Talk:Night Without End (history book)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 December 2021

authors of practiciing "source-racism"

in Reception - should be “practicing” with one i postleft on mobile! 02:34, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 02:42, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

January 2022 edits

Preserving here by providing this link; my rationale was: "undue weight given to state-affiliated IPN publications and state employees; the refutations of them are unneeded." --K.e.coffman (talk) 21:35, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman You realize that with this edit [1] you ultimately removed all remaining scholarly criticism of the book, leaving behind the flattering reviews only. Right? - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:01, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman I added a POV tag [2] following your removal [3] of referenced scholarly reviews. I don’t agree with a total removal of all criticism performed by you. - GizzyCatBella🍁 23:41, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

It would be great if said criticism came from sources that are not state-affiliated publications and not government employees. These are not WP:INDEPENDENT sources. The removal of such sources actually improves the neutrality of the article, since gov positions are not given WP:UNDUE weight. So the tag is not appropriate.

In contrast, here's a review by Stephan Lehnstaedt which has a nuanced discussion: [4]. You are welcome to add it to the article. --K.e.coffman (talk) 17:10, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

What's wrong with state-affiliated publications? Which Wikipedia policy discourages using them? Thanks - GizzyCatBella🍁 23:57, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

WP:NOTADVOCACY comes to mind, and I already linked WP:INDEPENDENT. --K.e.coffman (talk) 18:53, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Excuse me K.e.coffman but WP:ADVOCACY (which is about article content, not sources), nor WP:INDEPENDENT say anything about state-affiliated sources. Yad Vashem, The Smithsonian, BBC are all state-affiliated. - GizzyCatBella🍁 00:08, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Independent from what? You removed at least three reliable, scholarly reviews. Polish-Jewish Studies, pl:Zeszyty Historyczne WiN-u and pl:Glaukopis are all peer-reviewed publications (I checked their websites, they all clearly state they use double-blind peer review or like). The authors of reviews you removed are professional historians: pl:Tomasz Domański (historyk), Karolina Panz [5], pl:Dawid Golik, Piotr Gontarczyk... I fully support attributing all information, so if this wasn't clear, we should state, in text, that such and such opinion/review comes from Author A publishing in Journal B. And yes, I fully support adding the review you found (by pl:Wikipedysta:Xx236/Tomasz Frydel in pl:Acta Poloniae Historica). Perhaps some of the content here could benefit from rewriting, but removal of reliable, scholarly criticism is very much not a best practice. I support restoring the previous version of the article that has been stable for a long time (with no objection to rewriting anything, as long as we don't remove mentions of the book's reception in said reliable sources). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:30, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

I will mostly agree with Piotrus here. We certainly should mention that they are publishing in state-affiliated sources/are supporting the current government policy, but even then, in the previous version, we put much less weight on govt historians than independent ones. I think it's undisputable the IPN's publications and Glaukopis are not exactly the top-notch peer-reviewed journals we are looking for - they are acceptable, but they do have that institutional/author bias problem as no one from the outside tends to publish there. However, regardless of whether IPN's officials are biased (they vast majority of them very certainly is), they are still historians and have the relevant credentials and expertise. Polish pro-govt scholarship on the Holocaust, though its quality is not high, is not nearly as bad as most Turkish scholarship on the Armenian genocide after all. The section should include statements of some scholars who describe IPN-affiliated historians' reviews as an example of a smear campaign against the book (see e.g. Persak's comment included in pl:Tomasz Domański (historyk) and the Polish version of the article with the Polish Academy of Sciences intervening), but should not exclude IPN's historians altogether. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 12:27, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

BBC is known for its editorial independence; it's publicly financed but it's not part of the government, unlike the IPN. As to the IPN:

...the 2018 law officially changed the mission statement of the Institute of National Remembrance, a state research body created in 1988 to investigate Nazi- and Soviet-era crimes, to include “protecting the reputation of the Republic of Poland and the Polish Nation.” The rebranding immediately led many scholars to dub the Institute “the Ministry of Memory,” the Orwellian accent clear.

