Talk:Conservative Party (UK)

"Centre-right" should, at the very least, be replaced by "Centre-right to right-wing"

As the thread above states, the two sources used to justify listing the party's political position as "Centre-right" are from 1994 and 2016 - to pretend that the party is still the same party that it was back then is dishonest and dangerous.

The party's current agenda is most certainly not "centre-right" - its immigration policy in particular has more in common with the BNP than it does with the Conservative Party of 2016.

Furthermore, many of the people in the party's cabinet, such as Suella Braverman, Kemi Badenoch and David TC Davies, as well as the party's deputy chair Lee Anderson, are recognised by Wikipedia as being explicitly right-wing - an explicitly right-wing faction, which includes other prominent Conservative politicians, such as Liz Truss, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Esther McVey, Nadine Dorries, Priti Patel, Bill Cash, John Hayes, etc, exists and is very influential in the party, which, for other conservative parties, such as the Conservative Party of Canada, has been enough to earn the label "Centre-right to right-wing" on Wikipedia, which is an accurate label; some factions are centre-right, and some are right-wing.

I don't see why we can't do the same thing here, especially since the right-wing faction is more influential than it ever has been at any point since the 1980s. Wikipedia's job is to state the facts as they are, and stating that a party that has been shifting right for the past half-decade is still "centre-right", using wildly outdated sources to justify this, is not stating the facts; it is purely irresponsible.

Please change the party's position to "centre-right to right-wing", as this more accurately represents the true political position of the party. 2.100.64.182 (talk) 11:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I second this. There's ample evidence in support of the Conservative and Unionist Party no longer being considered a strictly centre-right only party (really the evidence is much stronger that it's a right-wing to far-right party). Evidence describing the Tories as centre-right is a decade out of date at best, and rather disengenious of us to continue claiming it's souly a centre-right political party.

I've provided a non-exhastive list list of outlets across the political spectrum that have described the Conservative Party as either right-wing or far-right over the past few years [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11]. Aditionaly, though while not a news source, yougov polling indicates 41% of people in the UK consider the tories right-wing or very right-wing, with only 13% calling it centre-right. [12].

One of wikipedia's greatest benefits is that it can keep up with the times, and it's time to update this article to do just that. Bejakyo (talk) 10:08, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

There's a lot of issues with the sources you list. Many are opinion pieces, which comes under WP:RSOPINION. And there's ones like the BBC video involving Anna Soubry, again its clearly her stating her personal view point. You really need reliable sources (see Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources) that comply with WP:SYNTH in explicitly calling the party right-wing, and not via an opinion piece. Helper201 (talk) 14:53, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

2.100.64.182, I completely agree with this concern. I think it's wrong that WP:SYNTH should be misused to stop people from saying that the Conservatives have a right-wing faction, despite it being absolutely, emphatically, obviously true, and recognised by its own accord across Wikipedia. There's such a ridiculous abundance of sources to state it, as well. The idea you need a vague, "non-opinion"-based source that nobody can seem to identify is a bit silly. The statement that the Conservatives are solely centre-right is utterly bizarre, given how misleading and demonstrably untrue it is. Aubernas (talk) 10:32, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

In addition to this, both current sources don't even explicitly state that the Tories are a centre-right party. One is a project summary (not a research paper) that merely states that the Tories compete on the centre-right, not that they are predominantly a centre-right party. The other source, a book on the post-Thatcher party from 30 years ago (thoroughly outdated unless we assume the Tores have been frozen in time for three decades), has one sentence that states that most Tory member identify as centre-right, but again doesn't explicitly state that the party is centre-right. Those are some weak sources. Cortador (talk) 05:49, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Exactly, and there are several prominent right wing people in the party including the Foreign Secretary, the Leader, and the Deputy Chairman Sbad61 (talk) 19:42, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

I'll see whether I can dig out some more recent sources, preferably academic. Cortador (talk) 06:53, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

