Talk:Ancient synagogues in Palestine

Gevald....

Chesdovi, this...this is crazy. What are you doing? Are you a Canaanist or something?—Biosketch (talk) 08:09, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Move procedures

If an editor objects to the name of the article, they should follow the process laid out at WP:RFM, not unilaterally decide what is "POV" and seek to replace the terms used by reliable sources with the ones that they prefer. nableezy - 19:10, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 3 May 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (non-admin closure) — Music1201 ^talk 03:45, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

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Ancient synagogues in Palestine → Ancient synagogues in the State of Palestine – In line with standard conventions (Synagogues in <foo country>) and in parallel with the proposal to move Oldest synagogues in the Land of Israel to Ancient synagogues in Israel GreyShark (dibra) 20:23, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Oppose. The standard English name for the area historically is Palestine, and your persistent attempt to rewrite historical usage by rewording the past according to the contemporary political split creates anachronisms. The State of Palestine is not recognized by the major actors and while a reality for most, is geographically indeterminate, just as Israel has not defined its borders. Since both states have no borders, defining synagogues in one or the other is going to be meaningless and confusing.Nishidani (talk) 20:58, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Oppose, not all synagogues need to be categorised as being located in present-day countries. Chesdovi (talk) 10:31, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Oppose. The current name has been the scholarly standard for more than a century. Zero^talk 10:35, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Oppose and merge this into Land of Israel article about the same thing since there's much overlap. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 14:54, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Support Greyshark's proposal provides a clearer definition for the location of the synagogues. At the moment the two articles are overlapping in scope, and I don't think merging into a single "region" article is in line with most precedents (which follow countries). My only concern is how we deal with the more hotly disputed areas such as the synagogues in the Old City of Jerusalem (including the Jewish quarter), an area which is in the "Palestinian territories" / "State of Palestine", and in Israel (despite the latter not having gained international recognition). Oncenawhile (talk) 21:40, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Oppose blatant political motives for move. Palestine is not universally recognised as a state.  InsertCleverPhraseHere  09:24, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Most of the synagogues are in Israel

I don't get this article at all. Looking at the list of synagogues, they are not in Palestine but in Israel. I changed the link to Palestine Region for clarification, but I still think this article is a POV fork and should be deleted, we can use ancient synagogues in the land of Israel article which covers all of this. This article can be merged into Ancient Synagogues in Israel. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 15:00, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

I think this proposal has no viable chance of being accepted. But we could, and should, simply remove all those that are in Israel. Debresser (talk) 16:25, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Why won't it be accepted? Other than the word Palestine in the lead, it's all about Israel. If we remove all those synagogues that are in Israel, we'll be left with nothing. I propose moving the list to the Israel section and adding some of the sources from here to that article as well. But I do think the article is a fork and should be AFD, but I know that won't happen either. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 16:27, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Can you do a little study of history, both of you. This allergy to the default use of Palestine for the region from paleolithic times to 1948 is absurd.Nishidani (talk) 16:33, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

The article referred to "state of Palestine," I changed it to Palestinian Region, but my point still stands, this article is almost a duplicate of the Israel one.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Sir Joseph (talk • contribs)

Nishidani I am not allergic. But if you disagree that Jerusalem is in Israel, then I disagree that Ashkelon is in Palestine. I am not more allergic than you are. Please keep in mind that article are being read by modern people, not paleolithic ones. Debresser (talk) 17:12, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Not quite, because the region of Palestine includes the modern state of Israel, and most of the world agrees that Jerusalem is not in that modern state. nableezy - 15:39, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

I removed all those that are unequivocally in Israel. I then restored the previous text "modern Palestine". If anybody wants the list to remain as large as it was before, the text should say "Palestine region", as Sir Joseph changed it, and the title must be changed to include the word "region" as well. See my opinion at the merge discussion Talk:Ancient_synagogues_in_Israel#Proposed_merge_with_Ancient_synagogues_in_Palestine. Debresser (talk) 16:56, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

By the way, I checked each item before I removed it. If I made a mistake, please discuss. However, wholesale reverts will not be accepted, and editors promptly reported at WP:ARBPIA. Debresser (talk) 17:01, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

As another by the way, this article was created by notorious promoter of the word "Palestine", Chesdovi, whose mess we are still cleaning up on Wikipedia. Debresser (talk) 17:10, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, Chesdovi went berserk on Palestinization of all possible and impossible Wikipedia articles raising mess and havoc, so perhaps this is a way to standartise it without his participation (now banned from adding "Palestine" to any article previously not including it).GreyShark (dibra) 13:23, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Merge it with the Israel one and put it in a section named "West Bank and Gaza Strip". Half of them are not under the authority of the Palestinian Authority, defenently not under the State of Palestine which administer nothing. Just put them there. It says "land of Israel".--Bolter21 (talk to me) 14:05, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Wait, you changed it Palestine region, then removed ones that are covered by that? How exactly does that make any sense at all? nableezy - 15:39, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

I restored those, the region was known as Palestine and largely still is. Get over it. nableezy - 15:41, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

I think you're missing a step. Chesdovi had it as Palestine (state), I changed it to the region. Then Debresser removed the entries that are in Israel. You need to learn to AGF a bit more often. And I still think we don't need this POV Fork article. If the subject is a religious subject, then it makes sense to use Land of Israel. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 15:50, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

No, "Land of Israel" isnt the common name of the region in English, its Palestine. The subject is about ancient houses of worship in a defined region. That region is "Palestine", which includes both the modern state of Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories. So "in Palestine" would be what an English encyclopedia would and should use. nableezy - 16:07, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

It is true that many ancient Palestinian synagogues are today located in Israel. To prevent any confusion, this page should be moved to its original name as that is the scholarly term used in the sources which were consulted to create this truly amazing and fascinatingly informative page. Chesdovi (talk) 23:02, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Which original name? Debresser (talk) 23:07, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Nableezy. 1. "Palestine" is definitely not the name of the region any more. That is true for older sources, but not acceptable on Wikipedia of the 21st century. Not without the qualifier "region". You know this very well, compare for example Palestine (region). 2. Your edit goes against consensus here. 3. I will report you in the most serious way if you make another wholesale revert, which is both wrong in itself and against consensus. You are well aware of WP:ARBPIA. Debresser (talk) 23:07, 31 May 2016 (UTC)