Source: "The Political Battle Over Poland’s Holocaust History: A libel verdict against two historians marks a new stage in the Polish government’s campaign to control the narrative of the country’s wartime past.", by Lawrence Douglas in the Wall Street Journal, April 7, 2021: [6].

As far as scholars describing IPN-affiliated historians' reviews as an example of a smear campaign against the book, why enable the smear campaign further by including it, sourced to said historians directly, on this page? WP:BLP applies to the article on the book as well. If the controversy over the IPN statements is sufficiently impactful, then it would be covered in third-party sources. They can then be used to discuss the controversy, rather than including the unfiltered opinions as if they were dispassionate contributions to a scholarly debate. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:07, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

I think we aren't enabling the smear it if we provide adequate warnings to the readers. We would do so if we were to provide the information at equal footing with the independent researchers, or, even worse, skewing the interpretation towards the govt narrative. Simply excluding the information would mean that there was no fuss at all about the topic among scholars, even though there surely was. You may argue that IPN is compromised (and, to a large extent, it is), but it still hosts historians who publish, well, valid research, even if from a right-wing and nationalist perspective. We aren't the people who are making the judgment call to exclude historians based on their competences - it should be other historians (and other historians address the points raised by IPN's historians). Besides, it would be a disservice for a reader not to know about the reactions of these scholars if they exist. It's better to write more while framing in the proper context than not to write anything and make people wonder about the reason there was scholarly controversy about the book.

That they are, in a way, proxying for the government, would be relevant only if the government pressured them to publish these articles (directly or by threat of criminal prosecution) - as far as I am aware IPN is more of an echo chamber of nationalist historians who sincerely believe they are doing the right thing. If there were pressure on the historians or if they were spoonfed ideas from "above" or if the historians operated in a country with limited or non-existent freedom of speech, I would say that indeed you were right when deleting the fragments, as effectively the opinions weren't theirs. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 03:28, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. I will also repeat that historians and publications are not required to be unbiased, in fact, very few are. Just like NPOV states that neutrality is next to impossible, it's just an idea to start. Per Weberian ideal type. Grabowski has a bias, his critics have their biases, so do we all here. The point is that if sources are reliable, and peer reviewed sources are, that's enough. We attribute them and let the reader draw their own conclusions. Btw, it is also incorrect to frame this discussion on the grounds of IPN - only one of the cited journals, Polish-Jewish Studies, is IPN-backed, the others seem run by some theoretically independent NGOs (although it is possible they are somehow connected to IPN through funds, ideology, or both). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:31, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

The other two journals are rather niche and almost all people who publish there are nationalist historians. I didn't find any financial/institutional ties to IPN, but when comparing the historians publishing there and in IPN post-2015, you will see a lot of the same people. I would argue that the best journals don't simply attract one side of the political/historical debate, but I can't dismiss any of the two non-IPN journals as predatory, as I have no evidence for deep flaws within them. It might be, however, that IPN's reviews themselves are deeply flawed, but then we should show that by citations from 3rd-party historians.

Dreamcatcher25, well, I think no one has doubts about IPN's reliability back in 2004, when it in general was a respected institution and when people of all sorts of ideologies were publishing there. The question most probably arose due to the changes happening since about 2016. I don't think that blanket deprecation of IPN post-2015 is going to garner enough support, though. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 11:22, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Side comment: few can deny the increasing ideological bias of IPN under "new" management in the last few years. But ideological bias is not related to reliability, just to neutrality of a source. Attribution is solution enough in such cases. Anyway, I think we have a consensus here to restore the removed content (sources), since the original criticism was that they are UNDUE but that assertion has not been met with support? I'll add that if the reviews are given undue weight due to length etc. the solution would be to expand the article with coverage from other reviews. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:43, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Firstly, Yad Vashem example seems legit since it is "state/nationial memory institution" with similar mission like IPN. If en.wiki has no problem with YV, why not with IPN? Secondly, citing one press article to smear this institution is ridiculous. While I may agree that IPN's public image has been damaged in the last few years, is there any proof that there is consensus among the scholars to boycott IPN, not to cite its publications, not to participate in the science conferences organized by IPN, not to invite IPN's historians to participate in such conferences? Does the en.wiki community agreed not to use IPN publications? Last example, there is a book published by the IPN with contributing authors like Shmuel Krakowski or Dieter Pohl. Also, not credible source?Dreamcatcher25 (talk) 10:36, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