100% please do, centre right to right wing is accurate, far-right wouldn't be correct but centre-right isn't correct either. Sbad61 (talk) 08:45, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

and here are some sources that back this up also

https://www.torrossa.com/en/resources/an/4912091#page=54

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2022/09/30/the-tories-are-now-the-most-rightwing-governing-party-in-the-developed-world/ Sbad61 (talk) 09:00, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Here's a few sources:

Al-Jazeera describing the party as being on the right (not centre-right): https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/7/20/how-a-change-in-leadership-could-affect-uks-conservative-party

Time Bale, a professor for politics, describes the party as right-wing populist in his book, The Conservative Party After Brexit: Turmoil and Transformation: https://theloop.ecpr.eu/the-british-conservative-partys-journey-towards-the-populist-radical-right/

Evan et al. argue that the Tories used to be a centre-right party, but adopted right-wing politics to appease right-wing populist voters: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/00323217211051191

The Week cites the Tories as a moderate right-wing party that has now become increasingly nationalist and populist: https://www.theweek.co.uk/news/politics/958099/tories-at-war-what-happened-to-the-worlds-most-successful-party

The Guardian notes that the Tories have "shifted decisively to the right": https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/01/righter-than-right-tory-conservative-hardline-drift-public-opinion

The Morning Express has a piece that echoes that: https://morningexpress.in/right-wing-extremism-infiltrates-the-uk-conservative-party/

The TLDR here is that the Tories used to be a centre-right party, but have shifted to the right in recent years in order to appease right-wing voters and the right wing of their party, which used to be a minority wing. I believe this is sufficient to position the party as right-wing in the infobox, and to add "right-wing populism" under the list of ideologies - especially considering the current weak sources that put it as centre-right. Cortador (talk) 08:47, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Off-topic discussion @Cortador, were those sourced cherry-picked or randomly selected? -- DeFacto (talk). 09:41, 30 August 2023 (UTC) If you don't agree with this assessment, feel free to provide reliable sources to the contrary. Cortador (talk) 10:20, 30 August 2023 (UTC) @Cortador, I haven't read them yet, but I just wondered how you came across them. Did you search specifically for those views, or what? -- DeFacto (talk). 12:40, 30 August 2023 (UTC) Why are you concerned about sourced you haven't even looked at being potentially "cherry-picked"? Cortador (talk) 12:49, 30 August 2023 (UTC) @Cortador, I'm curious as to whether they represent a random cross-section of sources, or just a cross-section of sources selected because of the opinion they support. -- DeFacto (talk). 13:29, 30 August 2023 (UTC) See my reply above. Cortador (talk) 14:43, 30 August 2023 (UTC) @Cortador, which of your several replies above do you mean? None of them seem to answer my question. You must know how you selected the sources to present here. -- DeFacto (talk). 15:53, 30 August 2023 (UTC) Why are you concerned about sourced you haven't even looked at being potentially "cherry-picked"? Cortador (talk) 16:09, 30 August 2023 (UTC) @Cortador, see my reply above, the one I made in response to exactly the same question last time you asked it. Now please tell us how you selected those particular sources. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:53, 30 August 2023 (UTC) See my reply above. Cortador (talk) 18:38, 30 August 2023 (UTC) Could we assume then, that you cherry-picked those particular sources to support a particular POV, rather than to try to understand what the balance of views amongst reliable sources was? -- DeFacto (talk). 19:02, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Here's an interesting present-day piece by a columnist in The Telegraph, arguing that whereas Margaret Thatcher and John Major handed Blair a nation that had dramatically shifted Right-wards during their rule. The Tories today will bequeath Sir Keir Starmer a far more Left-wing country. -- DeFacto (talk). 09:54, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Too long to navigate

At 287,000 bytes, I would suggest that this article is too long to navigate comfortably (in particular the history section). Would anyone oppose me moving (especially more recent history) onto the History of the Conservative Party (UK) page and then condensing the history section of this page down? Thanks Michaeldble (talk) 17:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

The history section is about the same length as the entire History of the Conservative Party (UK) page, it is far too long and recentist. Would anyone have any objections from me trimming down this section? Michaeldble (talk) 11:38, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Conservatives and Unionists (1867–1914)

