessarily need qualifiers for terms like "haunting," or "expulsion of demons," or anything of that sort. Most of our editors would know that there is little if any scientific support for the events even being possible, so referring to them as "alleged" hauntings, for instance, is kind of overkill. Unless someone finds evidence of hauntings which are actually regarded as such by the scientific community, but I wouldn't hold my breath for that to happen.

There is also the matter of whether any of these experiences have any sort of hard, "scientific," results of manifestations. If for instance a person had stigmata which weren't clearly artificially made, qualifiers probably shouldn't be added about them being "alleged" or anything of that type. Also, I suppose, if someone "experienced" something which could, sometimes reasonably, be seen and maybe even described in well regarded independent journals, as being more likely a manifestation of psychological aberration than supernatural input, it would probably make sense to describe those "experiences" by that term, and maybe add the discussion/controversy about their possible causes later. Obvious or well-documented or scientifically discredited frauds wouldn't, I think, qualify for inclusion here.

Just a few ideas, anyway. John Carter (talk) 22:19, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree. This edit appears to be the dispute. Regarding A) "Alleged hauntings" vs. B) "Hauntings", consider C) "Reported hauntings". Regarding A) "The first paranormal events allegedly occurred in about 1863. A few locals claimed to remember hearing footsteps within the house at about this time." vs. B) "The first paranormal events apparently occurred in about 1863, since a few locals later remembered hearing unexplained footsteps within the house at about this time.", consider C) "The first reports of paranormal events occurred around 1863 when a few locals said they heard unexplained footsteps within the house at about this time." If this is moving in the right direction, some of the other issues can be addressed. - Location (talk) 22:22, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

A big part of the problem is the unencyclopedic style of the prose. I'm not sure how this article passed GA with tabloid-isms like "one occasion, Adelaide was attacked by "something horrible" and text peppered with adjectives like "mysterious" and "unexplained". Most serious academic sources opt for general descriptions when covering paranormal topics. Our article insists on using abundant and detailed sensationalistic claims, so in order to satisfy NPOV we have to use "alleged" and "claimed". Of course, the other solution is simply to cut back the amount of WP:UNDUE sensationalistic claims. - LuckyLouie (talk) 22:29, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

While you refer to abundant and detailed sensationalist claims, you only point out two. I could, reasonably, see "unexplained" being a non-sensationalist term, provided the subject being discussed actually hasn't been "explained" or scientifically accounted for. That isn't necessarily a "sensationalist" term. "Mysterious" in this sort of context should probably only be used in cases where, in some way, sacred mysteries is being discussed. In that sort of context, I could reasonably see the term being used, preferably with a direct link to that article. I acknowledge that it can be a bit of a pain to determine what does and doesn't deserve such a link, but if this is to help but together basic guidelines of a kind, we would be dealing with generalities and allowing the specifics to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. And, also, I think the last comment above seems to be taking a bit of a "2 wrongs make a right" approach, which I don't think is one we generally take here. John Carter (talk) 22:39, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

The essential problem here is due to some editors who mistakenly think that it is acceptable in an encyclopaedia article to make assertions or claims about the reports of paranormal phenomena as being factual and objective truth. I happen to believe that such phenomena is possible. But my belief in this possibility doesn't permit me to edit articles with my bias and point of view. No editor is permitted to make truth assertions about such things. This includes making truth claims for religious doctrines and beliefs. In order to be neutral, which is a required principle of editing on Wikipedia, we can only refer to such things as beliefs and not realities. Therefore we can only refer to "reports of hauntings" or "reputed hauntings" and so on. Afterwriting (talk) 02:22, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I am personally a religious believer and a fairly serious opponent of fringe and paranormal. As someone who offers no particular credibility to a lot of Islam, which is not my faith of choice, I can still see that an article with a title like Miracles of Muhammad is reasonable. In cases like that, and like a lot of hauntings or whatever, it is so far as I can see considered standard to not demand scientific qualifiers when their is a generally implicit understanding that the topic is not given scientific regard. And I honestly do not see any clear evidence that their are "assertions or claims about the reports of paranormal phenomena as being factual and objective truth." It is, so far as I can see, generally just a matter of common usage of the English language to not demand such qualifiers on all such topics. If you can point out a clear indication of where in the article there is a clear assertion or claim of something being factual and objective, of course, as per WP:BURDEN, I would love to see it, but I don't myself see any such in the article right now. John Carter (talk) 15:40, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