This is damning with faint praise:

• to a large extent IPN is compromised;
• from a right-wing and nationalist perspective;
• IPN is more of an echo chamber of nationalist historians

Is this the best we can do in a BLP-related article? I generally agree that the controversy around IPN statements should be covered, but the proper context is achieved through the use third-party sources that would discuss such controversy. If other historians do it, then it can definitely be included, without raising BLP concerns. --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:24, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

I would ask you not to quote me out of context, particularly with the first two bullet points. My opinion, for the record, was that the institution (IPN) was to a large extent compromised; the historians themselves - not necessarily ("it still hosts historians who publish, well, valid research"), but they are clearly biased and we have to take this into account. I don't think bias is negatively impacting reliability in every of these cases, but I would label the historians pretty suspect (yellow in RSP terms). Hell, even quite respected scholars as Norman Davies commit stupid blunders. Given that all the reviews of that particular book but one was favourable, and that one proved to be actually correct in one of its aspects (factual errors), I'm extra careful after that to remove minoritarian viewpoints. True, the IPN's historians might be disinforming - all the more reason to find sources stating this.

The Polish version IMHO covers it sort of OK in their last section, but maybe a sentence or two about the substance of rebuttal and some expansion of the IPN historians' complaints are in order. As the other reviews have been almost unanimously positive (at least basing on those presented), we can frame it as "controversial in Poland - Polish govt-affiliated/right-wing historians were critical, but otherwise it received positive reviews, both from other Polish historians and from non-Polish ones".

Do we actually have a reliable source saying that "reviews published by Poland's Institute of National Remembrance have criticized Dalej jest noc for ...", or is that us editorializing by SYNTH the primary sources themselves (e.g. reviews published by the IPN) to say this? They are in the Polish article + those that got deleted. It's not editorialising, it's a summary of their ideas. If articles published in IPN-affiliated outlets or among the conservative historians simply repeat the same thing, we don't need a source to say that this indeed is a case, other than the reviews themselves + wikilinks to respective historians where their political/historical orientation is stated. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 02:53, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Do we actually have a reliable source saying that "reviews published by Poland's Institute of National Remembrance have criticized Dalej jest noc for ...", or is that us editorializing by SYNTH the primary sources themselves (e.g. reviews published by the IPN) to say this? Besides, if this (e.g. reviews published by the IPN) is the only remaining scholarly criticism of the book (e.g. it was mainly criticized by IPN's publications), which otherwise received positive reviews, it may be telling in light of BLP and the controversy. It is not unusual some sources are generally reliable but there is a period where they are not, or where other considerations apply, which may well be the case of IPN since 2018. Davide King (talk) 06:59, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

@Szmenderowiecki: I apologize -- I did not mean to suggest that all of the research published by these historians is unreliable. However, in this case we are not talking about research but about polemical statements of government employees, from the organization whose stated mission is to "protect the reputation of the Republic of Poland and the Polish Nation." Your assessment, instead of allaying BLP concerns, make them more prominent. --K.e.coffman (talk) 16:40, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Calling scholars and historians "government employees" is not ideal. Some of them work at the Institute of National Remembrance, so what? Others work elsewhere, many teach or taught at universities. Penz for example works in the Institute of Slavic Studies of the Polish Academy of Sciences. Sure, she is also salaried by the gov't. It's hard to find any scholar working in Poland who is not, as there are very few reputable private research institutions in Poland. Btw, Jewish Historical Institute is also sponsored by the Polish gov't. Is it also tainted by accepting their funding? C'mon. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:01, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

The full quote was: ... polemical statements of government employees, from the organization whose stated mission is to "protect the reputation of the Republic of Poland and the Polish Nation". I'm talking about pl:Tomasz Domański (historyk), pl:Dawid Golik, Piotr Gontarczyk who are IPN employees. Karolina Panz of the Polish Academy of Sciences was not cited in our article, and consequently not removed by me as a source. Instead, she is a subject of an article by Golik because she's one of the contributors to Dalej jest noc. --K.e.coffman (talk) 05:22, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