The second paragraph says Churchill denounced chamberlain's attack on free trade but this 'attack' is not previously mentioned anywhere. Imo it needs stating that Chamberlain was one of the proponents of tariffs. Firestar47 (talk) 16:53, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Financial links to Kremlin-linked individuals

The Conservative Party are notable for their 20-year history of financial ties to Russian oligarchs. This has come under increasing controversy since the invasion, but was already controversial as early as 2006 after Litvinenko was poisoned. Below is a section I've written about these issues, to be put in the "Controversy" section. I reject that this is a fringe issue. Multiple reliable sources describe this as being scandalous or dangerous, including...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/feb/23/oligarchs-funding-tories This article claims that "what has undoubtedly happened is that a series of people with dual UK-Russian nationality, or with significant business links with Russia, have donated heavily to the Conservatives in recent years"

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19946067.uk-conservative-partys-links-russian-money-donors/ "The Tories have long been criticised for their own economic links to Russian money and have faced a barrage of calls to stop accepting such donations. In 2020, a report condemned successive UK Governments for failing to protect Britain from Russian influence. It said that Russian influence at the highest levels of society was “the new normal”."

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/12/world/europe/russian-money-uk-tories.html " One of the biggest donors to Britain’s Conservative Party is suspected of secretly funneling hundreds of thousands of dollars to the party from a Russian account, according to a bank alert filed to Britain’s national law enforcement agency... It is no secret that wealthy Russian industrialists have given heavily to the Conservative Party over the years. Mr. Johnson once played a game of tennis with the wife of a Russian former minister in exchange for a $270,000 donation."

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/conservative-party-russia-donors-ukraine-invasion/ The Conservative Party has accepted tens of thousands of pounds from donors linked to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine, new filings have shown. It includes £50,000 from Lubov Chernukhin, who is married to Vladimir Putin’s former deputy finance minister. Labour MP Chris Bryant, who chairs the standards and privileges committees, said the Conservatives “should be ashamed”. He added British politicians were giving the world the impression that they were “craven, greedy, and impotent”.

https://goodlawproject.org/revealed-the-tories-are-still-receiving-funds-from-russia-linked-donors/ A year on since Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, we can reveal that the Conservative Party is still receiving large donations from individuals and companies with links to Russia.

How is this a "fringe opinion"? It's so blatantly obvious that this is percieved to be a major conflict of interest between the Conservative Party and the country at large, which has tense relations with the Russian Federation. Why shouldn't a version of the following section be featured on this page?

"Financial ties to Russia" (Proposed subsection)

It is well-understood that the Conservative Party has extensive financial ties to Russian oligarchs, stretching back to the early 2000s. Scrutiny became more prominent after alleged interference in the 2016 Brexit referendum by the Kremlin to support the Vote Leave campaign, and increased after the Intelligence and Security Committee Russia report into Russian interference in British politics was published in July 2020. Concerns over Conservative Party funds have become increasingly controversial due to Vladimir Putin's human rights abuses and the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.

One of the first was Lubov Chernukhin, wife of former deputy finance minister and investment company VEB.RF founder Vladmir Chernukhin, who had donated north of £2.2 million as of the start of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. All those who have donated to the Conservative Party have dual UK-Russian citizenship, as donations to British political parties is only legal for citizens. However, an investigation conducted by the The New York Times shortly after the invasion of Ukraine, determined that a £399,810 donation made by British-Israeli businessman Ehud Sheleg in 2018 was in fact given directly to him by his father-in-law, Russian oligarch Sergei Kopytov. Kopytov, a former minister in Russian-occupied Crimea, has strong ties to Vladimir Putin's government. Barclays Bank reported that in January 2021, they "[traced] a clear line back from this donation to its ultimate source”, and reported it accordingly to the National Crime Agency.