All articles are expected to only assert objective facts to be true and not subjective opinions. This article is riddled with opinions being asserted as true. See WP:ASSERT and WP:YESPOV. Afterwriting (talk) 15:47, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

You do realize this sort of discussion really only makes sense if you actively produce a few specific examples rather than engaging in broad, and generally fairly unverifiable, or at least unverified, assertions, right? John Carter (talk) 15:52, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

All anyone needs to do is read the article. It contains a number of assertions that the reputed hauntings are objective facts ~ not just "reports of hauntings" or "alleged hauntings" but actual hauntings. It is hardly necessary to have to quote them when they are so obvious. Afterwriting (talk) 16:01, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

It should be very easy for you to provide examples then. So why haven't you? Eric Corbett 16:14, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Location posted a link (above) containing the edits under discussion. You must have missed these. Here are links again for you: [4], [5]. In addition, Location offered suggestions for copyedits. You may have missed those also. - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:36, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

And, apparently, the individuals you are critiquing would include you in their number, and possibly Afterwriting, because neither of you referred to those links before, but, so far as I can tell, were engaging in general criticism, of a generally less than productive type. Regarding the one Location offered in this thread, the option he proposed as "C" seems to me to be reasonable, and I would be interested to know what @Eric Corbett:, who has done a lot of work on this article, would say about that option. John Carter (talk) 17:10, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Option "C" seems to me to change the sense of what's being said, insofar as the locals didn't report the paranormal activity in 1863 but recalled it at some unspecified time later. Eric Corbett 17:56, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

You're right, I missed that earlier. John Carter (talk) 18:00, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

The article currently states: "The first paranormal events reportedly occurred in about 1863, since a few locals later remembered having heard unexplained footsteps within the house at about that time." There are a few issues with this sentence. First, it states as fact that there was, in fact, a first paranormal event. A report of a paranormal event is certainly different than an honest to goodness paranormal event. Secondly, changing "apparently" to "reportedly" doesn't address the first point as these are both adverbs modifying the verb "occurred". In this context, "reportedly" only expresses doubt as to when the first paranormal event occurred, but it should be used to express doubt to the veracity of the locals' report (i.e. "Local residents reportedly heard unexplained footsteps in the house around 1863."). I prefer dropping "reportedly" where is appears weasel-ly and using in-text attribution: "According to local residents, paranormal activity in the house occurred around 1863." "According to Price, local residents told him that they heard footsteps in the house around 1863." "According to Price, local residents told him that the first paranormal events occurred around 1863." Thirdly, the correct paraphrasing of the source depends on what the source actually said. I don't have access to Price, so I'm curious as to whether he used the term "paranormal" and whether or not it was his research (vs. ours) that described the "unexplained footsteps" as the first report. - Location (talk) 20:56, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand what the sentence is actually saying, and none of your suggested alterations make any sense to me. Eric Corbett 21:02, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

There is a substantial article on this topic in the 1984 The Encyclopedia of Ghosts by Daniel Cohen. It runs to around five pages of text, which I could, I guess, e-mail to anyone who sent me an e-mail. There is also a substantial article in the Guiley Encyclopedia of Ghosts and Spirits which I might be able to get by the weekend. Or, if anyone were interested, it might be possible to get those articles, and maybe more, from WP:RX. Anyway, if anyone wants at least the first article, drop me an e-mail. Alternately, if anyone wants me to contact RX, or chooses to contact them themselves, it would probably be a good idea to let others know the documents are available. John Carter (talk) 21:07, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Really? The preferred reliable sources are a parapsychology advocate a fringe paranormal promoter? How about some WP:FRIND sources? - LuckyLouie (talk) 21:54, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I am becoming regularly amused at your conduct in this matter, particularly your apparent difficulty in reading what others say. If you had bothered to read the entirety of the statement I had posted, I think you will see that I indicated that those were the ones I could find quickly which had substantive content on this subject. I also indicated that you could contact WP:RX, which is a source at which other sources could be found. Although it is interesting to see how quickly some people jump to conclusions about sources which they apparently haven't even bothered to look at yet. I mentioned the works I did mention because the article includes a link to the Guiley book on one of the project library pages I have already created, and today I have a copy of the Cohen book in front of me, because I was thinking about maybe adding it to the article list. Perhaps, instead of asking rather obnoxious and more than somewhat judgemental questions about what others can find, you make some effort to maybe do something more constructive than asking such completely rhetorical and basically completely non-productive, if not actually counterproductive, questions? ;) John Carter (talk) 22:06, 2 September 2015 (UTC)