So what I'm seeing here are 3 users clearly in favour of the restoration of the removed criticism, and 2 users are against it. The consensus appears to be to restore the text eliminated by K.e.Coffman. I'm going to act based on that. Thank you for participating in this consensus-building process. - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:24, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Two against? I counted one (K.e.coffman). Who's the other one? PS. Also, I thought there were four users in favour. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:25, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

@Piotrus: Are you the same Piotr Konieczny mentioned in Domański's review (p. 715, n. 141)? And don't you have a COI here because of having written this article about Grabowski? Levivich 03:25, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

No, and, per COI thread, no. But don't take my word for it. Ping User:Nableezy who closed said COIN thread and who I believe explicitly wrote that I don't have any COI w/ regards to Grabowski (and if I am wrong, I am sure he will correct me). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:24, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

The article you wrote about Grabowski wasn't in the COIN OP and only two editors mentioned it during the discussion, one saying you had a COI and the other saying they weren't sure because they hadn't looked into it, so that coin wasn't about this COI (although related). I note that you didn't think you had a COI from the Haaretz article before that COIN thread, but consensus was you did. I think you should reconsider the relationship between you and Grabowski and WP:BLPCOI. How can one professor criticize the work of another professor "in the real world" and then come to Wikipedia and edit articles about the other professor's work? How is that possibly not a COI? (I said this about Haaretz and I was right. Can we avoid another COIN here? Will you stop editing about Grabowski and his work? You can't publish criticisms of people's work and then edit the Wikipedia articles about them and their work. It's basic COI. Levivich 14:47, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

There was no consensus for a COI with Grabowski in the COIN thread because, as you note, only two editors even saw fit to mention it, and the arguments about a slippery slope applied to editing here in that it would allow for some person to disqualify editors on Wikipedia by writing harshly about them off-site, so I felt that argument was addressed and rebutted, but on the topic I dont know if publishing a column criticizing a column written by the subject here qualifies as a significant controversy or dispute with another individual—whether on- or off-wiki—or who is an avowed rival of that individual but that is a question for COIN and not one that one editor can assert and request that another editor follow his dictats to not edit. Not keeping this page on my watchlist, just responding to the ping. nableezy - 15:12, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

I request that you follow my dictat not to characterize requests as dictats. Otherwise thanks for chiming in. If Piotrus agrees he has a COI and will avoid the topic area, there is no need for a COIN. If he disagrees, then COIN can resolve the disagreement. That's why I ask the editor first instead of just running to COIN, and I think my approach is a better one than just going straight to COIN, even if you think that's "request[ing] that another editor follow his dictats to not edit" (which is a pretty funny contradiction in terms, like "asking someone to agree to demands"). So it's up to Piotrus. Levivich 15:20, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Per Nableezy, I do not have any COI regarding Grabowski, and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop trying to imply otherwise. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 18:24, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Nableezy didn't say you don't have a COI (did you not read what he just wrote? "No consensus" and "that is a question for COIN"), and I'm not implying you have a COI, I'm stating it explicitly. The last time I said you had a COI and you dismissed me, COIN found you had a COI. So I'm asking you: don't just wave me away, is there anything you want to consider or discuss, because if you just keep on editing about Grabowski, I might start a thread at COIN again (or maybe ARCA since COIN was such a mess last time). I don't think you can argue with people in the real world and also add negative information about them on Wikipedia at the same time: you have pick one, and you picked "real world" when you published that article. Levivich 18:30, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) For the record, I have very little interest in editing his biography. And the article here is not about him, he was just one of the two co-editors of the book, and I don't see what is the relevance that we had a polemic IRL to me copyediting this page. I am not particularly interested in working on this page further at the moment, but I will edit whatever articles I want, whenever I want, and if you don't like it, then go ahead and report me to whatever noticeboards you want. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 18:34, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

English translation

Is it out? The text needs updating, it seems to contradict itself right now. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:59, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Organization of the reviews

We should organize them - either alphabetically by author or (my preference) chronologically. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:38, 16 January 2022 (UTC)