An investigation by the Good Law Project found that in spite of Johnson's claims that donations from those with links to the Kremlin was to stop, since the start of the war, the Conservatives have accepted at least £243,000 from Russia and Kremlin-associated donors. This includes Lubov Chernukhin, who donated £10,000 to Brandon Lewis, former Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor, as well as a further £34,000 via what the Good Law Project described as "auction prizes". This was after Chernukhin's husband company VEB.RF was sanctioned by the British government. Aquind, a British-based cabling company controlled by Russian born oil tycoon Viktor Fedotov, has donated £42,000 to the Conservative Party since February 2022, including a £10,000 donation in cash to Liam Fox MP reported in January 2023. This is related to the controversy surrounding the AQUIND Interconnector, a proposed Franco-British HVDC submarine power cable, which is controversial due to the links between the Russian-owned company and the Conservatve Party.  Fedotov is allegedly close to the Kremlin; the Good Law Project alleges he made at least £72m from money funnelled offshore from Russian companies. During the same timeframe, Ukrainian-British businessman Alexander Temerko (who is also a director on the Aquind company board), has donated a further £10,000 to the Conservatives. Temerko has donated over £700,000 in total.

In 2022, the Labour Party used Electoral Commission information to calculate that that donors who had made money from Russia or Russians had given £1.93m to either the Conservative party or constituency associations since Boris Johnson's premiership began. Aubernas (talk) 10:27, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

I've added the section back to the article. It's well-sourced and none of the users who keep reverting this addition has bothered to voice their criticism here beyond stating that they don't like the addition. Cortador (talk) 13:41, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

References

Recent addition

@Aubernas, it's not me that needs the consensus, it is you - per WP:ONUS. So please self-revert (per WP:BRD), continue with the talkpage discussion and to try to make your case. Before you do that though, it seems you need to brush-up on WP:WEASEL, WP:DATED, WP:NPOV, WP:OR/WP:SYNTH, WP:UNDUE, WP:VER, WP:TALK/WP:READFIRST, and WP:NPA. -- DeFacto (talk). 12:25, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

@Aubernas It is also probably best to assume good faith rather than attacking the neutrality of other editors in your edit summaries Michaeldble (talk) 12:42, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Failed verification tag

A failed verification tag was added for the political positions section in the infobox recently. If it does fail verification, does anyone have a better source for the centre-right claim, as this seems very important to source well. All the best Michaeldble (talk) 16:11, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't see any failed verification, both citations are correct and contain citation of the statement. Failed verification tag was added wrongly. ThecentreCZ (talk) 22:56, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

One source is a website with a project summary that states that the Tories are competing "on the centre right of British politics", which, according to that summary, is also what New Labour and UKIP do. That is all it states. There is not claim that the Tories are a centre-right party, or where else they are competing. And again, it's just a project summary, not even a research paper, let alone a peer-reviewed one. That is not a good source. The other source is a book on the post-Thatcher Conservative Party. It is from 30 years ago, so unless we assume that the Tories have been politically frozen for three decades, it is likely outdated That aside, the book doesn't state anywhere that the Tories are a centre-right party. It does say (p. 141):

"It is clear from the distribution of opinions on these scales that most Conservatives think of themselves as being on the centre-right both within the Conservative party and within British politics as a whole."

However, right below that it states:

"What is interesting, however, is that some 41 per cent of members placed themselves in the left to centre categories (1 to 5) on the party scale, which, given the results of the factor analysis, implies that they tend towards the anti-traditionalist and anti-individualist ends of the spectrum."

So all we have here is one book from decades ago stating that a relative majority of Tories self-identify as centre-right, whereas a high number of other members self-identify as left or centre. Not only are we lacking a clear statement of the party's position, but what we get is self-identification as a broad party all the way from the left across the centre to the right. If we were to use this source at all (which we should not), the infobox should state "left to right", because that is what the source actually says. Yes, a relative majority of members back in the day said they identify as centre-right, but ignoring the position of the actual remaining majority isn't good enough.

Also, neither source does feature a "citation of the, statement", even though one is a book with 300+ pages and should definitely at least include a page number. Cortador (talk) 08:53, 21 August 2023 (UTC)